Are transgendered people allowed to get married or be in relationships?

[Viviphilia]

as if somehow the brain has no ability to change or choose.

The case of David Reimer proved that we are born with gender identity. No, we don’t get to change or choose how we identify. If it were possible, then you could prove your point by going to work tomorrow in a dress and acting like a woman. I doubt you have the courage.

Gender as other than what it is, ie XX or XY and the physical attributes is a redfining in your mind not mine. If you are XX you are a woman. If you are XY you are a man. Changing your externals does not change that.

Women with CAIS are born with a vagina and all the external features and gender identity of a woman. They also have the 46,XY chromosomes. Yet by your logic, they are men? And you don’t see any problem with that?

 

[Zosimus41]

I don’t see the humor however there has to be distinguished pseudohermaphrodite and true hermaphrodite. This is rare and I muse at the transexual population looking at the rarities and anomalies to ascribe their thinking and behavior.

Simply put transsexual behavior is an abamination its a perversion of Gods creation.

Hermaphrodites however is an act of nature One possible pathophysiologic explanation of this rare phenomenon is a parthenogenetic division of a haploid ovum into two haploid ova. Upon fertilization of the two ova by two sperm cells (one carrying an X and the other carrying a Y chromosome), the two fertilized ova are then fused together resulting in a person having dual genitalial, gonadal and genetic sex.

 

[CopticChristian]

Women with CAIS are born with a vagina and all the external features and gender identity of a woman. They also have the 46,XY chromosomes. Yet by your logic, they are men? And you don’t see any problem with that?

They are men genetically that look like women. It is unfortunate. Medicine is not logical to you. It is logical to me. It is rare and has nothing to do with transexuals.

In Medical School you have to study all the anomalies of genetics and accept them for what they are. You may not agree with the logic however if you are XX you are a woman and if you are XY you are a man. Now your appearance may be not consistent with your genetics and that is what it is. Is it logical. I am not responsible for creation or the anomalies. I just study them.

 

[Viviphilia]

In the second case the gay man and the gay/amputated and inverted cannot consumate the marriage either because the amputated has rendered his reproductive organ inoperative. It is not reproductive/reproductive sex because the mutilated reproductive organ is rendered inoperative and in essence is nothing more than a flesh receptacle.

As a matter of fact, neovaginas are operational in that they can be aroused and the trans woman can experience orgasm. Please research this topic before you make any more false conclusions.

 

[CopticChristian]

As a matter of fact, neovaginas are operational in that they can be aroused and the trans woman can experience orgasm. Please research this topic before you make any more false conclusions.

Vivi,

neovagina, not really a vagina, fully functional for what? They cannot perform the created function of a vagina as there is no uterus. So what are they functional for other than as you point out pleasure.

The amputated inverted penis was a sex organ before it was mutilated so is it any surprise that it functions as a pleasure site.

So you have a situation where pleasure could be obtained with a sex organ, mutilating surgery is done and then pleasure can be obtained with a sex organ. Makes sense to me??

 

[Viviphilia]

They are men genetically that look like women. It is unfortunate. Medicine is not logical to you. It is logical to me. It is rare and has nothing to do with transexuals.

In Medical School you have to study all the anomalies of genetics and accept them for what they are. You may not agree with the logic however if you are XX you are a woman and if you are XY you are a man. Now your appearance may be not consistent with your genetics and that is what it is. Is it logical. I am not responsible for creation or the anomalies. I just study them.

Well you seem to be doing a poor job of studying them with all the mistakes you’re making.

I’d say the major mistake you’re making is reducing real people to numbers in your books.

 

[CopticChristian]

Well you seem to be doing a poor job of studying them with all the mistakes you’re making.

I’d say the major mistake you’re making is reducing real people to numbers in your books.

Viv,

Help me understand where I made a mistake.

Real people in Medical books are unfortunately reduced to statistics, prevalence, incidence, recurrence, etc. This is how it is learned to deal with real people that are dysphoric, since they do not represent the genetic anomalies in need of genetic counseling.

