Are we already Damned?

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dizzy_dave

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God knows all things, right? Ok, so if God knows all thing he knows ahead of time if we are going to Heaven or Hell. If a soul will go to Hell and God knows this before the person even dies, why does God give that person Graces, or does he? Why would God make a person if he knew this would happen, it seems like a waste of everyones time, I just can’t seem to understand that. I thought it was a interesting thing to ponder. Why?
 
FYI, See “Merciful God” thread in this forum - same question, had 18 responses.
 
your bordering on pre-destination… just because God already knows the future and is privy to the choice we ultimately make, he doesn’t make the choice for us… what do you think…? :cool:
 
I’ve got several question here and maybe the answer is that we just don’t know - that it’s a mystery - but that’s not very satisfying when you’re struggling with your faith.

It doesn’t seem right that I had no decision as to whether I wanted to be created or not and that eventually I could be sent to hell. What’s up with that? I had no choice about being created, and the only choice I have to get me out of hell is to believe Jesus is our saviour. It’s hard to believe a loving God would set things up that way. What if I’m a person who just has a hard time believing that because it just doesn’t make sense to me. Is God going to send me to hell?

Not to mention the whole idea of suffering. I had no choice whether to be born and to suffer in this world. I was created, was born with original sin, do not have the ability to live a sinless life, and thereby we suffer in a broken world because of our sin which is impossible for us to overcome on our own. So Adam and Eve also did not have to ability to not sin. So when God created us, He knew all this would happen. What’s the point? Supposedly because of Adam and Eve’s sin is why we live in a suffering world. But as humans, it was impossible to be sinless?

If eventually those who are saved will be perfect beings in heaven, why didn’t He just create us there in the first place? What’s the point of earth?

Does anyone else out there struggle with feeling very blessed in their own lives but knowing there are millions of people in the world who are in utter despair? I am so thankful for all the ways in which I am blessed, but it really isn’t very comforting knowing there are so many others are suffering. If your own family member was suffering most people would suffer with them to some degree and it would cause unhappiness in their lives. Well aren’t we all one big family under one God? So how can we enjoy ourselves, particularly in the U.S. where we have so spoiled with all our material possessions, while so many others in the world don’t even have the basic necessities - food, clean water, place to sleep, someone who loves them…)?
 
From what I understand, poeple send themselves there by their own free will. God does not force us to love Him.
 
We send ourselves to Hell. God gave Adam and Eve perfect free will, and they chose to disobey him for the temptation to “become” like God himself. As a result of our Original Sin that we all inherited from them, we also separate ourselves from God in sin, and the only ways we can go to heaven are:
  • be perfect (which is not possible)
  • have that sin atoned for by someone willing to pay the price for you.
Praise be to God for His plan of salvation in Christ
 
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schnur07:
I’ve got several question here and maybe the answer is that we just don’t know - that it’s a mystery - but that’s not very satisfying when you’re struggling with your faith.
It doesn’t seem right that I had no decision as to whether I wanted to be created or not and that eventually I could be sent to hell. What’s up with that? I had no choice about being created, and the only choice I have to get me out of hell is to believe Jesus is our saviour. It’s hard to believe a loving God would set things up that way. What if I’m a person who just has a hard time believing that because it just doesn’t make sense to me. Is God going to send me to hell?
Not to mention the whole idea of suffering. I had no choice whether to be born and to suffer in this world. I was created, was born with original sin, do not have the ability to live a sinless life, and thereby we suffer in a broken world because of our sin which is impossible for us to overcome on our own. So Adam and Eve also did not have to ability to not sin. So when God created us, He knew all this would happen. What’s the point? Supposedly because of Adam and Eve’s sin is why we live in a suffering world. But as humans, it was impossible to be sinless?
God does not condemn us to Hell, we do that on our own. God created us so that we could be with him, but we continue to choose to do evil and to separate us from him. God is always trying to bring us closer to him but we are so weak that we fall. But I think that it is possible to overcome sin. Mary the mother of God did, she never sinned. Adam and Eve could have but they didn’t. They could have obeyed God but they chose to follow there human desire.
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schnur07:
If eventually those who are saved will be perfect beings in heaven, why didn’t He just create us there in the first place? What’s the point of earth?
I am not sure how to answer this question so I will leave it to someone else.
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schnur07:
Does anyone else out there struggle with feeling very blessed in their own lives but knowing there are millions of people in the world who are in utter despair? I am so thankful for all the ways in which I am blessed, but it really isn’t very comforting knowing there are so many others are suffering. If your own family member was suffering most people would suffer with them to some degree and it would cause unhappiness in their lives. Well aren’t we all one big family under one God? So how can we enjoy ourselves, particularly in the U.S. where we have so spoiled with all our material possessions, while so many others in the world don’t even have the basic necessities - food, clean water, place to sleep, someone who loves them…)?
I think that it is kind of like a curse to have too much money and too much at your hands because it makes it so much easier to go against God and his will. However, I accept them because I am weak. Some good can come from having alot though. It gave me the chance to learn about the Catholic church through the internet. I say you must do what you can to help others who are struggling and have a tough cross to bear. We are all one big family as you said so we should help each other along the way to Christ.
 
