Are those who do not receive Jesus in Holy Eucharist really Christians? Is it insanity for them to continue claiming to be Christians?

[StMarina303ad]

One thing I did find interesting that you said was that the bible was greek. The new testament mostly, but dont forget aramaic and hebrew. The old testament is a larger text and is hebrew.

Actually the most ancient Old Testament is in Greek. When Hebrew was quickly becoming a lost language (kinda like Latin 2 decades ago), some dude in the government (emperor, governor or something like that) in Alexandria about 200 BC ordered for the Scribes to translate the O.T. Scriptures into the language of the people: Greek. This leader guy was not a Jew, but after 70 Scribes went into separate cells and did the translation and every single word was translated the exact same way (if you know another language, you’d realize that this is nearly impossible as there are so many ways to say the same thing) anyway, this was a direct intervention of the Holy Spirit and the government leader was floored realizing it was a miracle and he was converted to the Jewish Faith 200 years before Christ was born.

The OT that Jesus read was from this translation done by these 70 Scribes - it’s called the Septuigant. It wasn’t until after Jesus’ Resurrection in about 70 AD or so after the destruction of the Temple that the Jews of the time re-translated the Scriptures from the Greek back into Hebrew (without the assistance of the Holy Spirit as He lead the Christian Church by now, no longer the Jewish Faith), they also removed many books from the O.T. If you want to read a Bible in English that is translated from the Greek Septuigant (most accurate), then you are in luck, because the Orthodox Church has finally done an English Translation of these Sacred Scriptures as Jesus Himself read: orthodoxmarketplace.com/complete-orthodox-study-bible-nkjv-lxx-hardcover-pr-19169.html

Aramaic was a common spoken language of the people at the time of Christ, so there are a couple of words in Arabic, like “Talitha, kum” but included in those few passages are the Greek tranlation of the Aramaic "(which translated means, “Little girl, get up)” that were written in the Greek New Testament Scriptures, however, the books of the N.T. entire were written in Greek. Greek was an official language of the people at the time of Christ.

You can trust the Greek Orthodox Church’s understanding of Sacred Scripture because they have from the beginning, written the Bible in Greek and maintained the original language and they have accurate interpretation of it due to the Holy Spirit’s continued guidance and they have no problem with misunderstanding a passage due to a faulty translation.

 

[FollowTheWay]

I must give props to the greek for keeping the language (then again there is small differences from ancient greek) , sometimes I wish we all spoke hebrew. What im mentioning is mostly the Torah which was the most important during that time (of course they were on scrolls and not books) What they found in the rebuilding of the temple (2nd temple period) would be hebrew as well. I must say this has been a good conversation.

May the Lord be with you

 

[Peter_J]

It wasn’t until after Jesus’ Resurrection in about 70 AD or so after the destruction of the Temple that the Jews of the time re-translated the Scriptures from the Greek back into Hebrew

You like making claims without offering any evidence, don’t you?

 

[RobGentner]

A** great book on this subject by Brent Minge “Jesus Spoke Hebrew”. It points out many Dead Sea Scrolls are in Hebrew, many not in the Bible. Josephus said Jews spoke Hebrew as contrasted with Aramaic, the Mishnah says Hebrew is for speaking while Aramaic is for dirges and much more.
Here is a website for those that just want a book summary, interesting stuff.**
flexi.net.au/~mkendall/JESUSSPOKEHEBREW

Now remember that the OP is: Are those who do not receive Jesus in Holy Eucharist really Christians? [SIGN]Yes! [/SIGN] Is it insanity for them to continue claiming to be Christians? [SIGN]No! [/SIGN]

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T****hey can call themselves “Mouseketeers” (showing my age?) But, that doen’t mean they are saved.

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Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.” John 6:53-54 [SIGN]If you aren’t Catholic you aren’t eating His real body nor drink his real blood, You might as well eat Oreos and drink grape juice![/SIGN]

 

[Cinette]

Jesus commanded us to “Eat My Flesh and Drink My Blood” multiple times in John 6 after one of the miracles He did multiplying the Loaves and Fishes to show us that it is by a miracle that He gives us is Body & Blood. Towards the end of the chapter many of Jesus’ own disciples (not the 12) left Him on this one issue.

