Are transgendered people allowed to get married or be in relationships?

[TheRealJuliane]

Labiaplasty makes the neovagina visually indistinguishable from a cis vagina. The neovagina is also capable of being aroused and producing orgasm. You do realize women are capable of orgasm, I hope?

I don’t need to hold my breath for the development of a neouterus because developments in designer organs are being made at an excellent rate. My guess would be less than ten years. And no, I’m not interested in your opinion on my prediction.

You need a class in anatomy and physiology. A woman’s vagina is not capable of being aroused, nor of producing orgasm. That would be the clitoris.

 

[CopticChristian]

You need a class in anatomy and physiology. A woman’s vagina is not capable of being aroused, nor of producing orgasm. That would be the clitoris.

Real,

Orgasm is percieved in the mind based on externals. There is of course as you know the clitoris and G-spot. Concerning the parallel however there is this.

Real Vagina, clitoris, G-spot, Uterus, fallopian tube, fimbria and ovary

Neovagina, an inverted penis with nerve endings that remain and can be stimulated WITHOUT a CLITORIS, WITHOUT A G-SPOT, UTERUS, FALLOPIAN TUBE, FIMBRIA OR OVARY

A TRANSGENDER MAN WITH AN INVERTED PENIS HAVING SEXUAL RELATIONS WITH ANOTHER MAN WITH OR WITHOUT ORGASM IS GAY.

In the context of the OP should not be allowed to get married and could be in a nonsexual relationship based on the OHCAC.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

CopticChristian;9402385:

Viv,

If you have CAIS then let us know the issues you dealt with. If not then stop rescuing. Speak for yourself. I am troubled by dysfunctional behavior that transgenders exhibit and in this context unless you are CAIS there can be no discussion.

Why try to dictate to me what I can or can’t say about the thread topic?

I think it is important to discuss the injustice that would be done to transgender people’s relationships if the Vatican ever made an official public policy that said gender transition is not valid.

If you were CAIS, you would have said so already and the discussion would go on a different track as CopticChristian made clear. You know it.

Not being CAIS but a man who thinks he is a woman, wants to be a woman, this talk of yours of having a functioning uterus one day is even more insane

Why do you consider it nonsense to construct a new uterus for someone? Or is it that you merely hate the idea that a trans woman might actually be able to fulfill the Catholic criteria for being married one day?

, not to mention the delusion that the Church would one day approve of trans people marrying in the sex they wish to have but were not born with, no matter if they have undergone surgery and hormones to change their outward sexual appearance.

Such hatred and nastiness seems rather strange for someone who claims to be a Christian.

Repeating the word hate or hatred in every other post does not make your allegation true. If you wish to be taken seriously, find a way to argue using reason and stop punctuating your expressed thoughts with useless emotion and claims of hatred and injustice without basis.

 

[Cherry5]

Good News Just out:
"the Ontario Legislature, members of all three parties in Ontario stood to support the long-awaited passage of Toby’s Act, a bill the NDP MPP has been championing for years. The bill is also known under the more cumbersome title of Bill 33, An Act to amend the Human Rights Code with respect to gender identity and gender expression. "
“The passage of this bill marks a changing in the tides for the trans movement in Canada. Similar bills are being considered in Manitoba and at the federal level. The House of Commons, too, seems poised to pass a similar bill after seven years of trying.
This movement is critical, DiNovo said, as trans people face the highest rates of suicide and poverty of any marginal group.”
“This victory for the trans community comes on the heels of the passage of Bill 13, the anti-bullying law that will work towards including gay-straight alliances in all Ontario schools.”

The rest of the world will follow soon. We will have to learn to love our neighbors whether we like it or not.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Real,

Orgasm is percieved in the mind based on externals. There is of course as you know the clitoris and G-spot. Concerning the parallel however there is this.

Real Vagina, clitoris, G-spot, Uterus, fallopian tube, fimbria and ovary

Neovagina, an inverted penis with nerve endings that remain and can be stimulated WITHOUT a CLITORIS, WITHOUT A G-SPOT, UTERUS, FALLOPIAN TUBE, FIMBRIA OR OVARY

A TRANSGENDER MAN WITH AN INVERTED PENIS HAVING SEXUAL RELATIONS WITH ANOTHER MAN WITH OR WITHOUT ORGASM IS GAY.

In the context of the OP should not be allowed to get married and could be in a nonsexual relationship based on the OHCAC.

Oh. Ewwwwwww. Inverted penis? Ewwwwww… That is still a man, just with a messed-up penis. This thread has now gone officially into “near occasion of sin” category for me. Goodbye!

 

[Viviphilia]

You are a man hoping, fantasizing about being a woman, fantasizing about cloning a uterus, and as it concerns transgenders I doubt it would aid anything. I see that you have a propensity to want to have the last word.

I am a woman. Your deliberate misgendering is quite rude. I do not fantasize about being a woman and I do not fantasize about cloning a uterus. You’re dishonestly putting words in my mouth.

I don’t care about “having the last word.” I’m here to learn about Catholic beliefs, and you have bee most helpful in my achieving my goals. Thank you, and please do go on.

I rest my case. Transgender men having a relationship with a man is a gay man. The Vatican will not change this position.

You appear to be dictating to the Vatican what they can or cannot change. I’m not sure that’s appropriate.

The Vatican has no such position on transgender people. You are basing your position on rumors. It appears to me that the Vatican has wisely refused to take a public stance on gender transitions because they are wise enough to know that the debate is ongoing. I predict that they will make a decision which reflects the teachings of Jesus Christ, which are always merciful and will no doubt be of benefit to the relationships of trans folk.

 

[Viviphilia]

You need a class in anatomy and physiology. A woman’s vagina is not capable of being aroused, nor of producing orgasm. That would be the clitoris.

You’re correct. I should have referred to the neoclitoris, which can produce orgasm when in a proper relationship as defined by the Church.

 

[Viviphilia]

Orgasm is percieved in the mind based on externals. There is of course as you know the clitoris and G-spot. Concerning the parallel however there is this.

Real Vagina, clitoris, G-spot, Uterus, fallopian tube, fimbria and ovary

Neovagina, an inverted penis with nerve endings that remain and can be stimulated WITHOUT a CLITORIS, WITHOUT A G-SPOT, UTERUS, FALLOPIAN TUBE, FIMBRIA OR OVARY

A TRANSGENDER MAN WITH AN INVERTED PENIS HAVING SEXUAL RELATIONS WITH ANOTHER MAN WITH OR WITHOUT ORGASM IS GAY.

In the context of the OP should not be allowed to get married and could be in a nonsexual relationship based on the OHCAC.

Penile inversion is not the only technique to create a neovagina. There are several techniques. That is something one would reasonably expect a professional to know.

Also a “transgender man” is a female-to-male and doesn’t have a penis to work with. Since the Church does not have a public position on transgender relationships, then a trans man being in a relationship with a cis man would probably be acceptable. However, I suspect such a marriage might not be approved, it’s difficult to say.

 

[Viviphilia]

If you were CAIS, you would have said so already and the discussion would go on a different track as CopticChristian made clear. You know it.

Not being CAIS but a man who thinks he is a woman, wants to be a woman, this talk of yours of having a functioning uterus one day is even more insane

, not to mention the delusion that the Church would one day approve of trans people marrying in the sex they wish to have but were not born with, no matter if they have undergone surgery and hormones to change their outward sexual appearance.

Repeating the word hate or hatred in every other post does not make your allegation true. If you wish to be taken seriously, find a way to argue using reason and stop punctuating your expressed thoughts with useless emotion and claims of hatred and injustice without basis.

Did you ever apologize for the false accusations you made against me?

Part of being in a relationship with a trans woman includes apologizing for one’s mistakes. Apologizing is a healing experience and will probably make you feel better if you just put your pride aside and get it over with.

 

[fix]

Indeed there is a bias - towards reluctant physicians who lack the courage to make the proper diagnosis of transsexuality. The Wpath SoC gives them the guidelines they need to delay or deny medical care to transsexuals who need it.

Your caution is justified. Much evil has been done in the name of medical science. However, if you study the history of transsexuality, you will find that it is transsexuals themselves who have to beg doctors into doing these operations. It isn’t doctors pushing the transsexuals into them.

Surgical Sex

 

[InSearchofGrace]

Did you ever apologize for the false accusations you made against me?

Part of being in a relationship with a trans woman includes apologizing for one’s mistakes. Apologizing is a healing experience and will probably make you feel better if you just put your pride aside and get it over with.

Yes, I would humbly apologize, but what exactly are the false accusations made that you attribute to me?

Is CAF now your drama stage of choice?
,

 

[Viviphilia]

Yes, I would humbly apologize, but what exactly are the false accusations made that you attribute to me?

They are found in post 188.

Is CAF now your drama stage of choice?
,

I’m sorry but I don’t understand what you mean by “drama stage of choice.” Could you please elaborate? Does that have anything to do with the loving relationships that transgender folks often engage in?

 

[Mark_poole]

Such hatred and nastiness seems rather strange for someone who claims to be a Christian.

And a New Scientist article from 1994 from someone who claims to be a professional? Hmm, that seems a little fishy.

I don’t know why you’re talking about transplants when the technology for self-cloned organs already exists. Once the ability to create a self-cloned uterus is invented, which seems reasonably likely given the state of current technology, it should greatly aid transgender people in their relationships with others, don’t you think?

You hit the nail on the head Viviphilia. If you read his post, and there are so many, It is creepy. He is very narrow in his thinking and full of hate, and totally lacking in compassion. We should pray for him.

 

[Mark_poole]

Such hatred and nastiness seems rather strange for someone who claims to be a Christian.

And a New Scientist article from 1994 from someone who claims to be a professional? Hmm, that seems a little fishy.

I don’t know why you’re talking about transplants when the technology for self-cloned organs already exists. Once the ability to create a self-cloned uterus is invented, which seems reasonably likely given the state of current technology, it should greatly aid transgender people in their relationships with others, don’t you think?

Since the 1960s, four American-born Catholics have left the church for every one who has converted, according to a 2009 Pew study. We have to fight to keep members in the Church. He is very focused on homosexuals. I think he must be a closet homosexual, one that really hates himself.

A very sad case he is.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

They are found in post 188.

What I said

It is also unfair to charge that such medical professionals are unChristian for refusing to be part of any SRS and transitioning options.

The relevant quotes by you, whereby you claim a false accusation:

First, I did not make an accusation that anyone was being unChristian. What I actually said was that I thought his attitude seemed “rather strange.”

Based on these by you

You seem a little proud of denying medical treatment to people who are suffering. I find that a rather strange attitude for a Christian.

Such hatred and nastiness seems rather strange for someone who claims to be a Christian.

The meaning is the same, the context not contradictory.

You are in essence indicating that CopticChristian was being unChristian of unChristian like. If you don’t concede it, were you not casting aspersions to his being a Christian because he has not agreed with you? The only inaccuracy I made is I pluralized medical professionals, instead of referring to CC.

Apology not forthcoming. Not playing your emotional extortion. I bet you will say you don’t understand, please explain. Same sort of question and sort of answer below.

I’m sorry but I don’t understand what you mean by “drama stage of choice.” Could you please elaborate? Does that have anything to do with the loving relationships that transgender folks often engage in?

Nay. It refers to your unproven and numerous claims of hatred and injustice in postings you do not like in this forum.

On another thread you said

All I’m asking is to not be murdered because I feel that I belong on the other side of the binary from where I was born.

High dramatics there. CAF the stage.

If anybody needs to apologize, I think it’s you because you insinuated that CC was not a doctor. You were referring to CC, who did not call you on

Oh right, we’re all “doctors” on the internet, aren’t we? * If he feels the need to make the claim, he can back it up with verification or stop with the appeal to authority fallacy and start treating others as intellectual equals instead of being unjustifiably condescending.

and a quack with this quote directed at him

A practicing physician who ignores research on which therapies are effective is a quack.

Your posts are rich with ad hominems, yet you are quick to make the charge of others on weak or no ground.

,

 

[CopticChristian]

I saw this on the news recently and out of curiosity, I want to know if transgendered people are allowed to get married / be in relationships, or does the CC still recognize it as a gay relationship?

Viv has expressed that posting is to know what the Catholic Church position is on Transgender. Viv has posted more than enough on hope, fantasy, desire and all I put forth is reality. In answer to the OP this is what I find…

1. Marriage in the Catechism is man/woman. The homosexual/transgender wants to change this. If there was any hope of the Catholic Church changing it’s position or issuing a statement then the Catechism would have to be reissued with statements that conform to that notion and that is unlikely.

scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c3a7.htm

ARTICLE 7
THE SACRAMENT OF MATRIMONY
1601 "The matrimonial covenant, by which a man and a woman establish between themselves a partnership of the whole of life, is by its nature ordered toward the good of the spouses and the procreation and education of offspring; this covenant between baptized persons has been raised by Christ the Lord to the dignity of a sacrament."84

1. Holy Orders in the Catechism is men only based on the High Priest Christ. The homosexual/transgender wants to change this. This would impute aberrancy to our High Priest Christ Himself and that will not happen.

christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/orders.html

ARTICLE 6 - THE SACRAMENT OF HOLY ORDERS
1536 Holy Orders is the sacrament through which the mission entrusted by Christ to his apostles continues to be exercised in the Church until the end of time: thus it is the sacrament of apostolic ministry. It includes three degrees: episcopate, presbyterate, and diaconate.
(On the institution and mission of the apostolic ministry by Christ, see above, no. 874 ff. Here only the sacramental means by which this ministry is handed on will be treated.)

So there can be no issue of statement for the transgender that too is fantasy. What the homosexual/transgender is asking for is wishful thinking.

On the other hand I like and respect Father Hardin and he posts this…I suggest everyone including Viv read this.

therealpresence.org/archives/Chastity/Chastity_014.htm

1. What is the most recent and authoritative defense of homosexuality by professed Catholic members of the hierarchy?

It was part of a conference given in Pittsburgh in the winter of 1997. Again, the quotation is lengthy, but is worth giving in full.

“The most important thing that we can do in our pastoral care is to create a church community where gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgendered people can be truly open about who they are…. I think it is very, very important that they experience a warmth and oneness within the Church to allow them to share their gifts with our Church…. I encourage this because I hope that within our Church, every gay person, every lesbian person, every bisexual or transgendered person will come out, because that is how our Church is going to truly change: when everyone who from this community of homosexual people is courageous enough, because it does take courage to come out….

“I would say this especially to bishops and priests within our Church. I cannot tell you the number of letters I have received in the last few years from priests who say they are gay, but are afraid to come out. What a loss this is to our Church! Because if they were willing to stand up on a Sunday morning in front of their community and to say who they really are, our Church could much more fully and quickly appreciate the gifts that homosexuals can bring to the whole community of our Church and to our society as well….

“As more and more people come out, more families are changed, more churches are changed, more parishes are changed, and our whole Church is changed. And so I appeal here publicly to all of us within the Church to create a community in which this can happen. But then, for those who are gay or lesbian or bisexual or transgendered, please come forward. Say who you are, be proud of who you are, and share all of your gifts with the Church” (Pastoral Care of Lesbian and Gay People, New Ways Ministry, Fourth National Symposium).

Now this is what I believe the Church position reflects and homosexual/transgender should know. They don’t have to like it, don’t have to accept it, unless they choose to participate as practicing Catholics in the OHCAC. They can change laws, petition, post…but the OHCAC for them unfortunately will not succumb to public opinion, their wishes…they should read Gaudium et spes…it is the Church in the Modern world…the world is modern…the Church is the Church…I love this Church.

 

[Viviphilia]

Based on these by you

viviphilia:

You seem a little proud of denying medical treatment to people who are suffering. I find that a rather strange attitude for a Christian.

What I was saying there, perhaps not clearly, is that being proud of denying medical treatment seems like a strange attitude for a Christian. I did not say what you are accusing me of, that it is un-Christian to deny SRS.

If anybody needs to apologize, I think it’s you because you insinuated that CC was not a doctor.

I have seen no evidence that the person in question is a doctor. Perhaps you believe every claim you read on the internet. I do not.

An example of the many falsities on the internet is the popular conclusion that the Vatican has a public statement rejecting the validity of gender transitions. There is no such public statement. I believe the reason why the Vatican has not made such a statement is because they are wise enough to know that the debate over trangender people is still ongoing. By releasing a public statment that negatively effected trans persons, it might negatively effect the loving relationships which many trans persons are involved in.

Can you imagine if your spouse realized he or she had a gender disorder and was forced to transition genders, and the Church annulled your marriage because of that medical condition? I believe that when the Vatican finally releases a public statement on transgender inviduals, they will follow Christ’s teachings of tolerance, mercy and acceptance.

Matthew 19:12 For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others—and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven.** The one who can accept this should accept it.”**

 

[CopticChristian]

I saw this on the news recently and out of curiosity, I want to know if transgendered people are allowed to get married / be in relationships, or does the CC still recognize it as a gay relationship?

Now what about the pure medical side of the coin. I was born a man. I know I am a woman. Surgery, hormones, now I can live my life. It isn’t that simple. Viv brought up the female to male. Imagine the chest scars from mastectomy, the tube made to look like but not function like a male organ. The female to male is not the what appears to be glamorous male to female transition. Men take showers, use bathrooms…publically. No surgical procedure can allow for a woman to pass effectively as a man under close scrutiny. This is a forever mental challenge. Now add this…

Hormone therapy comes with a price.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21266549

Eur J Endocrinol. 2011 Apr;164(4):635-42. Epub 2011 Jan 25.

A long-term follow-up study of mortality in transsexuals receiving treatment with cross-sex hormones

Asscheman H, Giltay EJ, Megens JA, de Ronde WP, van Trotsenburg MA, Gooren LJ.
Source

Endocrine Unit, Department of Internal Medicine Center of Expertise on Gender Dysphoria, VU University Medical Center, PO Box 7057, NL-1007 MB Amsterdam, The Netherlands.

RESULTS:
In the MtF group, total mortality was 51% higher than in the general population, mainly from increased mortality rates due to suicide, acquired immunodeficiency syndrome, cardiovascular disease, drug abuse, and unknown cause.
Psychiatry Res. 2010 Jun 30;178(1):171-5. Epub 2010 May 8.

and when you consider people with body dysmorphism…how is it possible to be sure that the transgender does not have elements of this problem…

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20452057

Updates on the prevalence of body dysmorphic disorder: a population-based survey.

Buhlmann U, Glaesmer H, Mewes R, Fama JM, Wilhelm S, Brähler E, Rief W.
Source

Humboldt University of Berlin, Department of Clinical Psychology, Rudower Chaussee 18, Berlin, Germany. ulrike.buhlmann@hu-berlin.de

Further, individuals with BDD, relative to individuals without BDD, reported significantly more often a history of cosmetic surgery (15.6% vs. 3.0%), higher rates of suicidal ideation (31.0% vs. 3.5%) and suicide attempts due to appearance concerns (22.2% vs. 2.1%).

Viv does not talk about nor may not know about repeat surgery for failed surgery that leave a person a surgical cripple. Not all surgical procedures suceed and rather than put forth the data…many of these postoperatives are unhappy, not satisfied and have nothing but problems. You may hear about a sucess but is it the norm…

I have the right to disagree with surgery for any reason. I am not obligated to perform surgery on request…this is called perogative. Sadly many surgeons will and do what someone asks…they are out there.

just visit this site and review some of the outcomes…they are not all perfect and none are as I see it transgendered…

plasticcelebritysurgery.com/

 

[CopticChristian]

What I was saying there, perhaps not clearly, is that being proud of denying medical treatment seems like a strange attitude for a Christian. I did not say what you are accusing me of, that it is un-Christian to deny SRS.

I have seen no evidence that the person in question is a doctor. Perhaps you believe every claim you read on the internet. I do not.

An example of the many falsities on the internet is the popular conclusion that the Vatican has a public statement rejecting the validity of gender transitions. There is no such public statement. I believe the reason why the Vatican has not made such a statement is because they are wise enough to know that the debate over trangender people is still ongoing. By releasing a public statment that negatively effected trans persons, it might negatively effect the loving relationships which many trans persons are involved in.

**Can you imagine if your spouse realized he or she had a gender disorder and was forced to transition genders, **and the Church annulled your marriage because of that medical condition? I believe that when the Vatican finally releases a public statement on transgender inviduals, they will follow Christ’s teachings of tolerance, mercy and acceptance.

Matthew 19:12 For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others—and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven.** The one who can accept this should accept it.”**

No,

You have pointed out that the genetic disorders are noted at birth. The notion that transgendered disorders occurs spontaneously in adulthood is bunk. No one is forced to transition.

 

[Viviphilia]

No,

You have pointed out that the genetic disorders are noted at birth. The notion that transgendered disorders occurs spontaneously in adulthood is bunk. No one is forced to transition.

Not all genetic disorders are noted at birth. Quite often they are not discovered until adulthood. Gender transition is the standard medical therapy for gender identity disorder. No one is “forced” to transition just like no cancer patients are “forced” to take chemo or get surgery. Please try to have some sympathy for people with these conditions.

Formal gender clinics for individuals seeking medical sex reassignment began operating in the 1960s and 1970s, leading to long-term follow-up studies that began appearing in the research literature in the 1980s and 1990s. These studies have examined transsexuals who received clinical approval to undergo reassignment and proceeded to do so.[11][12] The great majority of patients who met clinics’ screening criteria reported being satisfied in the long-term with the results.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity_disorder#Treatment