Are transgendered people allowed to get married or be in relationships?

[Crescentinus]

The Church has never disallowed interracial marriage. Does the Church even recognizes the concept of race?

Last time I checked, the Catholic Church does not recognize the concept of race.

 

[Crescentinus]

As we learn more about things, the CC attitude changes over time. We are learning more and more about gender identity. Transgendered people are just that, neither completely male nor completely female. It is a broad term that covers many terms and sexual identities. What does it mean when someone is born with some male sexual organs and some female sexual organs? Most females are born with two X chromosomes, and males with an X and a Y chromosome. What does it mean when God lets someone be born with a XXY sex chromosome? Or when they are born with YYX sex chromosomes? The CC did not until recently recogonize interracial marriage.

This is not a very strong argument.
Let me tell you why.
You equated race with sexual orientation. I’m sorry, but that is not a good argument. The Catholic Church does not recognize the concept of race. For the Catholic church to try and do so would defeat the word “catholic”.

 

[Cherry5]

I am aware of no cure. And there are thousands of diseases that have no cure today. In the absence of any licit solutions, my recommendation would be consistent across all maladies that do not yet have a cure.

Fortunately the is a cure - it is transition - under the right circumstances, it does make a lot of society uncomfortable, but over time they will be forced to deal with this situation. It is encouraging that the church is taking its time over making its decision.

For an example, it is nearly possible today for a person afflicted with an organ disease, to have created a human clone, carried to near full term by a surrugate, for the purpose of producing the needed organ. Of course, the ‘carrier’ of the organ would be destroyed in the process of harvesting their desired organ, but the person with the diseased organ is cured.
This is illicit. Do you still stand by your statement that God would accept ‘any choice’ that a diseased person made in order to alleviate their suffering? Or do you really only mean ‘some choices, if they are licit’?

This is an irrelevant comparison! my statement was in relation to Theresa’s situation, I have no interest in expanding this discussion to other situations. The only people hurt by her course of action are those that find it difficult to accept her because of their own limitations.

 

[CopticChristian]

As we learn more about things, the CC attitude changes over time. We are learning more and more about gender identity. Transgendered people are just that, neither completely male nor completely female. It is a broad term that covers many terms and sexual identities. What does it mean when someone is born with some male sexual organs and some female sexual organs? Most females are born with two X chromosomes, and males with an X and a Y chromosome. What does it mean when God lets someone be born with a XXY sex chromosome? Or when they are born with YYX sex chromosomes? The CC did not until recently recogonize interracial marriage.

Tony,

You are pro gay and that is you. These aberrations of genetics are not the norm. You continue to equate sex with race. Where is this gay country, with a gay language, gay culture that provided archeaologic evidence of its existence as we see with Race…

 

[Dan_Grelinger]

Fortunately the is a cure - it is transition - .

‘Transition’ is not a cure. If it was a cure, it would fix the problem. The body deveopled as it should have, according to the chromosomes that were determined at birth. To then mutililate the body in an attempt to change it into something it was not made to be is no cure.

This is an irrelevant comparison! my statement was in relation to Theresa’s situation, I have no interest in expanding this discussion to other situations.

You were the one who first expanded this discussion to other situations. You did it precisely when you introduced the claim that God would understand ANY thing that Theresa would do in response to her affliction. If you did not mean really ANY thing, then that is why I was obviously confused.

The only people hurt by her course of action are those that find it difficult to accept her because of their own limitations.

Not true. Terri was hurt. When one attempts to surgically try to change their body into something that it was not created to be, one is naturally hurt. Surgery also carries significant risks.

If your philosophy is that we all own our own bodies and can do whatever we want with them, then I can see how you reach your conclusion. However I believe, as the Catholic Church teaches, that our bodies belong to God and we are stewards of our bodies, and therefore are responsible for protecting them from harm. We were created by God, for Himself, not for ourselves. If Theresa was created as God wanted ‘him/her’ to be, then why change anything? If Theresa has an unfortunate affliction, then the affliction should be attacked as best as can be. But to attack the body with scalpels and sutures and whatever else is part of a sex ‘reassignment’ surgery, when the body does not have an affliction, is not showing respect for one’s body, that ultimately belongs to God.

 

[Cherry5]

‘Transition’ is not a cure. If it was a cure, it would fix the problem. The body deveopled as it should have, according to the chromosomes that were determined at birth. To then mutililate the body in an attempt to change it into something it was not made to be is no cure.

Obviously the WPATH and you have different definitions what a cure is.

'You were the one who first expanded this discussion to other situations. You did it precisely when you introduced the claim that God would understand ANY thing that Theresa would do in response to her affliction. If you did not mean really ANY thing, then that is why I was obviously confused.

I thought it was obvious that I was referring to her decision either to transition or not.

'Not true. Terri was hurt. When one attempts to surgically try to change their body into something that it was not created to be, one is naturally hurt. Surgery also carries significant risks.

If you did more research on the subject with an open mind perhaps you would come to a different conclusion.

'If your philosophy is that we all own our own bodies and can do whatever we want with them, then I can see how you reach your conclusion. However I believe, as the Catholic Church teaches, that our bodies belong to God and we are stewards of our bodies, and therefore are responsible for protecting them from harm. We were created by God, for Himself, not for ourselves. If Theresa was created as God wanted ‘him/her’ to be, then why change anything? If Theresa has an unfortunate affliction, then the affliction should be attacked as best as can be. **But to attack the body with scalpels and sutures and whatever else is part of a sex ‘reassignment’ surgery, when the body does not have an affliction, is not showing respect for one’s body, that ultimately belongs to God./**QUOTE]

It is sad that you describe a professional procedure in such a disrespectful manner both to the medical profession as well as Thersea. Based on your philosophy, any surgery is inappropriate! or maybe we should stop trimming our nails and hair! nothing wrong with them!

 

[Dan_Grelinger]

Obviously the WPATH and you have different definitions what a cure is.

World Professionals for Association Transgender Health? That is not a surprise. There is obviously a built in bias.

If you did more research on the subject with an open mind perhaps you would come to a different conclusion.!

I think you mean a closed mind. Ignoring the real physical risks of such invasive surgery would seem to be closing the mind to what is real rather than opening it.

It is sad that you describe a professional procedure in such a disrespectful manner both to the medical profession as well as Thersea. Based on your philosophy, any surgery is inappropriate! or maybe we should stop trimming our nails and hair! nothing wrong with them!

No, it is not sad, it is stating what is true. You only resort to calling it sad because you cannot show that it is not a true description of what REALLY physically happens during these procedures.

‘Professional procedure’? Even if an illicit procedure is performed by ‘professionals’ who make it their living to do them, they remain illicit. Many terrible, terrible things that have been done in the past were considered ‘professional procedures’ by those who performed them. That does not then make them OK.

You do not understand my philosophy at all then. Surgery to correct problems is licit. Surgery that seeks to further damage the individual is not. And bringing hair cutting and fingernail cutting into a discussion of surgery is a little desparate, isn’t it? I’ve never heard anyone (but perhaps you) consider them anywhere related to surgery.

 

[Corki]

Fortunately the is a cure - it is transition - under the right circumstances, it does make a lot of society uncomfortable, but over time they will be forced to deal with this situation. It is encouraging that the church is taking its time over making its decision.

“Transitioning” is not a cure. It simply substitutes one mismatch for another. Prior to surgical transitioning, the person’s genetic and physical gender were not in synch with his/her mental and psychological concept of his/her gender. After transitioning, the persons physical and psychological gender may match but be out of synch with the genetic component.

If you want us to accept the value of a person’s psychological gender identity even if it does not match the physical, you cannot simultaneosly dismiss the value of the person’s genetic identity. Especially since it is the only component that cannot be changed.

 

[CopticChristian]

The issue isn’t a matter of absolutes. There have been many threads in CAF discussing this same issue. It isn’t a matter of attributing gender issues to the environment in which a child is raised, but more a result of the in utero environment when the child is developing. The present understanding is that during gestation, the signals that should masculinize or feminize the area of the brain determing gender concept are somehow disrupted resulting in an individuals self realization that although male in body they are female in nature, or vice versa. What is termed “transsexualism, or transgender” can be regarded a an intersex condition. It has been termed by some medical professionals as “Harry Benjamin” syndrome. It is also important to note that gender is a separate concept related to, but not the same as, physical sex as determined by the outer anatomy. If it is an intersex condition, then why would corrective surgery to bring the two into congruence. Since the brain cannot be changed but the anatomy can, why is reassignment considered to be wrong. I realize this is not a complete solution, the person cannot procreate, but that is also a reality for many individuals who for other reasons cannot bear children. I realize there are a lot of perversions sometimes associated with this issue but they are not all the same issue. Usually the seedier elements are the ones given the most attention. For most of us faced with this issue, we would want to quietly assimilate into society as any other woman would. In my own case my identity as a born and raised Catholic is as much a part of me as my knowledge that I am a woman. I would want to be able to function in that role as a member of the Church, including being able to marry as a woman. I understand there are opinions very much in opposition to that, but I wanted to explain that “transgender” is a very broad term that I don’t belive should be so inclusive. There are more individuals desiring to lead a wholesome lifestyle base on who they are than those who relish a preverse lifestyle.

This issue of dissecting gender into something other than what it is creates a situation where it appears that gender is not a matter of XX or XY and the obvious physical attributes. This dissecting leads into a discussion of XY/gay or XY/? as if somehow the brain has no ability to change or choose. It is fixed as far as gender in your mind is concerned and then the question is what else is fixed or not fixed. As far as Harry Benjamin, this as I recall is the criteria used to attempt to get Insurance companies to pay for transgender surgery.

Gender as other than what it is, ie XX or XY and the physical attributes is a redfining in your mind not mine. If you are XX you are a woman. If you are XY you are a man. Changing your externals does not change that.

 

[tonyinatl66]

Tony,

You are pro gay and that is you. These aberrations of genetics are not the norm. You continue to equate sex with race. Where is this gay country, with a gay language, gay culture that provided archeaologic evidence of its existence as we see with Race…

I do not equate sex and race. The question was about The Church’s acceptace of transgendered individuals. It has been centuries since interracial marrages were banned. The Church evantually changed its teachings. At some point they may learn about what sexual identity is just like the church eventually learned the the Sun does not revolve around the earth. Transgender individual are not necessarily gay. Just because something does not fit the norm by our eyes, God made them who they are and are worthy of our compassion, love and understanding. I am anti-descrimination.

 

[tonyinatl66]

No matter the surgical costume, a man is forever a man physically and spiritually since he will always have male DNA and since he was assigned his maleness from eternity by God.

What about someone born with XXY or XYY chromsomes? Or someone born with some male anatomy and some female anatomy? Are you saying God made a mistake?

 

[CopticChristian]

Well I was questioning with or without surgery.

I’m assuming if it is possible, then it would only be after surgery because that would only be the real way to consume the marriage. Obviously a gay couple wouldn’t be able to successfully consume their marriage, but with a sex change surgery, I guess they would?

Not sure.

Pumpkin,

You have created something for thought.

You say obviously a gay couple cannot consume a marriage. This by definition would negate any gay marriage because legally a marriage must be consumated to be legal. This is a legal definition.

If two men, one having his male organs amputated and inverted are married and then have sex if married, then is it consumed.

In the first case two gay men you say cannot consumate a marriage, ie reproductive/digestive sex does not consumate a marriage.

In the second case the gay man and the gay/amputated and inverted cannot consumate the marriage either because the amputated has rendered his reproductive organ inoperative. It is not reproductive/reproductive sex because the mutilated reproductive organ is rendered inoperative and in essence is nothing more than a flesh receptacle.

I believe in either case the answer is no.

 

[Dan_Grelinger]

What about someone born with XXY or XYY chromsomes? Or someone born with some male anatomy and some female anatomy? Are you saying God made a mistake?

Seriously?

Are you suggesting they are as God wanted them? If so, your position is contradictory, because then any effort to change how they were born would be destroying God’s work, would it not?

Did God make a mistake? When someone gets cancer, is that because God made a mistake? When someone is born with a cleft lip, did God make a mistake?

Answer those questions, and in those answers you will find the one you seek.

1. God created the design for man. And man was good.
2. When evil was allowed by God to enter the world, as a result of mankind’s failure to love Him, bad things happened, and continue to happen. Not because God made them happen. Not because He made a mistake. But because He allowed them as just results of bad behavior. That is basic theology, and Catholic Truth.
3. When bad things happen to us, we are allowed to attempt to fix things, to make them right. We are not allowed to further destroy, to take an individual further away from God’s design for mankind. That is further disrespect for God’s creation.

