Are They Being Duped?

[paramedicgirl]

There would be other issues- because if they go to Mass because they want a show, then they are going for the wrong reasons. If they have truly converted, they will accept the authority of the Holy Father- including his authority to change the liturgy.

They won’t be getting a show at the TLM. That only happens at Cardinal Mahony style NO Masses.

 

[ReConverted]

It’s sad, but this is one of the greatest demonic deceptions–it keeps those out of the ark of salvation who at one time might have joined her or who may even have been linked to her by desire. It is incredibly unreasonable to judge a religion by those who do not follow its precepts, instead of its objective truth/doctrine and by those who do adhere to it.

There’s a ton of wisdom in what you wrote here…

Thanks, I needed that!

 

[Brenda_V]

They won’t be getting a show at the TLM. That only happens at Cardinal Mahony style NO Masses.

I beg to differ. Those who have or are converting are looking for the “bells and smells” type of “show”. In other words, a TLM or a properly celebrated NO .

We don’t see that as a “show” but I can guarantee non-Catholics or converts might.

The Cardinal Mahoney Masses everyone is decrying and if true (I have no absolute proof, just peoples word for it) is a travesty! All knowledgable Catholics and non-Catholics will recognize it as such.

I am personally at a loss as to how someone can come to the conclusion that the Catholic Church is the One True Church, go to RCIA and not even know what the community is like. Seems to be what some of those blogs are saying anyway.

Brenda V.

 

[paramedicgirl]

I beg to differ. Those who have or are converting are looking for the “bells and smells” type of “show”. In other words, a TLM or a properly celebrated NO .

We don’t see that as a “show” but I can guarantee non-Catholics or converts might.

The Cardinal Mahoney Masses everyone is decrying and if true (I have no absolute proof, just peoples word for it) is a travesty! All knowledgable Catholics and non-Catholics will recognize it as such.

I am personally at a loss as to how someone can come to the conclusion that the Catholic Church is the One True Church, go to RCIA and not even know what the community is like. Seems to be what some of those blogs are saying anyway.

Brenda V.

What I wonder is if the Traditional parishes even use the RCIA program or if they use something else. The only one I know about is the SSPX that my sister goes to and the priest teaches the adult converts the Baltimore catechism.

Does anyone know what FSSPand ICRSS do for adult converts?

 

[jmcrae]

I beg to differ. Those who have or are converting are looking for the “bells and smells” type of “show”. In other words, a TLM or a properly celebrated NO .

We don’t see that as a “show” but I can guarantee non-Catholics or converts might.

I agree. It’s definitely something “different” and completely outside of their ordinary experience.

I am personally at a loss as to how someone can come to the conclusion that the Catholic Church is the One True Church, go to RCIA and not even know what the community is like. Seems to be what some of those blogs are saying anyway.

I don’t “get” that, either, and the only thing I can think is that these RCIAs are not requiring participants to attend Mass regularly, and not inviting them to parish events. Or else for some reason, the participants are not availing themselves of these opportunities, which also happens from time to time - but I really don’t understand how someone could go to a bad RCIA (one that is full of heresy and/or not offering opportunities outside of class time to get to know the parish) and not notice that there is a problem - how would they attend an RCIA like that, and then be all surprised after the fact that, “Oh, this parish doesn’t use Latin or incense at Mass”?

All I can say to that is, Hello? Anybody home? You’ve been coming here for how long? (Several months at least, in most cases.) And didn’t even notice any of this, before?

 

[guanophore]

Did you go the Byzantine Church because you didn’t find what you were looking for in the NO Church?

No, I was in the process of studying the schisms, and attended a Greek Orthodox Church, and was studying the reasons for the lack of communion between them and the Latin Church. I was making my way through the phone book, visiting parishes. When I got to the Byzantine, I liked it so much I stayed!

I really like the traditional style of Mass in the Eastern churches. I feel as though I am immersed in something that really does go back 2000 years. Where as, it might be difficult for the Apostles to recognize some of these New Order Masses.

 

[paramedicgirl]

I don’t “get” that, either, and the only thing I can think is that these RCIAs are not requiring participants to attend Mass regularly, and not inviting them to parish events. Or else for some reason, the participants are not availing themselves of these opportunities, which also happens from time to time - but I really don’t understand how someone could go to a bad RCIA (one that is full of heresy and/or not offering opportunities outside of class time to get to know the parish) and not notice that there is a problem - how would they attend an RCIA like that, and then be all surprised after the fact that, “Oh, this parish doesn’t use Latin or incense at Mass”?

All I can say to that is, Hello? Anybody home? You’ve been coming here for how long? (Several months at least, in most cases.) And didn’t even notice any of this, before?

I still think it is because they are looking for the traditional setting of the Church, and they have gone to a Novus Ordo RCIA program instead, probably because that is all that is available to them.

I still wonder about the adult education in the TLM parishes. Can anyone provide info on this?

 

[jmcrae]

I still think it is because they are looking for the traditional setting of the Church, and they have gone to a Novus Ordo RCIA program instead, probably because that is all that is available to them.

Yes, but that doesn’t explain why they don’t notice their surroundings while they are actually in the very room and with the very people they later “didn’t know” were in the Church, and actually going to the very Mass that later “unexpectly springs upon them” after they are received into the Church.

I still wonder about the adult education in the TLM parishes. Can anyone provide info on this?

St. Anthony’s does have an RCIA, but I don’t know who runs it - whether it’s the TLM community, or the regular community.

 

[paramedicgirl]

Yes, but that doesn’t explain why they don’t notice their surroundings while they are actually in the very room and with the very people they later “didn’t know” were in the Church, and actually going to the very Mass that later “unexpectly springs upon them” after they are received into the Church.

Maybe they give it their best shot for awhile, hoping they can tough out the RCIA, which they all say is defective, hoping that after they get through it, they can focus on real Catholicism.

If only more priests or qualified people would teach RCIA.

 

[jmcrae]

If only more priests or qualified people would teach RCIA.

I echo your prayer.

I also wish that RCIA leaders would not over-complicate things - it is really a very simple process, and there is no need to “reinvent the wheel.”

 

[asquared]

I Why is this happening to these new converts? Their disappointment is evident in what they feel they are not receiving at the hands of the Church they came to believe in. The tradition they were seeking and expecting was replaced with innovation. If there were more indult parishes available to the Catholic faithful, this would not be such an issue.

the converts such as those whose stories are posted (one link did not work) made the mistake of placing their faith in people–particular pastors, particular members of certain parishes–rather than in the Church itself, the Church established by Christ and given his authority on earth. They made the further mistake of mistaking the peripherals for the essentials of faith. Had they continued worshipping with the Church, instead of seeking out experiences that conformed to their personal preferences, they would have gradually come to fuller understanding and appreciation of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and Christ’s action in forming us as community through His sacrifice. Too bad they worried about music, posture and other non-essentials instead of going for the essence of Christ’s Real Presence among us.

 

[BobP123]

Mass is not about pleasing our senses. It’s about praising God. And if that means speaking in boring old English in an ugly modern church, then so be it.

Well, if willingness to be subjected to boredom is your way of praising God, that’s very sad. God has given us something better. And I would think I would try to find the best way to praise Him, even if I have to drive 100 miles.

 

[rwoehmke]

Even in a situation that’s that bad (which of course I hope is rare) wouldn’t they notice?
Wouldn’t they say to their sponsor or to one of the leaders, “Hey, this isn’t what I thought it was going to be. Where is the church with the Latin and the incense and all of that?”
I guess what I’m stuck on is how they got through one year or two years of discernment in RCIA, became Catholic, and then noticed that their parish wasn’t using incense or doing the Latin Mass. (Or whatever their expectation was.)