You have outlined a specific question from a broader problem: Why does an omnibenevolent God create or allow evil and then insists you must avoid it?

There are several answers to that problem, some examples:
Blame yourself (see above postings) - christians’ answer
The creator of this world is evil, but there’s a god is good waiting in heaven - Catharians’ answers
There are many gods, some good some evil - polytheists’ answer
There is no god, no hell, no heaven; good & evil are manmade - atheists’ answer
 
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Greg_McPherran:
From what I understand, poeple send themselves there by their own free will. God does not force us to love Him.
Great answer. This is true, we decide here on earth by our actions and choices. We have to be more thoughtful of others and to the lord more than others if we want to make it to heaven.
 
You also have to ask yourself ‘what is Hell’ there are lot of OT and NT references to Hell and often what is the “lake of fire” is really Gehenna which is a place just outside the city where they tossed bodies for burning … not pleasant, but a good warning and something THEY would understand while we might not realize –

Honestly I see Hell as more of a permanent separation from God, I’m not sure how horrid it will be because I think we get conflicting reports [meaning is it an unconscious state or a conscience one?] but I am sure it’s not where I want to end up.
 
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Naphali:
You also have to ask yourself ‘what is Hell’ there are lot of OT and NT references to Hell and often what is the “lake of fire” is really Gehenna which is a place just outside the city where they tossed bodies for burning … not pleasant, but a good warning and something THEY would understand while we might not realize –

Honestly I see Hell as more of a permanent separation from God, I’m not sure how horrid it will be because I think we get conflicting reports [meaning is it an unconscious state or a conscience one?] but I am sure it’s not where I want to end up.
One of the reasons why Hell is so bad is because you are permanently separated from God. No one knows how bad it is but scripture says
It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea, rather than that he should cause one of these little ones to stumble. Luke 17;2
Whoever will cause one of these little ones who believe in me to stumble, it would be better for him if he was thrown into the sea with a millstone hung around his neck. Mark 9;42
so it must be pretty bad.

It must be a conscious state. If you were unconscious then it would not be a bad thing, it would be nothing.
 
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schnur07:
If eventually those who are saved will be perfect beings in heaven, why didn’t He just create us there in the first place? What’s the point of earth?
God did indeed create humanity as rational beings with intelligence and will, above all in the right disposition of their intellect and will, so that by their undepraved [ie unfallen] intellect they were able to know God [viz. Adam and Eve walked with God in the Garden “in the cool of the evening,” a beautiful word picture of perfect fellowship with God] and by their uncorrupted will*** to*** desire only what God desires. Their appetites [appetitus sensitivus] were in complete accord with the divine norm of holiness so that in the original state of integrity, humanity was entirely upright and incorrupt in all its endowments, powers and attributes.

All of that was destroyed by the rebellion of humanity against God, by Sin. The others have said it clearly and distinctly: We are in the mess we are in because we put ourselves there. We sell ourselves into slavery to sin. We live in a fallen and sinful world, a world in constant rebellion against God. It is a mess of our own making.

The** Good News=Gospel **is that God condescends to us in our wretched fallen state, God comes into this mess in order to reconcile us to Himself, to restore us to the fellowship with Him that was destroyed in the Fall. The Cross shows us the gravity of our fallen state, the horror of our sin; it also shows us how much God loves us. God loves us enough to take our brokenness, our fallenness upon Himself in Christ and to put it to death in His own suffering and death, in which we share by our holy Baptism.

Through Baptism we are raised to newness of life through the Holy Spirit by the power of Christ’s glorious Resurrection . Jesus said “The Kingdom of God is among you…” Heaven is already here. We certainly continue to live in a fallen sinful world, but as God’s dear children, headed for home. By the power of the Holy Spirit we can share in the joys of heaven here on this earth. Christians are not perfect, only forgiven.

Didn’t mean to preach—occupational hazard 😉
 
AnAtheist, you apparently feel that God created evil. God did not. God created good. Evil is the absence or perversion of good. Evil is not something which exists “independently”. Good is. God is not a dualist. He didn’t make separate “good” and “evil”. By giving men free will, thus enabling them not to be “robots” who could do only ONE thing, without any choice in the matter, God acknowledged that “good” could thus, by men, be perverted or denied (evil), but that is not GOD’S creation of an independent “evil” which is to be considered an equal and opposite of “good”. That’s where you make your fundamental (excuse the pun) mistake, in assigning to God the fallacy of “dualism”. IMO.
 
You ask some pretty heavy duty questions. Keep searching. Here are some thoughts on heaven and hell.

Hell is often represented (out side of scripture) as a place where you go if you break the commandments. I think this is a distortion if not outright misrepresentation of the truth. When the Ten Commandments were given, they were given with the promise of life and prosperity if they were followed and death and destruction if they were not. Sounds bad but still not as bad as eternal damnation.

Jesus repeatedly states how condemnation and forgiveness come about “The measure with which you measure will be used to measure you” “Forgive and you will be forgiven.” “Do not judge and you will not be judged”

In other words, we only get to hell for doing those things for which we send others to hell. If we don’t condemn others we will not be condemned.

“Even for something like murder?” you might say.
Yes. Murder is not something to avoid - not because we will go to hell if we murder - but because we will carry around an enormous burden for the rest of our life if we commit murder. Not to mention we will likely end up in jail or possibly executed ourselves. either by the law or by friends or family of the person we killed.

We can live our lives free of the fear of hell if we practice forgiveness. That it not always easy to practice. Sometimes rage and condemnation can surface simply by somebody taking our parking place.

A thoughtful and somewhat humorous response to the question “why are we here” can be found in “Illusions, the Adventures of a Reluctant Messiah” by Richard Back. Probably to all that theologically correct but I enjoyed it.

Peace
-Jim
 
More on the questions:

It doesn’t seem “right” that you don’t have a voice in whether you are created? Well, the way I see it, having a “voice” would make you equal to God, wouldn’t it? If you are in authority over someone else, and you want him/ her to do something, you don’t usually give them the choice “NOT” to do it, correct? YOU are the one in charge, because you know what needs to be done. THEY are the ones following, who DO what needs to be done–not because YOU can’t do it yourself, but because you choose the course of action in ORDER that it be followed by others. God could certainly do anything MUCH better than any human being could.

It has been said by the church fathers (I forget which one) that existence is ALWAYS better than non-existence. Our life from God is a gift to us. Some of us will “appear” to have BETTER gifts, but that is a relative term. Just from the opportunity to live we have, each of us, the precious opportunity to know, love, and serve God. And some, who may look to have “better” lives in terms of such relative things as health, wealth, status, etc. may find themselves coming in “last” to others who had “worse” lives in those terms but whose lives in terms of the “real deal”–knowing, loving and serving God–were . Look at the lives of some of the saints–martyred, persecuted, poor health, poverty. . .hardly the stuff of “happiness” in EARTHLY terms? St. Francis was a rich nobleman who could have been someone “powerful” in worldly terms. He wound up a beggar, despised by many, rejected by most, considered crazy by worldly standards. While Francis suffered in physical ways (and emotional too, tell me he wasn’t sad to see his father reject him), that suffering was just as worthwhile–MORE worthwhile–than his happiness. We can’t have the mountains without the valleys, you know.

