Are we already Damned?

[uncleauberon]

ricatholic:

Why would those that feel so bad about their sins be sent to hell? Wouldn’t God recognize the shame as repentance and humbleness?

It is actually the opposite situation of example 1.

Peace

Shame can lead to withdrawl. Have you ever talked with someone that thought that God could never forgive them… so they don’t even bother asking ?

That’s Right – they are opposites !

These are examples of the
Two Sins Against Hope –

**Presumption **
and
**Despair **

I have often felt that these are truely the unforgivable sins that get people into Hell.

CCC
usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect2chpt1.htm
Hope
Sections 2090 - 2092

 

[larryo]

buffalo:

Look at it this way. By your creation you are given an opportunity that an uncreated would not get. The gift of life. Now you have free will to choose God and live by his revealed laws or reject him and suffer eternal separation. Like human relationships you can turn toward Him or turn your back on Him. When discord exists between you and a loved one how do you feel? Do you wish to repair this discord? It is the same with God. When you sin you turn away from Him and your relationship suffers. If you die with your back to Him then you will suffer what we term hell. You chose, he did not force (send) you.

As to evil: As a consequence of free will God permits evil.

I couldn’t have replied better myself. Excellent, concise response.

 

[Melchior]

Justice!

Finally. Thank you.

I would also like to point out that others have said that the worst part of Hell is the absence of God’s presence. I would say that is not at all Biblical. The worst part of Hell is God’s presence - His presence as Judge and not Father to those who hate him. And that is who is going to Hell those who hate God and are his enemies.

God is omnipresent. Hell is not His absense, it is his wrathful/judgment presence.

Hell is the only fitting “payment” for those who despise the great gift of God in Jesus Christ. Those who go there are the ones who have despised their own life by despising their creator. Everyone will be in His presence for eternity. But do you want to be in the presence of a loving Father or a perfectly objective and perfect judge?

Mel

 

[SavedByHim]

BobCatholic:

There are only two people who go to hell.

1. Those who are proud of their sins. As they’re heading down the escalator, they’re giving God the middle finger laughing.
2. Those who are so ashamed that they didn’t repent of their sins, when they see God’s all perfect righteousness and say “I can’t go here, I’m too ashamed. I’d rather go to hell than deal with my extreme shame.”

Well, I must admit I am glad to see that. I was reading this thread and was starting to worry about some of the posts saying that most of us were going to end up in hell.

I guess I had always “assumed” that if I asked Jesus to come into my life as my savior, then I would be saved. (But, as I’m finding out, that’s a very fundamentalist view, yes?) And in order to “keep” that salvation, I merely needed to ask for his forgiveness for the sins I would inevitably commit, love thy neighbor as myself and generally try to “be a good person.”

So, I guess my questions is, is ANYONE assured of being saved? I mean, since we are all sinners, how can we guarantee we will be saved? Or can’t we???

 

[MattG]

SavedByHim:

Well, I must admit I am glad to see that. I was reading this thread and was starting to worry about some of the posts saying that most of us were going to end up in hell.

So, I guess my questions is, is ANYONE assured of being saved? I mean, since we are all sinners, how can we guarantee we will be saved? Or can’t we???

SavedByHim, you have an appropriate Username for this thread and only one other would be better IMO … RedeemedByHim.

When the Christian realizes the distinction between Salvation and Redemption, s/he can begin to “work out her/his salvation in fear and trembling” as St Paul teaches at PHIL 2:12.

At any moment in time, it is my supposition, we are able to accept or reject the free, unearned gift won for us by Jesus on the cross. That it is much harder to reject than accept is my hope.

 

[schnur07]

Well I guess I started this whole thing and sure appreciate all the comments. And even though I still struggle with many of the questions I just try to give them back to God and ask Him to help me deal with those questions in whatever way is best.

But, if Adam and Eve were supposedly originally in Heaven and messed up and were thrown out, if we eventually make it to heaven, what’s the guarantee that we will be able to stay there? I’m assuming we would still have free will and have the ability to turn from God.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

No, once we get into heaven we aren’t going to suddenly have a change of heart that could involve our being thrown out again.

You won’t be perpetually walking on eggshells wondering if you’re going to offend God and be thrown out again.

Remember, Adam and Eve weren’t thrown out of HEAVEN for good–they were “removed” from Paradise to live on earth, die, and then be subject to God’s judgment–his once and for all judgment. When they died on this earth, they were subject to His judgment–and we believe that in His infinite love and mercy, now that Jesus, the second Adam, has redeemed us, that most certainly the first man and woman have been redeemed as well, by His mercy and THEIR sorrow and penance.

If we choose to obey God and demonstrate that by our lives on earth which prepare us for heaven, are purified (if necessary) in purgatory, we will at the end ot “time” (which will be, not the beginning of the end, but the end of the beginning, to world WITHOUT end), our “free will” shall have made the final, irrevocable choice to be with God our loving Father as He wants us to be–loving and serving Him, happy with Him in this world and the next. We won’t find ourselves after a few million years going, “Hmmm, I think I want to sin”. Our free will will simply be SO FREE in HIM that we will be like God in our holiness and purity and goodness, through Him, with Him and in Him, but NEVER equal to Him or above Him; therefore, we will never “pit our will” AGAINST Him in any way. . .IMO.

 

[jeeenah]

The answer is: Nobody can answer your question, because nobody knows the answer. All of these answers don’t really answer your question; I have these same questions, and i found a site today that tried to address these very same questions, but instead they did lots of babling in a very scholarly hard-to-read format. Maybe you can understand the argumentas against your questions better than I could:

christian-thinktank.com/gutripper.html

I struggle with these EXACT sames questions daily yet I am a practicing Catholic. I struggle wondering why my father was diagnosed with inoperable lung cancer last week, while he is caring for my beautiful sister who suddenly became psychotic a year ago and lost her marriage and her children. yea, they say things like “We don’t understand God’s ways.” But what else are the going to say!

Good Luck.

 

[jeeenah]

PS…

Hmmm…(scratching my head)…

“You don’t have to love me, but if you don’t, you will suffer for eternity.”

Gee…I don’tunderstand how that isn’t being forced.
God Doesn’t force us to love Him as stated many times througout this thread, but if we don’t love Him, we go to Hell.

I have an appt. on September 1st to speak to my Parish Priest to address some of these questions that I am struggling with.

 

[SavedByHim]

“You don’t have to love me, but if you don’t, you will suffer for eternity.”

Gee…I don’tunderstand how that isn’t being forced.
God Doesn’t force us to love Him as stated many times througout this thread, but if we don’t love Him, we go to Hell

He never said it was a GOOD choice… but, it’s still a choice my friend.

It’s kind of like the parent who says “If you stay out past your curfew, you will be grounded.” They are telling the child that there will be consequences if you disobey me. But only the child can “choose” to be home on time.

Good for you for meeting with your priest too. Hopefully you will find some answers. God Bless!

 

[buffalo]

jeeenah:

I struggle with these EXACT sames questions daily yet I am a practicing Catholic. I struggle wondering why my father was diagnosed with inoperable lung cancer last week, while he is caring for my beautiful sister who suddenly became psychotic a year ago and lost her marriage and her children. yea, they say things like “We don’t understand God’s ways.” But what else are the going to say!

Good Luck.

Simply put - God is all powerful - we are not. If He says or does something, since we are finite we have a finite (limited) understanding of it. Since he is omniscient only He knows the reason why. Since we cannot begin to grasp His intent we have faith. So our life on earth is the test of free will. We can turn toward Him or turn away. It is our choice. If we turn away from Him we suffer what is known as hell. He never turns us away.

 

[kevinfraser]

cute2904:

God create hell for people who have question like you jk!

Schnur, I apologize to you for this because cute has refused twice, defending her “joke” privately, insisting it is a virtue, and suggesting I am wrong for calling her on it.

Cute’s joke was designed to mock schnur personally by suggesting that loss of salvation is God’s reward for having the courage to obey Christ’s command to love God with our “whole mind.” Cute gave in to a temptation she couldn’t resist. Everything else about cute’s post was wrong, too.

Cute’s advice following the mockery is bad advice, because it opposes Jesus in the Gospel:

Jesus greatest commandment includes: “to love the Lord your God with your … whole mind.” Schnur07’s question directly obeys Christ. Cute’s joke directly opposes Christ, and she categorically refuses to apologize for giving this scandal.

My advice to you schnur07 is to trust in the Lord, be not afraid, and continue asking questions and learning. “Seek and you shall find.”

Your question is a Holy response to Christ’s command. He will never leave you. Responses like “cute” made try to influence you to follow the wide and easy path–the one Jesus said not to take because it cannot lead to Him. Mockery about salvation comes from Satan.

And pray for people who knowingly or unknowingly mislead those who seek. They don’t mean to disobey Jesus, even if they advise others to.

I think cute can learn a lot from you schnur about seeking the Lord as a little child.

Note, cute: I’m not presenting my opinion in place of Truth, but presenting Jesus’ teaching in place of my opinion.

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

schnur07:

It doesn’t seem right that I had no decision as to whether I wanted to be created or not and that eventually I could be sent to hell. What’s up with that? I had no choice about being created, and the only choice I have to get me out of hell is to believe Jesus is our saviour. It’s hard to believe a loving God would set things up that way.

***If you have kids, reflect on why you had them even though you knew they would sometimes disobey you and need to be punished. ***

God created you because he loves you and this world needs something that only you can provide. He’s entrusted you with a unique mission, different from everyone else on the face of the earth.

What if I’m a person who just has a hard time believing that because it just doesn’t make sense to me. Is God going to send me to hell?

Someone once said “A thousand difficulties do not make one doubt”. Having a hard time with something is not rejection of it. If you have a hard time believing pray what the apostles said to Jesus; “I believe, help my unbelief”.

Does anyone else out there struggle with feeling very blessed in their own lives but knowing there are millions of people in the world who are in utter despair?

Yes, and when I struggled with it after my friend lost her child the Lord put Luke 12:48 on my heart. Look it up and pray on it. I pray it will help you as it helped me.

 

[chrisg93]

The answer is ELECTION—

• Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
  Rom 9:21*

St Paul was asked the same question and he said the above. God has the right to save whomever he choses and not save others according to his own mysterious plan. This is a mystery of God that St Paul does not explain any further. Maybe the Church fathers did, I don’t know. This is referred to in the Mass when it says “a holy nation, a people set apart”.

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

chrisg93:

The answer is ELECTION—

Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:21

St Paul was asked the same question and he said the above. God has the right to save whomever he choses and not save others according to his own mysterious plan. This is a mystery of God that St Paul does not explain any further. Maybe the Church fathers did, I don’t know. This is referred to in the Mass when it says “a holy nation, a people set apart”.

God desires that ALL men be saved. Ultimately, when we stand before the throne in judgement, God will say to each of us, in essence, “YOUR will be done”.

 

[chrisg93]

Catholic4aReasn,
You are correct that the passage does say that God desires all men to be saved. On the other hand Paul says that God has the right to save some men. That is a mysteryof God that cannot be explained. I have posted this contradiction before and never gotten a good answer. It is a mystery how both can be true, but they are.

 

[jimmy]

chrisg93:

Catholic4aReasn,
You are correct that the passage does say that God desires all men to be saved. On the other hand Paul says that God has the right to save some men. That is a mysteryof God that cannot be explained. I have posted this contradiction before and never gotten a good answer. It is a mystery how both can be true, but they are.

Having the right and desiring are two different things. Of course God has the right to save some and damn others, he can do anything he wants. But he still desires to save everyone.

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

chrisg93:

Catholic4aReasn,
You are correct that the passage does say that God desires all men to be saved. On the other hand Paul says that God has the right to save some men. That is a mysteryof God that cannot be explained. I have posted this contradiction before and never gotten a good answer. It is a mystery how both can be true, but they are.

If God wills that all men be saved He will make sufficient grace for salvation available to all men. However, not all men will cooperate with God’s grace that he made available.

---

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[Les_Richardson]

schnur07:

If eventually those who are saved will be perfect beings in heaven, why didn’t He just create us there in the first place? What’s the point of earth?

I’ve asked this very question. And lately I’ve been asked the question by an agnostic and somewhat angry friend.

What does God want from us? Jesus told us that the most important commandment was to love God with all our heart and soul and mind. And the second was to love our neighbor as ourself. But the most interesting point He made there is in the Gospel of Matthew account. On those two commandments hang all the law and prophets.

That tells us what it was like before the fall, and it tells us the purpose for which we were created. To love God.

When we think about love and loving for a moment we see that love is not possible, that is love for the other’s own sake, without free will. Thus, in order for man to truly love God, he had to be created with the possibility of turning away from God. It was the risk that God took in order to create physical beings with a spiritual nature that would love Him.

And, of course, that is also the way back to Him. What is the ultimate expression of love? Self-sacrifice. Jesus said it, there’s is no greater love than giving up one’s life for a friend. Well, He did that too. The Second Person of the Trinity gave up His life, for us.

Astonishing when you think about it.

In some ways that doesn’t answer the question, without the experience of the love of God. When you truly love Him for His own sake, and seek Him out, through Christ, God overflows His love back upon you. That’s Grace and its a foretaste, if you will, of that state we will find ourselves in after this world is over.

What was Christ’s question to Peter? Three times, “do you love me?”

God keeps asking human beings the same question throughout history, “do you love me?” Until each individual dies He keeps asking, and sadly, there are many who die without saying yes.

But there are also those who say yes! Yes Lord, and they experience His love. That’s the whole purpose, the meaning of life, right there.

 

[Les_Richardson]

SavedByHim:

So, I guess my questions is, is ANYONE assured of being saved? I mean, since we are all sinners, how can we guarantee we will be saved? Or can’t we???

God doesn’t renege, doesn’t change the rules midstream, is constant, loving and always there. That is our **assurance **of salvation. We can rely on Him.

So are we asking for a blank cheque? The only variable in the equation is us. Do we remain faithful to the end?

If we need a contract that gives us a “get-out-of-hell” free card, we are clearly expecting to screw up are we not?

Protestants call it “back-sliding” and catholics call it “mortal sin.” Either way, our salvation would be in doubt, by our own fault. So we have the sacrament of Reconciliation. What a beautiful thing!

It ain’t easy, but it makes absolute sense. And all the while we’re out of tune with God, He keeps speaking to us, drawing us back. Giving us a whack up side the head if necessary. He wants us back, and He actively pursues us. We have to be really obstinate to go back to sin and remain there once we’ve experienced God’s grace. It can happen, but God never gives up on us.