So can anyone truly be a Christian who does not partake in Holy Eucharist - the reception of His True Body and True Blood?

Orthodox Christians and Eastern Catholic Christians begin receiving Holy Eucharist as infants immediately after Baptism and Chrismation during the Rite which includes the reception of all 3 Mysteries/Sacraments at once. It has always been, since the beginning of Christianity, those 3 Mysteries which is the initiation in to the Christian Family, the Christian Church.

I know that lots of people consider themselves Christian, but that doesn’t make them a Christian. I could consider myself a princess, act like I would think a princess should act, dress as a princess should dress, etc., but my thinking and believing I was a princess would certainly not make me a princess.

In fact if I went around claiming to be a princess I would be insane…so similarly isn’t it insanity for someone to consider themselves a Christian when they have not actually “married the prince” when they have never actually been initiated into the Christian Faith by way of Holy Baptism, Chrismation and receiving Holy Eucharist?

There are only two Churches which have valid Eucharist and Mysteries/Sacraments…the same two Churches which maintain an unbroken Apostolic Succession Line back to Jesus’ 12 Apostles. Those Churches are know today as the: Orthodox and Catholic Churches.

Pick one! Become one! And see what it is really like to actually be a Christian!

God Bless everyone! Let’s be sure to respect everyone’s opinions even if we should disagree with one another. God loves us all and we are to love each other.

I have just come across this thread and wish to comment at the outset before I read the other posts.

Although the different Christian denominations do not believe in the Eucharist they are Baptised, they do believe in the Trinity, they do love Jesus and believe Him to be the Saviour of the World - so they are Christians.

It is through no fault of their own that they were not exposed to the fullness of the Truth. It is not their fault that Luther, Calvin, Zwingli and others broke away and started their own churches and from there more denominations arose. They were born into their faith and many have never been exposed to anything else. They have been taught that the Catholic Church is a lie, etc. etc. etc. It is through no fault of their own.

Many have studied and prayed about the truth and have come to embrace the fullness of truth.

Essentially these other Christian denominations cannot be considered to be anything else but Christian and they will be saved if they obey the commandments and strive to live holy lives.

That is my belief.

 

[Cinette]

Insofar as the Green Orthodox Church is concerned I have always considered them to be a sister to the Catholic Church.

I remember one evening Mass where the Deacon announced that there was to be a marriage at the Greek Orthodox Church next door but that the Priest had not arrived and that we were not to be surprised if the bride and groom came to us to be married. However the Priest turned up and it was not necessary.

I have also always been instructed that if I were in an area where there was no Catholic Church I could attend the Greek Orthodox Church and receive communion.

 

[Cinette]

I was thinking about this very issue while I was at work today, how Christianity must be the easiest club to join, all you have to do is say you are Christian, and everyone is supposed to be impressed.

But Jesus was pretty clear about what it took to follow him, and it was way more than lip service.

Even Catholics, going on about how they have the real presence and the real sacraments and the fullness of grace, most of them, you couldn’t tell that they have any of that stuff based on how they live and act.

It all seems pretty pathetic, say the right words, brag that you belong to the right church, but so very few actually seem to care a lick about LIVING as Jesus instructed, they want all those other things to save them, the prayers, the church they belong to, the fact that they keep saying repeatedly they are Christian, while using every loophole they can find to act like they are anything but a follower of Christ.

If people believed what they say they do, their lives would show it. If they can’t fool one another here on earth, I’m sure they are not fooling God or Christ either.

Christ said he is the way, follow him, if you love him keep his word.

He didn’t promise any loopholes for all the various practices that have since been cooked up in his name.

I don’t care how many novenas a person does or how many first Saturdays they can brag about, if they don’t live their faith day to day, if they don’t BE Christ to the people around them, they are kidding themselves.

If people really believed Christ is the way, they’d live it. They keep hoping someone will come up with an easier alternative way, a way that doesn’t involve them sacrificing pride, comfort, or bragging rights.

Calliope

You are saying nothing that is not true and in which we, as Catholics believe. Naturally we have to live our faith. Matt 25:31 is very clear and you have only to read the spiritual and corporal works to mercy to know that is what we, as Catholic Christians, are expected to live our lives. If we don’t we are then just giving lip service to our faith.

Similarly, if we say we are Catholic and vote pro-choice we are not living our faith.

You are saying nothing new

 

[Cinette]

Each week we recieve the Eucharist at our Lutheran church. Jesus in John 6 says this is my body and this is my blood we beleive that Jesus is indeed present in the Bread and wine. Regardless of what Catholics say Our eucharist is valid. ALl the Priest and apologist can say what ever they want you can never change my mind. Bring it on I can handle it When you attack me your being judgemental and just how christian is that?

I was told by a Lutheran minister that the flesh and blood is only present at the moment the communicant receives - anything that is left over is no longer the “body and blood” and is then fed to the birds.

 

[Cinette]

LOL, well as a Friend, at least I know where I stand with those of you who require baptism with water. I’m content to simply be a “Friend”…but I will call myself a Christian as well…it’s not any church or organization that defines who I am, it is the One who has spoken to my condition and brought me out of my darkness into His Light…I may not be a “christian” by your definition…but I am enough of one by mine.

1 Peter 3:18-22

“Truly, truly, I say to you, unlss one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God……”

Were you baptised in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit …of water and the Spirit? If not, then it is not a valid baptism according to the Bible.

 

[JonNC]

I was told by a Lutheran minister that the flesh and blood is only present at the moment the communicant receives - anything that is left over is no longer the “body and blood” and is then fed to the birds.

Receptionism is not confessional Lutheranism. Christ said, “this is my body”. He didn’t say, " this will be my body when you eat it".

Jon

 

[Eucharisted]

Jesus commanded us to “Eat My Flesh and Drink My Blood” multiple times in John 6 after one of the miracles He did multiplying the Loaves and Fishes to show us that it is by a miracle that He gives us is Body & Blood. Towards the end of the chapter many of Jesus’ own disciples (not the 12) left Him on this one issue.

So can anyone truly be a Christian who does not partake in Holy Eucharist - the reception of His True Body and True Blood?

Orthodox Christians and Eastern Catholic Christians begin receiving Holy Eucharist as infants immediately after Baptism and Chrismation during the Rite which includes the reception of all 3 Mysteries/Sacraments at once. It has always been, since the beginning of Christianity, those 3 Mysteries which is the initiation in to the Christian Family, the Christian Church.

I know that lots of people consider themselves Christian, but that doesn’t make them a Christian. I could consider myself a princess, act like I would think a princess should act, dress as a princess should dress, etc., but my thinking and believing I was a princess would certainly not make me a princess.

In fact if I went around claiming to be a princess I would be insane…so similarly isn’t it insanity for someone to consider themselves a Christian when they have not actually “married the prince” when they have never actually been initiated into the Christian Faith by way of Holy Baptism, Chrismation and receiving Holy Eucharist?

There are only two Churches which have valid Eucharist and Mysteries/Sacraments…the same two Churches which maintain an unbroken Apostolic Succession Line back to Jesus’ 12 Apostles. Those Churches are know today as the: Orthodox and Catholic Churches.

Pick one! Become one! And see what it is really like to actually be a Christian!

God Bless everyone! Let’s be sure to respect everyone’s opinions even if we should disagree with one another. God loves us all and we are to love each other.

This reminds me of a funny joke about the two peasants and the king.

One time there were these two peasants who lived in a kingdom, and the king decided to have a big feast for everyone. So he told everyone to wear their best and come to the castle.

So the first peasant dresses in his best and goes up to the castle, and the guards stop him.

“Have you come for the king’s feast?” They ask.

“Yes, and I am wearing my best,” replied the peasant.

So the guards let him. Than the other peasant came, but he was not wearing his best; he was wearing some dirty old rags. The guards stopped him.

“Have you come for the king’s feast?” They ask.

“Yes, but I’m not in my best,” replied the peasant.

So one of the guards pulled a lever and the peasant fell through a trapdoor.

 

[RobGentner]

I have just come across this thread and wish to comment at the outset before I read the other posts.
&c…Z&c…&c…
Essentially these other Christian denominations cannot be considered to be anything else but Christian and they will be saved if they obey the commandments and strive to live holy lives.

That is my belief.

**Hi Cinette, **

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**Where have you been? I thought the Mods got you. **

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**Basically you are correct :“IF” They do not know of the true faith or reject it. Actually, they may or may not be “christians” dear. **
**Currently there are 33,000 counterfeit denominations with 28,000 sub denominations totaling 61,000 different “Protestant” denominations with 1,375 doctrines and dogmas. Many of them “disagree with Jesus Himself and His teachings” Some even believe the Bible is a god of sorts (sola scriptura! Rather than God, they listen top their personal interpretation of what He said! :whacky: It would almost seem that every one of the 61,000 protestants denominations agree on only one thing: The RCC is wrong! I wonder what “demonic” force teaches them that? **

**Apostolicity is the sign of the true church. Even Protestants conceed that the RCC is the original church 2,000 years old. Apostolic succession is found in th e Catholic Church. None of the separate Churches have any valid claim to it. Ev en the ones that came from the cathoic church. Their herecies separated them from God and apostolic succession. All Protestant religions have broken away from Apostolic unity if they ever had it. Therefore their Eucharist might as well be an oreo cookie! And the blood, be just grape juice rather than wine as Jesus commanded! ******
As you realize our religion is the real Body of Christ with Jesus as our head. This cancerous curse that developed 500 years ago are indeed “christians” in the broadest sense of the word. About 100 are “very close to catholic” They may get “close to heaven” I wish them luck! Most protestant people are very good, caring, God fearing, charitable, loving people, desiring to serve jesus and His Father. However, when they get to heaven and say to God at the final judgment “We have cast out demons, we have prophesied, and we have done great works in Your Name.” What will the Father say? “Who are you? I do not know you; ye that doeth iniquity!”(Matt. 7:21)
*** God* will not be able to recognize those who have not follow the true path that Jesus instructed had to be followed. Jesus left His church. Those who turn from the RCC, turn from Jesus and unless through His mercy, they are saved they will perish the same as Catholics that live a protestant life rather than live up to the commandments of God and the precepts of the Catholic Church. **
**So it is so it will be! **

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** Father John Corapi’s said it best: " In the end you and I will be in Heaven or Hell for eternity, that is it, period!"**

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God Bless

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[RobGentner]

This reminds me of a funny joke about the two peasants and the king.

One time there were these two peasants who lived in a kingdom, and the king decided to have a big feast for everyone. So he told everyone to wear their best and come to the castle.

So the first peasant dresses in his best and goes up to the castle, and the guards stop him.

“Have you come for the king’s feast?” They ask.

“Yes, and I am wearing my best,” replied the peasant.

So the guards let him. Than the other peasant came, but he was not wearing his best; he was wearing some dirty old rags. The guards stopped him.

“Have you come for the king’s feast?” They ask.

“Yes, but I’m not in my best,” replied the peasant.

So one of the guards pulled a lever and the peasant fell through a trapdoor.

**Interesting. Now where is the 'funny" story you wanted to tell us? **

 

[Cinette]

Hi Rob!

I believe that most Protestants are not to blame. They have been born into the Protestant culture and many have been indoctrinated into believing a lot of the lies and misconceptions about the Catholic Church. I suppose, for some, the awesome Presence is mystical and strange. But Heaven is another world and our Churches (many of them) try to bring us into that other world.

Don’t forget there are people who make it a career to write books attacking the Catholic Church. There are hundreds if not thousands of these books. They propagate lies and are believed. One hears these lies repeated all the time by innocent people. We should pray for them and ask for the Holy Spirit’s guidance.

It is the Holy Spirit who guides us into all truth. It is us, the people, who must pray, ask and yield to the Holy Spirit.

For some so-called “christians” God is good business don’t forget - very lucrative. They have never heard of the spiritual and corporal works of mercy which emanate from Matt 25:31. These works of mercy are guidelines for EVERY Christian really.

I have been very moved by many conversion stories where what prompts Faith is simply entering a Catholic Church and coming before the Tabernacle! People who were atheists who suddenly, without warning, come to believe - just like that! Each and every conversion story is different.

 

[Cinette]

**Interesting. Now where is the 'funny" story you wanted to tell us? **

That “funny story” was tragic really!

:crying: :crying:

 

[Peter_J]

I have also always been instructed that if I were in an area where there was no Catholic Church I could attend the Greek Orthodox Church and receive communion.

I hate to be the proverbial wet-blanket, but that statement is a little misleading.

It would be better to say “If I were in an area where there was no Catholic Church I could attend the Greek Orthodox Church and request communion.” (Most likely, an Orthodox priest will not give you communion even if you ask, but there’s no harm in asking. Just like there’s no harm in an Anglican requesting communion from a Catholic priest, even though the Catholic priest will most likely refuse.)

 

[RobGentner]

Receptionism is not confessional Lutheranism. Christ said, “this is my body”. He didn’t say, " this will be my body when you eat it".

Jon

**Hi Jon, **

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**I was surprised that you were Lutheran. What you said isn’t the way I undestand it. Although our faiths have came closer since Vacian II really big differences in beliefs and practices also remain. **
**While both churchs will bring communion to members of the community who are sick, us Catholics also maintain the practice of reserving the communion bread in the tabernacle which then becomes a place of prayer and devotion. I understood that you Lutherans do not hold the same belief that the presence of Christ continues in the bread and wine after the time and place of the celebration of the Eucharist. I know that you would also question our Catholic practice of offering Mass for the intentions of those who have died. While you believe in the value of offering prayers for those who have died, I have been told that your faith would have reservations regarding our Catholic belief that the Eucharist is effective as an “atoning sacrifice” for those who have already died. **
**Is my understanding of the teaching of your faith incorrect, didn’t they teach you that? ****Also, us Catholics hold to the term “transubstantiation” to describe the reality of Christ’s presence in the Eucharist. We borrow that term from the philosophy of Aristotle to express the belief that during the Eucharist the substance of bread and wine is actually changed into the substance of the body and blood of Christ, while the accidents of bread and wine (what they look, feel and taste like) remain the same as they were before. I was told that Lutherans prefer to avoid the term transubstantiation and instead use other terms to describe your belief in the full reality of Christ’s presence which is thought to only there during the communion service. **
**While in the military, our Mass followed the Lutheran service I saw them “many times” throw the excess communion juice and things in the trash. I knew it never was the real body and blood of my lord, but I always prayed for the souls of the people who didn’t even believe in their own version of Jesus. Poor lost souls, is how I have always thought of Lutherans. So very close to the truth. Only a 500 years old mistake separates you from eternal happiness… **
Since I am not Lutheran, I may not have not done full justice to your Lutheran position on the Eucharist, and apologize. Sometimes we are just as misinformed as to your beliefs as you are ours. Or maybe you personally have been misinformed or misunderstood what yur church teaches. (We have Catholics like that also! ) . I welcome any correction from someone who knows more.

 

[Cinette]

I hate to be the proverbial wet-blanket, but that statement is a little misleading.

It would be better to say “If I were in an area where there was no Catholic Church I could attend the Greek Orthodox Church and request communion.” (Most likely, an Orthodox priest will not give you communion even if you ask, but there’s no harm in asking. Just like there’s no harm in an Anglican requesting communion from a Catholic priest, even though the Catholic priest will most likely refuse.)

Thank you for that correction:thumbsup:

 

[RobGentner]

I hate to be the proverbial wet-blanket, but that statement is a little misleading.

It would be better to say “If I were in an area where there was no Catholic Church I could attend the Greek Orthodox Church and request communion.” (Most likely, an Orthodox priest will not give you communion even if you ask, but there’s no harm in asking. Just like there’s no harm in an Anglican requesting communion from a Catholic priest, even though the Catholic priest will most likely refuse.)

OK Peter, You have me researching now!

** I have never heard we had to “request” I did know that when "unavailable " we could take their communion and they could take ours. Let me get back to you. I know you are normally correct so I won’t dig too much. Just verify! What if I just snuck in and consumned the host without pernission? A sin? If so, why would it be?**

 

[RobGentner]

Thank you for that correction:thumbsup:

**Come on Cinette, **
Never accept anyones correction that quickly. Research and verify for yourself dear. It is good for you and Peter could be wrong (I don’t think so, he is really smart! Don’t tell him I said that, He is stuck up enough )