 

[Viviphilia]

We may be in agreement. Physical surgery to correct a physical malady is licit. Physical surgery on a body that does not suffer any malady mutilates normal, healthy, working body parts and that cannot be licit.

A transgender person is suffering from the physical malady of having the wrong sexual characteristics, even if they are functioning properly.

 

[Viviphilia]

Confusion is an issue and it is possible to clear the confusion.

No it isn’t possible to “clear the confusion” of gender dissonance, other than through gender transition.

 

[Viviphilia]

You need to review the DSM IV gender dsyphoria found here…

genderpsychology.org/transsexual/dsm_iv.html

As you read take note of the following…

and on and on…it is purely subjective based on what someone tells another…in my opinion it is a choice…you do not have to agree.

Dr. William Glasser disavows the DSM and has proposed Choice Theory and Reality Therapy that I agree with. The DSM is bunk and is nothing more than a means to an end.

I’m well aware of the DSM diagnosis for gender identity disorder. I agree that there are major flaws with that diagnosis. The most important flaw is that it is commonly assumed that gender dysphoria is caused by something internal within the transsexual. In reality, gender dysphoria is caused by societal enforcement of the wrong gender role in people who do not identify in their assigned gender role. Gender dysphoria is caused when a woman is expected to live and behave as if she were a man, merely because she had a penis at birth. If it were not for those social expectations, gender dysphoria would not exist.

However, I believe there are good reasons for social gender roles, and I do not advocate their overthrow. All I advocate is for a relaxing of enforcement, especially with respect to transsexual individuals, who are often driven to suicide by being forced to live in a role which they find unnatural.

If gender is a choice, try living as a woman for a week. There’s no way you’ll be able to. You’ll make excuses, but you won’t do it because you can’t do it because gender identity is not a choice.

 

[Viviphilia]

Do you know what therapuetic means? It is important to know the exact definition of the word in order to interpret what the catechism is saying.

ther·a·peu·tic.
of or pertaining to the treating or curing of disease; curative.

Gender transition treats and frequently cures gender dysphoria. It’s not a perfect therapy, but it certainly is valid and backed by science.

 

[CopticChristian]

No it isn’t possible to “clear the confusion” of gender dissonance, other than through gender transition.

Viv,

No it isn’t possible to “clear the confusion” of gender dissonance, other than through gender transition, in your opinion.

Yes it is possible to “clear the confusion” of gender dissonance, without the need to go through gender transition, in my opinion, based on knowledge, training, experience and published data like this…

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6927003

J Am Psychoanal Assoc. 1982;30(2):419-34.
The resolution of a transsexual wish in a five-year-old boy.
Loeb L, Shane M.

It is to be hoped that our success with this patient will encourage others to treat and study children suffering from gender identity problems via the psychoanalytic approach.

There is published data to prove you wrong.

 

[Viviphilia]

Dan,

Having reviewed and denied Insurance guidelines for Transexuals…they think it is therapeutic and in reality it is not.

You seem a little proud of denying medical treatment to people who are suffering. I find that a rather strange attitude for a Christian.

Can you provide any evidence for your claim that transitioning, or even surgery are not therapeutic?

This is part of the problem. If you cannot urinate then therapeutic surgery corrects that. If you have a hernia then therapeutic surgery corrects that. If you want to wear high heels, lipstick and call yourself helen…then surgery is not therapeutic.

Um, actually, yeah, it is therapeutic, as evidenced by many studies. Your reductionist approach to medicine appears to ignore the Human mind entirely.

 

[CopticChristian]

ther·a·peu·tic.
of or pertaining to the treating or curing of disease; curative.

Gender transition treats and frequently cures gender dysphoria. It’s not a perfect therapy, but it certainly is valid and backed by science.

Gender dysphoria is not a disease. It is a disorder. Get with it Viv.

 

[Viviphilia]

Viv,

No it isn’t possible to “clear the confusion” of gender dissonance, other than through gender transition, in your opinion.