I have instructed RCIA for about 15 years now and in our program the candidates/catachumens are exposed to the Mass from beginning to end every Sunday. We do not dismiss after the Liturgy of the Word for practical reasons. I just can’t understand how anyone could end up getting what they were not led to expect; either liberal RCIA treatment and being dropped into a traditional Church or traditional RCIA and then being dropped into a liberal Church. Just doesn’t make any sense for me.
Richard Rohr, Thomas Groome, Anthony Tambasco, Sr. Joan Chittister, Andrew Sullivan, and John Dominic Crossan. I have heard of only two of these authors and have read none of them and I have been around since 1935. Maybe I am deprived.

 

[jmcrae]

Well, if willingness to be subjected to boredom is your way of praising God, that’s very sad. God has given us something better. And I would think I would try to find the best way to praise Him, even if I have to drive 100 miles.

To my way of thinking, it is a matter of accepting the gift that God is giving us without pulling this spoiled-brat routine of wanting something that God for whatever reason is not choosing to give us at this particular moment in time.

The Mass is the Mass: it is just as valid even if the Altar is a cardboard box or the hood of a car - hopefully in most cases we can do better than that, but even if we can’t, it’s still the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ, which they don’t have in even the fanciest, hip-hoppiest, clappin’ and dancin’ non-Catholic churches.

 

[paramedicgirl]

I just checked and all the links worked.

I was really hoping to get some (name removed by moderator)ut from Latin Mass Catholics, in particular to find out how they instruct their adult converts to the faith. We know how the NO does it, with RCIA, and that appears to be a big part of the problem here. Can anyone come on here and say how or if the Latin Mass initiation is different?

 

[jmcrae]

I just checked and all the links worked.

I was really hoping to get some (name removed by moderator)ut from Latin Mass Catholics, in particular to find out how they instruct their adult converts to the faith. We know how the NO does it, with RCIA, and that appears to be a big part of the problem here. Can anyone come on here and say how or if the Latin Mass initiation is different?

RCIA is the normative means to become a Catholic. I don’t know of any dispensation from that. Even those who are receiving private instruction from a priest participate in all of the Rites of RCIA that pertain to them.

By the way, the RCIA comes from the Vatican and is mandated by the Pope - it’s not something “invented” at the parish level, or “imposed” by a group of lay people. Yes, it is badly implemented in far too many cases, but it’s not something we can just do away with on our own authority.

 

[paramedicgirl]

RCIA is the normative means to become a Catholic. I don’t know of any dispensation from that. Even those who are receiving private instruction from a priest participate in all of the Rites of RCIA that pertain to them.

By the way, the RCIA comes from the Vatican and is mandated by the Pope - it’s not something “invented” at the parish level, or “imposed” by a group of lay people. Yes, it is badly implemented in far too many cases, but it’s not something we can just do away with on our own authority.

So, I imagine then that at the Latin Mass parishes, it must be taught by the priest. They seem to be very involved in the religious education and salvation of their parishioners from what I have seen and heard from others.

 

[jmcrae]

So, I imagine then that a the Latin Mass parishes, it must be taught by the priest. They seem to be very involved in the religious education and salvation of their parishioners from what I have seen and heard from others.

I expect that the RCIA team leader would be the priest in that case, for sure.

 

[paramedicgirl]

I expect that the RCIA team leader would be the priest in that case, for sure.

Then the problem that this thread is centered around (people not being happy with their instruction, and feeling deprived of the true faith and traditions of the Church) would be less likely to exist if they were to find such a parish, I think.

 

[jmcrae]

Then the problem that this thread is centered around (people not being happy with their instruction, and feeling deprived of the true faith and traditions of the Church) would be less likely to exist if they were to find such a parish, I think.

I’m guessing so.

The part I don’t really understand is why they aren’t seeking out these parishes, to begin with.

Not every RCIA is going to be suited to every participant, even if they were all teaching perfectly according to the Magesterium - there are differences in leadership styles,and I think it’s fair that if someone is uncomfortable, it’s okay for them to seek out a different teacher.

I also think that if someone is really unhappy with their RCIA, to the point where they are honestly convinced that they are being taught heresy, I don’t know why they wouldn’t try to find a parish where they are more comfortable - or at least bring it up to the people in charge that things don’t seem to be quite right.