God has a plan for us. Our part isn’t to start argument from day 1 with, “Well, I didn’t ASK to be born”, effectively putting the kibosh on our communication with God and stalling His plan right from the start by not even allowing Him to be “in charge” of us. WE want to be in charge! WE want equality with God (even though Jesus Himself, who IS equal, didn’t assume it, but became man).

There are LOTS of things we struggle with. I personally never went into a higher math than calculus. Now, if I wanted to become a Math professor, I could whine that it wasn’t FAIR that the path I wanted involved stuff that I felt I just COULDN’T do. Maybe I can, maybe I can’t. I’ll never know until I try. But math won’t condemn me to hell (trying to learn it may FEEL like hell, but that’s another story). But is the struggle with “belief in God” something that will condemn us? NO–the STRUGGLE will not. You will either struggle all your life, or at some point you will stop the struggle to say either, “I Do” or “I Don’t” believe. ONLY if you have made the CONSCIOUS choice to NOT believe might you be condemned. Because by making that choice YOU close off any possibility of BELIEF.
 
Look at it this way. By your creation you are given an opportunity that an uncreated would not get. The gift of life. Now you have free will to choose God and live by his revealed laws or reject him and suffer eternal separation. Like human relationships you can turn toward Him or turn your back on Him. When discord exists between you and a loved one how do you feel? Do you wish to repair this discord? It is the same with God. When you sin you turn away from Him and your relationship suffers. If you die with your back to Him then you will suffer what we term hell. You chose, he did not force (send) you.

As to evil: As a consequence of free will God permits evil.
 
Hell wasn’t originally for humans but for the fallen angels.(revelation) Men decided for themselves to accept God and follow his teachings or reject him and all that is his and seperate themselves form God.

What are we humans doing here on earth? Well after the fall of man we were tainted with sin and nothing with sin can enter heaven. So what we are doing is making our decision do we want to serve God or ourselves? Depending on what WE choose we can choose to live holy lives and pray that God deems us worthy of sanctifying grace to heaven (maybe a pit stop in purgatory to clean ourselves of remaining venial sin) Or Hell the eternal seperation from God.

Why is hell so horrible? Well you get to see God at your final judgement and he will show you your life. Once you begin the punishement you inflicted upon yourself well you’ll be tormented with having seen God in his perfection and know in your heart you have rejected him, to me that is a torture worse than death!😦
 
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schnur07:
It doesn’t seem right that I had no decision as to whether I wanted to be created or not and that eventually I could be sent to hell. What’s up with that? I had no choice about being created, and the only choice I have to get me out of hell is to believe Jesus is our saviour. It’s hard to believe a loving God would set things up that way. What if I’m a person who just has a hard time believing that because it just doesn’t make sense to me. Is God going to send me to hell?
I don’t believe that I have any better answers than any you have already heard. But I do think that you’ve shown some wisdom in asking the questions about why we were created without our permission.

I think that question is far more profound than the questions about evil, hell, and suffering. The very question pre-supposes the fact that God is God and we are mere creatures.

The version of the question which has meaning for me is, ‘Why do I rebel against the fact that God is the creator and I am not?’

If I knew the answer to my question, I think all the other questions could be answered as corollaries.
 
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headman13:
We are in the mess we are in because we put ourselves there. We sell ourselves into slavery to sin. We live in a fallen and sinful world, a world in constant rebellion against God. It is a mess of our own making.
The problem I have with this is that I didn’t put myself here. God created me and put me here. Jesus came down to save us because we can’t save ourselves. So God created me without the ability to be perfect - therefore I’m a sinner for my life on earth. I had no choice whether to be a sinner or not because it’s impossible for me not to sin.

So how is it that in heaven I’ll be perfect? Is it that I don’t have free will anymore? No, because then I’d be a robot. Is it because I finally see God face to face and am so absorbed with his goodness that it’s virtually impossible to sin anymore? If this is the case, then why not just create us in heaven? What’s the point of earth? If God created us initially in heaven then there would be no suffering.

I can’t imagine if I were God that I would create humans knowing they are sinners and can not free themselves from sin and then telling them they’re going to hell unless they believe in my beloved Son. Faith in something isn’t just something you do like walking across the street. It’s not just something you can decide today “OK I’m going to have faith today”.

The whole irony in it for me is that somehow I still find myself believing even though I can’t make sense of it all. The only thing that makes sense to me is that God is God and I am man and will never be able to understand why God does what He does. But then I wonder why can’t God just come down and answer a few of these questions. :hmmm:

What makes the most sense to me is the greatest two commandments. By following these, we can work toward making the world we live in a little more like heaven.🙂
 
Have you examined the book of Job recently? Job 38:1-35

Then the Lord answered Job out of a whirlwind, and said: 2 Who is this that wrappeth up sentences in unskillful words? 3 Gird up thy loins like a man: I will ask thee, and answer thou me. 4 Where wast thou when I laid up the foundations of the earth? tell me if thou hast understanding. 5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

1 “The Lord”… That is, an angel speaking in the name of the Lord.

6 Upon what are its bases grounded? or who laid the corner stone thereof, 7 When the morning stars praised me together, and all the sons of God made a joyful melody? 8 Who shut up the sea with doors, when it broke forth as issuing out of the womb: 9 When I made a cloud the garment thereof, and wrapped it in a mist as in swaddling bands? 10 I set my bounds around it, and made it bars and doors:

11 And I said: Hitherto thou shalt come, and shalt go no further, and here thou shalt break thy swelling waves. 12 Didst thou since thy birth command the morning, and shew the dawning of the day its place? 13 And didst thou hold the extremities of the earth shaking them, and hast thou shaken the ungodly out of it? 14 The seal shall be restored as clay, and shall stand as a garment: 15 From the wicked their light shall be taken away, and the high arm shall be broken.

16 Hast thou entered into the depths of the sea, and walked in the lowest parts of the deep? 17 Have the gates of death been opened to thee, and hast thou seen the darksome doors? 18 Hast thou considered the breadth of the earth? tell me, if thou knowest all things? 19 Where is the way where light dwelleth, and where is the place of darkness: 20 That thou mayst bring every thing to its own bounds, and understand the paths of the house thereof.

21 Didst thou know then that thou shouldst be born? and didst thou know the number of thy days? 22 Hast thou entered into the storehouses of the snow, or has thou beheld the treasures of the hail: 23 Which I have prepared for the time of the enemy, against the day of battle and war? 24 By what way is the light spread, and heat divided upon the earth? 25 Who gave a course to violent showers, or a way for noisy thunder:

26 That it should rain on the earth without man in the wilderness, where no mortal dwelleth: 27 That it should fill the desert and desolate land, and should bring forth green grass? 28 Who is the father of rain? or who begot the drops of dew? 29 Out of whose womb came the ice; and the frost from heaven who hath gendered it? 30 The waters are hardened like a stone, and the surface of the deep is congealed.

31 Shalt thou be able to join together the shining stars the Pleiades, or canst thou stop the turning about of Arcturus? 32 Canst thou bring forth the day star in its time, and make the evening star to rise upon the children of the earth? 33 Dost thou know the order of heaven, and canst thou set down the reason thereof on the earth? 34 Canst thou lift up thy voice to the clouds, that an abundance of waters may cover thee? 35 Canst thou send lightnings, and will they go, and will they return and say to thee: Here we are?

It seems as if you have no trouble acknowledging God as your creator ("I didn’t ask to be born, HE created me), but a great deal of trouble accepting that God is your superior. That HE, in creating you, had reasons you can’t understand, in your fixing on relativisms like “but I’m a sinner, and He made me a sinner”. A-hem, He made you. Mankind made themselves sinners. Haven’t you been baptized? Don’t you take advantage of confession? Don’t you read the Bible and the catechism, attend Mass, and pray? We are ALL sinners. He’s not asking any more of YOU than He does of anyone else–including HIMSELF (thank you, Jesus)–but He won’t settle for anything LESS.
 
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