Yes it is possible to “clear the confusion” of gender dissonance, without the need to go through gender transition, in my opinion, based on knowledge, training, experience and published data like this…

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6927003

J Am Psychoanal Assoc. 1982;30(2):419-34.
The resolution of a transsexual wish in a five-year-old boy.
Loeb L, Shane M.

There is published data to prove you wrong.

Wow, one study, from 1982, based on a single patient, who was 5 years old.

Something like 80% of cases of childhood gender dysphoria go away after puberty. It is common knowledge that caution must be used in diagnosing gender dysphoria in children. That is why puberty blockers are recommended until age 16, rather than hormone therapy. The puberty blockers are reversible if the child changes their mind.

 

[CopticChristian]

You seem a little proud of denying medical treatment to people who are suffering. I find that a rather strange attitude for a Christian.

Can you provide any evidence for your claim that transitioning, or even surgery are not therapeutic?

Um, actually, yeah, it is therapeutic, as evidenced by many studies. Your reductionist approach to medicine appears to ignore the Human mind entirely.

Surgery of the body to treat the mind. Now you are on to something. I believe you could start a center for psychosurgery. I am sure that the Brain Surgeons are in since they study the mind and the actions of the brain. What you are looking at is motives to change the body. Motives emanate from the thoughts we have and the thoughts we have can change. I am for changing the thoughts.

 

[CopticChristian]

Wow, one study, from 1982, based on a single patient, who was 5 years old.

Something like 80% of cases of childhood gender dysphoria go away after puberty. It is common knowledge that caution must be used in diagnosing gender dysphoria in children. That is why puberty blockers are recommended until age 16, rather than hormone therapy. The puberty blockers are reversible if the child changes their mind.

Viv,

Your touting of the genetic anomalies that are rare is no different. When the shoe does not fit you discard it. Let’s look at the unrelated genetic anomalies that prove nothing and when you find one case that disproves your beliefs you scoff. This is one study and as you know that suggests there are more and more people are interested in the problem. So you want to believe that adults cannot change their minds and children can.

 

[Viviphilia]

Gender dysphoria is not a disease. It is a disorder. Get with it Viv.

Dialectical behavioral therapy is a well known and empirically sound psychological therapy for borderline personality disorder. Therapies apply to disorders as well as diseases.

 

[CopticChristian]

Dialectical behavioral therapy is a well known and empirically sound psychological therapy for borderline personality disorder. Therapies apply to disorders as well as diseases.

Viv,

Now you are on to something. Therapy and Therapuetic Surgery are different animals. I do agree that gender disorders should be treated with therapy.

 

[Viviphilia]

Vi,

It appears that as you say “we” that you are suffering with gender dysphoria. Understand that no surgeon in his right mind performs surgery for suicidal ideation, mental instability or depression. It is unfortunate that those that do not understand the medical system believe that painting this picture would cause someone to say…oh yeah lets do surgery for this.

I didn’t say that surgery should be done because the patient is suicidal. I’m saying that the surgery should be done because the patient desires it and it doesn’t go against any Catholic doctrines (other than super secret stuff that might not even exist).

You point out accurately that this is learned behavior. Behavior is a function of thought and as we think, so we believe and so we act. We can change our thinking, and in the process change our actions. This is how NLP and Neurosemantics work. It is how Maxwell Maltz sold millions of books with his Psychocybernetics. We can change our thinking and in doing so change our behavior. If behavior were fixed and our thinking were fixed then Maslow, Milton Erickson, Richard Bandler, John Grinder and L. Michael Hall would have nothing to write about.

I’m not saying transsexuals should be allowed surgery because of gender dysphoria. I’m saying we should be allowed surgery because we have a legitimate medical condition called transsexuality, or more appropriately in my opinion, intergender. This is not very different from surgeries which correct intersex conditions.

I am a big supporter of neuro linguistic programming. As a matter of fact, it did help me get over my gender dysphoria. However, you might be surprised to learn that I used NLP to unlearn the incorrect socialization I received as a child and to allow myself to realize my actual gender identity as a woman. :curtsey: