Are those who do not receive Jesus in Holy Eucharist really Christians? Is it insanity for them to continue claiming to be Christians?

[Cinette]

**Come on Cinette, **
Never accept anyones correction that quickly. Research and verify for yourself dear. It is good for you and Peter could be wrong (I don’t think so, he is really smart! Don’t tell him I said that, He is stuck up enough )

I did not know that one needed to request but I am a revert remember and assume that other Catholics on CAF know better!!

 

[RobGentner]

I hate to be the proverbial wet-blanket, but that statement is a little misleading.

It would be better to say “If I were in an area where there was no Catholic Church I could attend the Greek Orthodox Church and request communion.” (Most likely, an Orthodox priest will not give you communion even if you ask, but there’s no harm in asking. Just like there’s no harm in an Anglican requesting communion from a Catholic priest, even though the Catholic priest will most likely refuse.)

**OK Peter, I did three different site searches. Easier than I thought it would be actually. I hate to admit it, but you are correct! I read that one of their Bishops got slammed for taking communion from one of our bishops! **
The strangest thing I read about their practices compared to ours is that in order to receive Holy Communion, a person has to fast at least three days or one week; there are circumstances when they fast 40 days like before Easter, before Christmas or 15 days before August 15th or before Christmas starting December 12th. There are also days that their Church asks her faithful to fast one day only to honor the feast day or the eve of a feast day, the same as ours. They have the same problems we seem to have with disagreements. I guess that proves that like all the rest of us they are only human!

Thanksf for the education. I am better for it!

 

[Peter_J]

Thank you for that correction:thumbsup:

Your welcome.

What if I just snuck in and consumned the host without permission? A sin? If so, why would it be?

I’ve wondered about that, too. (I don’t mean that I’ve considered doing it, just that I’ve thought about people doing it.) I’m sure that there are a large number of Protestants out there who have done that, i.e. gotten in line at either a Catholic or Orthodox parish, and received without telling the priest that they’re Protestant.

I would not make a blanket statement that it is always a sin, but I think it could be a sin.

 

[Peter_J]

P.S. Not to get off on a tangent, but I just remembered that a dozen years ago, it came out that President Clinton had received communion in a Catholic Church, because he was under the impression that all baptized Christians were welcome to do so. It’s not hard to imagine that a lot of other Protestants out there are under the same impression.

 

[JonNC]

P.S. Not to get off on a tangent, but I just remembered that a dozen years ago, it came out that President Clinton had received communion in a Catholic Church, because he was under the impression that all baptized Christians were welcome to do so. It’s not hard to imagine that a lot of other Protestants out there are under the same impression.

But if one is aware, that is deceit, and if not a sin, certainly not the right frame of mind to receive our Lord.

Jon

 

[RobGentner]

HAPPY THANKSGIVINGS EVERYONE!
**To All Authorized Personnel Only! **

P.S. Not to get off on a tangent, but I just remembered that a dozen years ago, it came out that President Clinton had received communion in a Catholic Church, because he was under the impression that all baptized Christians were welcome to do so.

I would have thought it would have burnt his tongue!

It’s not hard to imagine that a lot of other Protestants out there are under the same impression.

I know of some that have **taken our communion. I have told them and they didn’t do it again. **Ignorance does make it not a sin, as we both realize. I was amazed that we couldn’t normally take other Catholic communion. I had even been to some of their Masses but never thought about taking Communion.
Myself, I normally fast for the entire day until I take communion. Old Catholic here. Even when in military and now under medical exemption I still follow the old practice.

Those that do not receive Jesus in Communion can call themselves Christians but they won’t have eternal salvation. Why? Because Jesus said so Himself! It is not open to any interpretation. He repeated Himself to ensure that no misunderstanding could be possible. Yet some foolish Protestants still try and twist His words. How dumb can thet be? “Errrrr Jesus, I didn’t realize that you actually ment I had to eat your body and drink your blood!” I wonder where He will tell them to go?..

 

[JonNC]

=RobGentner;4460711I was surprised that you were Lutheran. What you said isn’t the way I undestand it. Although our faiths have came closer since Vacian II really big differences in beliefs and practices also remain.

While both churchs will bring communion to members of the community who are sick, us Catholics also maintain the practice of reserving the communion bread in the tabernacle which then becomes a place of prayer and devotion. I understood that you Lutherans do not hold the same belief that the presence of Christ continues in the bread and wine after the time and place of the celebration of the Eucharist.

iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/mosynod/web/sup-01.html
iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/mosynod/web/sup-02.html

This is a specific outline of Lutheran practice and theology regarding the Holy Eucharist. In short, Lutherans hold that the primary purpose of the Eucharist is held within the celebration itself, as was instituted by Christ Himself. Indeed, the Catholic Church acknowledges this, as well. Lutherans, therefore, limit Eucharistic adoration to that time frame. This is not, however, receptionism (what I was responding to), as the bread and wine become the body and blood at the time of consecration, not the time of reception. I would also say that I personally am not offended by the Catholic practice of Eucharistic adoration.

I know that you would also question our Catholic practice of offering Mass for the intentions of those who have died. While you believe in the value of offering prayers for those who have died, I have been told that your faith would have reservations regarding our Catholic belief that the Eucharist is effective as an “atoning sacrifice” for those who have already died. Is my understanding of the teaching of your faith incorrect, didn’t they teach you that?

This is a difference in Eucharistic understanding between our traditions. I like your term “reservations” better than “question”, as I believe Lutherans and Catholics are exploring our understandings about the Eucharist.

Also, us Catholics hold to the term “transubstantiation” to describe the reality of Christ’s presence in the Eucharist. We borrow that term from the philosophy of Aristotle to express the belief that during the Eucharist the substance of bread and wine is actually changed into the substance of the body and blood of Christ, while the accidents of bread and wine (what they look, feel and taste like) remain the same as they were before. I was told that Lutherans prefer to avoid the term transubstantiation and instead use other terms to describe your belief in the full reality of Christ’s presence which is thought to only there during the communion service.

You are correct. Luther used the term, “in, with, and under”. The Apology of the Augsburg Confession says:

The Tenth Article has been approved, in which we confess that we believe, that in the Lord’s Supper the body and blood of Christ are truly and substantially present, and are truly tendered, with those things which are seen, bread and wine, to those who receive the Sacrament. This belief we constantly defend, as the subject has been carefully examined and considered.

I prefer this as I see the His presence as a mystery.

While in the military, our Mass followed the Lutheran service I saw them “many times” throw the excess communion juice and things in the trash.

First, Lutherans do not use juice, as that is not what Christ used. Otherwise, this is a hideous and offensive abuse of the consecrated elements, regardless of one’s position on whether or not the body and blood of Christ remains. In my link above it describes the appropriate ways to handle unconsumed elements.
My personal belief is for them either to be reserved in a separate vessel, or consumed.

I knew it never was the real body and blood of my lord, but I always prayed for the souls of the people who didn’t even believe in their own version of Jesus. Poor lost souls, is how I have always thought of Lutherans. So very close to the truth. Only a 500 years old mistake separates you from eternal happiness..

Of course, as you might imagine, I disagree with you on the bolded line, and even Cardinal Ratzinger held our Eucharist in higher regard than that. As to the part I put in italics, I will resist the urge to think you are being condescending. Instead, I will assume you truly care about your fellow Chrstians, and will remind you of CCC #820 (I think).

I closing, I’ll add that I pray for the day that our traditions come to agreement on all aspects of the Eucharist, and eventually we can share His supper together again.

Jon

 

[avenger]

Jesus commanded us to “Eat My Flesh and Drink My Blood” multiple times in John 6 after one of the miracles He did multiplying the Loaves and Fishes to show us that it is by a miracle that He gives us is Body & Blood. Towards the end of the chapter many of Jesus’ own disciples (not the 12) left Him on this one issue.

So can anyone truly be a Christian who does not partake in Holy Eucharist - the reception of His True Body and True Blood?

Orthodox Christians and Eastern Catholic Christians begin receiving Holy Eucharist as infants immediately after Baptism and Chrismation during the Rite which includes the reception of all 3 Mysteries/Sacraments at once. It has always been, since the beginning of Christianity, those 3 Mysteries which is the initiation in to the Christian Family, the Christian Church.

I know that lots of people consider themselves Christian, but that doesn’t make them a Christian. I could consider myself a princess, act like I would think a princess should act, dress as a princess should dress, etc., but my thinking and believing I was a princess would certainly not make me a princess.

In fact if I went around claiming to be a princess I would be insane…so similarly isn’t it insanity for someone to consider themselves a Christian when they have not actually “married the prince” when they have never actually been initiated into the Christian Faith by way of Holy Baptism, Chrismation and receiving Holy Eucharist?

There are only two Churches which have valid Eucharist and Mysteries/Sacraments…the same two Churches which maintain an unbroken Apostolic Succession Line back to Jesus’ 12 Apostles. Those Churches are know today as the: Orthodox and Catholic Churches.

Pick one! Become one! And see what it is really like to actually be a Christian!

God Bless everyone! Let’s be sure to respect everyone’s opinions even if we should disagree with one another. God loves us all and we are to love each other.

LOL…no, insane is claimig only two churches have valid anything!

 

[brownjt]

iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/mosynod/web/sup-01.html
iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/mosynod/web/sup-02.html

This is a specific outline of Lutheran practice and theology regarding the Holy Eucharist. In short, Lutherans hold that the primary purpose of the Eucharist is held within the celebration itself, as was instituted by Christ Himself. Indeed, the Catholic Church acknowledges this, as well. Lutherans, therefore, limit Eucharistic adoration to that time frame. This is not, however, receptionism (what I was responding to), as the bread and wine become the body and blood at the time of consecration, not the time of reception. I would also say that I personally am not offended by the Catholic practice of Eucharistic adoration.

This is a difference in Eucharistic understanding between our traditions. I like your term “reservations” better than “question”, as I believe Lutherans and Catholics are exploring our understandings about the Eucharist.

You are correct. Luther used the term, “in, with, and under”. The Apology of the Augsburg Confession says:

I prefer this as I see the His presence as a mystery.

First, Lutherans do not use juice, as that is not what Christ used. Otherwise, this is a hideous and offensive abuse of the consecrated elements, regardless of one’s position on whether or not the body and blood of Christ remains. In my link above it describes the appropriate ways to handle unconsumed elements.
My personal belief is for them either to be reserved in a separate vessel, or consumed.

Of course, as you might imagine, I disagree with you on the bolded line, and even Cardinal Ratzinger held our Eucharist in higher regard than that. As to the part I put in italics, I will resist the urge to think you are being condescending. Instead, I will assume you truly care about your fellow Chrstians, and will remind you of CCC #820 (I think).

I closing, I’ll add that I pray for the day that our traditions come to agreement on all aspects of the Eucharist, and eventually we can share His supper together again.

Jon

Yes, It would do him well to read his CCC. and to remember the Parable of the 10 lepers…Which one do we think really went tto heaven (do not stop at Purgatory?..How about the others that did not even thank Jesus…?

 

[itsjustdave1988]

…So can anyone truly be a Christian who does not partake in Holy Eucharist - the reception of His True Body and True Blood?

Yes. Those baptized in Christ are Christian even if they have not yet or cannot canonically receive Holy Eucharist.

 

[JonNC]

Yes, It would do him well to read his CCC. and to remember the Parable of the 10 lepers…Which one do we think really went tto heaven (do not stop at Purgatory?..How about the others that did not even thank Jesus…?

I am always mindful of the fact that polemics go both ways. We don’t know what abuses Rob has unfairly endured from others simply because he is Catholic. So, keeping in mind Luther’s response to the 8th commandment,

We should fear and love God that we may not deceitfully belie, betray, slander, or defame our neighbor, but defend him, [think and] speak well of him, and put the best construction on everything.

I’m inclined to believe that he was expressing a sincere concern and love for his brothers and sisters in Christ.

Jon

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Amen, brother…

Okay this has already been argued over and over and over…on here. I suggest you look up one of those threads.