In your examples, if someone is born with a physical malady, then an attempt to correct that physical malady may be made, and be pleasing to God. In the case of malformed genetilia, what is broke, may be fixed.

In the case of this thread, the discussion was centered on those who had normal, functioning body parts, and chose to destroy them. That can never be good.

 

[Viviphilia]

It makes no difference how a person feels, thinks, what they say or do, and what drugs they take or operations they have. You are what you are biologically born. Nothing changes your gender.

Incorrect. Please look at the effects of 5-alpha reductase deficiency. There are well documented cases of a person being born with a vagina and growing a penis during puberty.

 

[Viviphilia]

I don’t know the answer, but I wonder what is the fate of those people who, since their earliest years, identify mostly as the opposite sex. I think this often life-long identification is rooted in something much deeper than mere feelings. It strikes me as palpably true that a biological male can be mentally and spiritually feminine, notwithstanding his anatomy, and likewise for women. I hope someone would address this problem without attributing it to our fallen natures.

The disorder complete androgen insensitivity syndrome can give us some insights into what could be going on with transsexuals. Imagine for a moment a hypothetical partial androgen insensitivity syndrome. If a person’s brain lacked androgen receptors, but their lower parts had the receptors, then their brain might develop one way while their genitalia went the other way.

Unfortunately, the issue of transsexuality has a lot of political baggage that goes along with it and it makes it difficult to be reasonable about the medical condition.

 

[Viviphilia]

I can feel that I’m a car, and get wheels stitched onto my limbs, but that doesn’t make me a car!

No, you cannot get wheels stitched on to your limbs. Please do not be disrespectful towards the suffering of transsexuals.

 

[Viviphilia]

I suspect the unsettled understanding of transsexualism, and intersex conditions, are the reason the Church has not issued a public statement on these matters. The area is gray and will take time to sort things out.

That’s a good point. It would be nice if the Church hired a genuine transsexual to elucidate the issue, rather than continue to listen to Paul McHugh’s lies.

 

[Viviphilia]

I’ve also heard of some horrible cases when, during circumcision, the physician’s hand slips. I read of one case in which the boy was surgically treated to become a “girl.” I have no idea where I read this and so I can’t provide a reference, although I’m fairly certain this happened many years ago. The treatment today would probably be different and the child allowed to continue to live as a boy.

You’re probably talking about the case of David Reimer.

 

[Viviphilia]

And this is quite apart from known medical and genetic causes that result in varying degrees of intersex, including genetic males that are phenotypically female due to androgen insensitivity.

It is far too complicated a situation, and causes far too much suffering, for me to feel comfortable reducing it to quips and one-liners.

I’m assuming that the Church, prudently, refuses to publicly pronounce herself on the matter given the fact that it is an essentially incurable disorder and the best course of treatment is not clear. On the one hand the outcome of sex-reassignment is not universally good, on the other hand, forcing people to cover up and suppress their disorder can lead to severe depression and suicide.

OraLabora, thank you so much for asking others to be sympathetic towards the suffering of transgender people.

I just want to point out that for transsexual people, the best course of treatment is clear. As you have already pointed out, for many, the choice is between transition and suicide. Perhaps if society were more sympathetic as you are, other possibilities would be more realistic.

Matthew 5:30 *And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell. *

Matthew 19:12*"For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others—and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.”*

 

[Viviphilia]

Reassignment = changing the initial assignment. If the initial assignment was of one sex, then reassigning would be attempting to make the other sex. That is not licit.

The original poster attributed the initial problem to an event that happened with the brain not getting the proper development signals to match the initial genetic assignment to male or female. The body developed according to the basic genetic XX or XY pattern, but something interfered with the brain’s proper development, possibly very early. That is the problem that may be licitly fixed.

But, the body is not what is broken. It developed properly. Mutlilating IT in an attempt to match the broken part is not fixing anything. Breaking another part of a person is not the solution to the original problem.

In the case of an individual with CAIS, who has 46,XY chromosomes and is genetically a man, but born with a vagina and develops as a female, it is in fact the body (phenotype) which is broken.

Sex correction surgery is not “mutilation.” It is the correction of a developmental malfunction.