Are transgendered people allowed to get married or be in relationships?

[CopticChristian]

Incorrect. Please look at the effects of 5-alpha reductase deficiency. There are well documented cases of a person being born with a vagina and growing a penis during puberty.

Vivi,

These are genetic males with a cross to bear. It is difficult and appears to occur in the Dominican Republic 1:90. Cleft lip occurs as 1:1000. It is genetic and would be something that a genetic counselor would counsel those with the disorder as to having children. So what does this prove? Anomalies of nature exist.

 

[CopticChristian]

The disorder complete androgen insensitivity syndrome can give us some insights into what could be going on with transsexuals. Imagine for a moment a hypothetical partial androgen insensitivity syndrome. If a person’s brain lacked androgen receptors, but their lower parts had the receptors, then their brain might develop one way while their genitalia went the other way.

Unfortunately, the issue of transsexuality has a lot of political baggage that goes along with it and it makes it difficult to be reasonable about the medical condition.

Viv,

This is a rare disorder whereby males may appear to be female. There are 1 case per 20,400 liveborn males. It gives no insight into a man wanting to be a woman. These anomalies have male chromosome with female phenotypes. A cross to bear. This has nothing to do with transexuals.

 

[CopticChristian]

No, you cannot get wheels stitched on to your limbs. Please do not be disrespectful towards the suffering of transsexuals.

V,

In my opinion it is a suffering of their own choosing.

 

[CopticChristian]

OraLabora, thank you so much for asking others to be sympathetic towards the suffering of transgender people.

I just want to point out that for transsexual people, the best course of treatment is clear. As you have already pointed out, for many, the choice is between transition and suicide. Perhaps if society were more sympathetic as you are, other possibilities would be more realistic.

Matthew 5:30 *And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell. *

Matthew 19:12*"For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others—and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.”*

V,

Give me liberty or give me death. Well that is not the case here. If suicide is the only alternative then the question has to be asked what are the alternatives for the genetic anomalies that you describe as akin to transgender and transexual. Suicide is something that speaks of mental instability and a choice. That may well be the problem with transexuals and the transgendered in my opinion.

 

[CopticChristian]

In the case of an individual with CAIS, who has 46,XY chromosomes and is genetically a man, but born with a vagina and develops as a female, it is in fact the body (phenotype) which is broken.

Sex correction surgery is not “mutilation.” It is the correction of a developmental malfunction.

V,

Is this surgery a necessity, mandatory, absolutely have to be done. The 46XY are sterile so there is no reason to reconstruct anything for reproductive purposes. The CAIS are males and unless the Genitourinary tract needs reconstruction you are faced with the same issue. The only absolute necessity is surgery to provide adequate genitourinary function.

 

[Dan_Grelinger]

In the case of an individual with CAIS, who has 46,XY chromosomes and is genetically a man, but born with a vagina and develops as a female, it is in fact the body (phenotype) which is broken.

Sex correction surgery is not “mutilation.” It is the correction of a developmental malfunction.

We may be in agreement. Physical surgery to correct a physical malady is licit. Physical surgery on a body that does not suffer any malady mutilates normal, healthy, working body parts and that cannot be licit.

 

[CopticChristian]

We may be in agreement. Physical surgery to correct a physical malady is licit. Physical surgery on a body that does not suffer any malady mutilates normal, healthy, working body parts and that cannot be licit.

Hernia surgery, Urinary tract surgery would be necessary.

 

[CopticChristian]

I think a little sensitivity is in order. I don’t think by any stretch these people are “pretending” at all. For most it is a real cross to bear and there’s lots of suffering over it. Most are just trying to come to terms with confused gender identity and live according to their perceived gender.
Gender dysphoria is a very real disorder. One can debate whether sex-reassignment surgery is helpful for these cases; even in the medical community that’s not clear-cut, there remains some controversy on the issue. However, one must be careful to distinguish between sin and disorder. Disorders can lead one to sin, but the disorder itself is not “chosen”.

And this is quite apart from known medical and genetic causes that result in varying degrees of intersex, including genetic males that are phenotypically female due to androgen insensitivity.

It is far too complicated a situation, and causes far too much suffering, for me to feel comfortable reducing it to quips and one-liners.

I’m assuming that the Church, prudently, refuses to publicly pronounce herself on the matter given the fact that it is an essentially incurable disorder and the best course of treatment is not clear. On the one hand the outcome of sex-reassignment is not universally good, on the other hand, forcing people to cover up and suppress their disorder can lead to severe depression and suicide.

Given that the possible outcome can and has been fatal (for some), I would suggest that more charitable language than “pretend” would be in order.

I believe you hit the nail on the head. Perception is reality however perceptions can be change. Confusion is an issue and it is possible to clear the confusion.

While I may not find confidence in agreeing with you that gender dysphoria is a real disorder. It is descriptive of findings of people that complain about this. The DSM unfortunately is diagnosis by committe as evidenced by removing homosexuality as a disorder by gay psychiatrists.

 

[Viviphilia]

In my opinion it is a suffering of their own choosing.

That doesn’t make any sense. If a person is born with a disorder, it is not their choice to suffer from that disorder.

If suicide is the only alternative then the question has to be asked what are the alternatives for the genetic anomalies that you describe as akin to transgender and transexual. Suicide is something that speaks of mental instability and a choice. That may well be the problem with transexuals and the transgendered in my opinion.

Those people are people, not “genetic anomalies.”

I never said suicide was the only alternative. What I said was that, given the astronomically high rates of suicide among transgender people, that many feel as if their only options are between transition and suicide. I then went on to say that if society were more tolerant towards transsexuals, then perhaps other options would seem more realistic to those people who desire to transition or die.

Often times, transsexuals are “mentally unstable.” However, the fact that transitioning almost always reduces or eliminates gender dysphoria shows that the mental instability of gender dissonance is not something transsexuals are born with, but rather something we learn. That places the responsibility for transsexual suicides on what society is teaching transsexual people.

Is this surgery a necessity, mandatory, absolutely have to be done. The 46XY are sterile so there is no reason to reconstruct anything for reproductive purposes. The CAIS are males and unless the Genitourinary tract needs reconstruction you are faced with the same issue. The only absolute necessity is surgery to provide adequate genitourinary function.

The Catechism does not say that surgery needs to be done to reconstruct anything for any purpose. Catechism item 2297 says:

“Except when performed for strictly therapeutic medical reason, directly intended amputations, mutilations, and sterilizations performed on innocent persons are against the moral law.”

The requirement is when the surgery is for “strictly therapeutic medical reasons.” Although more studies need to be done, there are in fact many studies supporting the conclusion that transition and sex correction surgery are a successful therapy for trans women.

While it might be the case that transsexuals are not able to be married under Catholicism, the Church would be wise to permit gender transition, in my humble opinion.

 

[Viviphilia]

Vivi,

These are genetic males with a cross to bear. It is difficult and appears to occur in the Dominican Republic 1:90. Cleft lip occurs as 1:1000. It is genetic and would be something that a genetic counselor would counsel those with the disorder as to having children. So what does this prove? Anomalies of nature exist.

If you put my statement back into the context you took it out of, you would see I was replying to the claim, “Nothing changes your gender.” As a matter of fact, sometimes gender does change, as the 5-alpha reductase deficiency population shows.

According to much of the logic expressed in this thread, even though those individuals grew a penis, they would still be considered a female - even though they are in fact male. Doesn’t that show you that the topic of gender is more complex than many people realize?

Viv,

This is a rare disorder whereby males may appear to be female. There are 1 case per 20,400 liveborn males. It gives no insight into a man wanting to be a woman. These anomalies have male chromosome with female phenotypes. A cross to bear. This has nothing to do with transexuals.

Did you just refer to women with CAIS as “anomalies?” Such a dehumanization is very offensive. We are talking about real people here, not samples in a test tube.

Women with CAIS are chromosomally “men,” who “want to be women,” since they were born with a vagina, developed breasts in puberty, were socialized as women, have the attitudes and appearances of women, are naturally attracted to and frequently married to men, and have lived all their lives as women.

If you are unable to gain any insight about trans women from that group of “men who want to be women,” then I have little hope of being able to explain it to you.

 

[Viviphilia]

In my opinion it is a suffering of their own choosing.

That doesn’t make any sense. If a person is born with a disorder, it is not their choice to suffer from that disorder.

If suicide is the only alternative then the question has to be asked what are the alternatives for the genetic anomalies that you describe as akin to transgender and transexual. Suicide is something that speaks of mental instability and a choice. That may well be the problem with transexuals and the transgendered in my opinion.

Those people are people, not “genetic anomalies.”

I never said suicide was the only alternative. What I said was that, given the astronomically high rates of suicide among transgender people, that many feel as if their only options are between transition and suicide. I then went on to say that if society were more tolerant towards transsexuals, then perhaps other options would seem more realistic to those people who desire to transition or die.

Often times, transsexuals are “mentally unstable.” However, the fact that transitioning almost always reduces or eliminates gender dysphoria shows that the mental instability of gender dissonance is not something transsexuals are born with, but rather something we learn. That places the responsibility for transsexual suicides on what society is teaching transsexual people.

Is this surgery a necessity, mandatory, absolutely have to be done. The 46XY are sterile so there is no reason to reconstruct anything for reproductive purposes. The CAIS are males and unless the Genitourinary tract needs reconstruction you are faced with the same issue. The only absolute necessity is surgery to provide adequate genitourinary function.

The Catechism does not say that surgery needs to be done to reconstruct anything for any purpose. Catechism item 2297 says:

“Except when performed for strictly therapeutic medical reason, directly intended amputations, mutilations, and sterilizations performed on innocent persons are against the moral law.”

The requirement is when the surgery is for “strictly therapeutic medical reasons.” Although more studies need to be done, there are in fact many studies supporting the conclusion that transition and sex correction surgery are a successful therapy for trans women.

While it might be the case that transsexuals are not able to be married under Catholicism, the Church would be wise to permit gender transition, in my humble opinion.

 

[CopticChristian]

That doesn’t make any sense. If a person is born with a disorder, it is not their choice to suffer from that disorder.

Those people are people, not “genetic anomalies.”

I never said suicide was the only alternative. What I said was that, given the astronomically high rates of suicide among transgender people, that many feel as if their only options are between transition and suicide. I then went on to say that if society were more tolerant towards transsexuals, then perhaps other options would seem more realistic to those people who desire to transition or die.

Often times, transsexuals are “mentally unstable.” However, the fact that transitioning almost always reduces or eliminates gender dysphoria shows that the mental instability of gender dissonance is not something transsexuals are born with, but rather something we learn. That places the responsibility for transsexual suicides on what society is teaching transsexual people.

The Catechism does not say that surgery needs to be done to reconstruct anything for any purpose. Catechism item 2297 says:

“Except when performed for strictly therapeutic medical reason, directly intended amputations, mutilations, and sterilizations performed on innocent persons are against the moral law.”

The requirement is when the surgery is for “strictly therapeutic medical reasons.” Although more studies need to be done, there are in fact many studies supporting the conclusion that transition and sex correction surgery are a successful therapy for trans women.

While it might be the case that transsexuals are not able to be married under Catholicism, the Church would be wise to permit gender transition.

You need to review the DSM IV gender dsyphoria found here…

genderpsychology.org/transsexual/dsm_iv.html

As you read take note of the following…

continuous interest
aspired to or actually lived in the anatomically contrary gender role
strong and persistent gross-gender identification,

and on and on…it is purely subjective based on what someone tells another…in my opinion it is a choice…you do not have to agree.

Dr. William Glasser disavows the DSM and has proposed Choice Theory and Reality Therapy that I agree with. The DSM is bunk and is nothing more than a means to an end.

 

[Dan_Grelinger]

Do you know what therapuetic means? It is important to know the exact definition of the word in order to interpret what the catechism is saying.

 

[CopticChristian]

Do you know what therapuetic means? It is important to know the exact definition of the word in order to interpret what the catechism is saying.

Dan,

Having reviewed and denied Insurance guidelines for Transexuals…they think it is therapeutic and in reality it is not. This is part of the problem. If you cannot urinate then therapeutic surgery corrects that. If you have a hernia then therapeutic surgery corrects that. If you want to wear high heels, lipstick and call yourself helen…then surgery is not therapeutic.

 

[Viviphilia]

‘Transition’ is not a cure. If it was a cure, it would fix the problem. The body deveopled as it should have, according to the chromosomes that were determined at birth. To then mutililate the body in an attempt to change it into something it was not made to be is no cure.

Gender transition does fix the problem for almost all transsexuals.

Once again, look at the case of a woman with CAIS. Was she “made to be” a man since she has 46,XY chromosomes? Or was she “made to be” a woman since she has a vagina and the gender expression and gender identity of a woman?

Not true. Terri was hurt. When one attempts to surgically try to change their body into something that it was not created to be, one is naturally hurt. Surgery also carries significant risks.

Why do you believe your judgement of what we are “created to be” is more valid than anyone elses? Why would you ignore it when a trans woman believes she was “created to be” a woman and her male genitalia is a biological anomaly?

If your philosophy is that we all own our own bodies and can do whatever we want with them, then I can see how you reach your conclusion. However I believe, as the Catholic Church teaches, that our bodies belong to God and we are stewards of our bodies, and therefore are responsible for protecting them from harm. We were created by God, for Himself, not for ourselves. If Theresa was created as God wanted ‘him/her’ to be, then why change anything? If Theresa has an unfortunate affliction, then the affliction should be attacked as best as can be. But to attack the body with scalpels and sutures and whatever else is part of a sex ‘reassignment’ surgery, when the body does not have an affliction, is not showing respect for one’s body, that ultimately belongs to God.

You’re assuming that her “affliction” is in her mind when in reality it could be that the problem occurred in her development which resulted in the appearance of the wrong sexual features.

 

[CopticChristian]

That doesn’t make any sense. If a person is born with a disorder, it is not their choice to suffer from that disorder.

Those people are people, not “genetic anomalies.”

I never said suicide was the only alternative. What I said was that, given the astronomically high rates of suicide among transgender people, that many feel as if their only options are between transition and suicide. I then went on to say that if society were more tolerant towards transsexuals, then perhaps other options would seem more realistic to those people who desire to transition or die.

Often times, transsexuals are “mentally unstable.” However, the fact that transitioning almost always reduces or eliminates gender dysphoria shows that the **mental instability of gender dissonance is not something transsexuals are born with, but rather something we learn. That places the responsibility for transsexual suicides on what society is teaching transsexual people. **

The Catechism does not say that surgery needs to be done to reconstruct anything for any purpose. Catechism item 2297 says:

“Except when performed for strictly therapeutic medical reason, directly intended amputations, mutilations, and sterilizations performed on innocent persons are against the moral law.”

The requirement is when the surgery is for “strictly therapeutic medical reasons.” Although more studies need to be done, there are in fact many studies supporting the conclusion that transition and sex correction surgery are a successful therapy for trans women.

While it might be the case that transsexuals are not able to be married under Catholicism, the Church would be wise to permit gender transition, in my humble opinion.

Vi,

It appears that as you say “we” that you are suffering with gender dysphoria. Understand that no surgeon in his right mind performs surgery for suicidal ideation, mental instability or depression. It is unfortunate that those that do not understand the medical system believe that painting this picture would cause someone to say…oh yeah lets do surgery for this.

Suicidal ideation, depression and mental instability are not surgical diseases. Suicide is not performed by society. It is performed by the individual. You made me drink. You made me snort cocaine. You made me shoot heroin. It is all society’s fault. Really…

You point out accurately that this is learned behavior. Behavior is a function of thought and as we think, so we believe and so we act. We can change our thinking, and in the process change our actions. This is how NLP and Neurosemantics work. It is how Maxwell Maltz sold millions of books with his Psychocybernetics. We can change our thinking and in doing so change our behavior. If behavior were fixed and our thinking were fixed then Maslow, Milton Erickson, Richard Bandler, John Grinder and L. Michael Hall would have nothing to write about.

 

[Zosimus41]

I think you need to clarify your definition of “transgender”.

Do you mean someone who has had reassignment surgery? For example, Fredrika used to be Fred and now wants to marry Joe.

The answer to that question is NO.

The Church does not recognize a reassigned sex. It recognizes only the sex you were born as. And one cannot marry a person of the same sex.

What about two hermaphrodites? LOL

I guess thats a new thread starter

 

[CopticChristian]

What about two hermaphrodites? LOL

I don’t see the humor however there has to be distinguished pseudohermaphrodite and true hermaphrodite. This is rare and I muse at the transexual population looking at the rarities and anomalies to ascribe their thinking and behavior.

 

[Viviphilia]

World Professionals for Association Transgender Health? That is not a surprise. There is obviously a built in bias.

Indeed there is a bias - towards reluctant physicians who lack the courage to make the proper diagnosis of transsexuality. The Wpath SoC gives them the guidelines they need to delay or deny medical care to transsexuals who need it.

‘Professional procedure’? Even if an illicit procedure is performed by ‘professionals’ who make it their living to do them, they remain illicit. Many terrible, terrible things that have been done in the past were considered ‘professional procedures’ by those who performed them. That does not then make them OK.

Your caution is justified. Much evil has been done in the name of medical science. However, if you study the history of transsexuality, you will find that it is transsexuals themselves who have to beg doctors into doing these operations. It isn’t doctors pushing the transsexuals into them.

 

[CopticChristian]

Obviously the WPATH and you have different definitions what a cure is.

I thought it was obvious that I was referring to her decision either to transition or not.

If you did more research on the subject with an open mind perhaps you would come to a different conclusion.
Dan Grelinger;9392494:

'If your philosophy is that we all own our own bodies and can do whatever we want with them, then I can see how you reach your conclusion. However I believe, as the Catholic Church teaches, that our bodies belong to God and we are stewards of our bodies, and therefore are responsible for protecting them from harm. We were created by God, for Himself, not for ourselves. If Theresa was created as God wanted ‘him/her’ to be, then why change anything?

If Theresa has an unfortunate affliction, then the affliction should be attacked as best as can be. **But to attack the body with scalpels and sutures and whatever else is part of a sex ‘reassignment’ surgery, when the body does not have an affliction, is not showing respect for one’s body, that ultimately belongs to God./**QUOTE]

It is sad that you describe a professional procedure in such a disrespectful manner both to the medical profession as well as Thersea. Based on your philosophy, any surgery is inappropriate! or maybe we should stop trimming our nails and hair! nothing wrong with them!

Cancer, now Surgery for Cancer can be curative. Surgery to change sex…where is the cure? What is the disease. You are touting surgery as curative for something that is not a disease. The best you can hope for is a disorder and then that is only if you accept the DSM IV and that is not a universal proposition.

What other disorders might a sharp knife cure?