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buffalo
Guest
God didn’t originally create us in sin. Because of man’s (Adam and Eve) disobedience to God all subsequent men are prone to sin.
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
Yes, you don’t get faith by walking across the street, or by deciding, “I’m going to have faith today”.
That doesn’t mean that you have no chance of having faith, that it’s some kind of cosmic crapshoot.
Faith is a free gift of God.
Now, isn’t there that part in the gospel about asking and receiving?
Matthew 7:7-12
Here: Ask, and it shall be given you: seek, and you shall find: knock, and it shall be opened to you. 8 For every one that asketh, receiveth: and he that seeketh, findeth: and to him that knocketh, it shall be opened. 9 Or what man is there among you, of whom if his son shall ask bread, will he reach him a stone? 10 Or if he shall ask him a fish, will he reach him a serpent?
11 If you then being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children: how much more will your Father who is in heaven, give good things to them that ask him? 12 All things therefore whatsoever you would that men should do to you, do you also to them. For this is the law and the prophets.
All who seek Him with a sincere heart will find Him.
That doesn’t mean that you have no chance of having faith, that it’s some kind of cosmic crapshoot.
Faith is a free gift of God.
Now, isn’t there that part in the gospel about asking and receiving?
Matthew 7:7-12
Here: Ask, and it shall be given you: seek, and you shall find: knock, and it shall be opened to you. 8 For every one that asketh, receiveth: and he that seeketh, findeth: and to him that knocketh, it shall be opened. 9 Or what man is there among you, of whom if his son shall ask bread, will he reach him a stone? 10 Or if he shall ask him a fish, will he reach him a serpent?
11 If you then being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children: how much more will your Father who is in heaven, give good things to them that ask him? 12 All things therefore whatsoever you would that men should do to you, do you also to them. For this is the law and the prophets.
All who seek Him with a sincere heart will find Him.
O
Origen
Guest
Do you ever notice that people get passionately angry when a high profile trial renders a not guilty verdict that seems to defy justice?
I won’t name names, but certain celebrities have been found not guilty of murder because they had the money to hire fancy lawyers.
Why do people take these perceived miscarriages of justice so personally, so passionately?
The answer is that desire for justice is a natural striving in all of us, and even then it is a mere reflection of our true striving for the perfect and everlasting justice of God the Father.
Let me turn the tables on you: perhaps it is I who should be troubled that you appear to wish that God would allow the miscarriage of justice, that He would allow the slick and arrogant to get a free pass?
Why in the world would God send his Son as a living sacrifice to atone for the sin of the world if He could just as easily have let us all off the hook?
Answer: because every violation of law must be atoned for in the name of divine justice. Otherwise divine justice is not justice at all.
We cry out for divine justice from the core of our beings! Please don’t wish it away out of fear, doubt, or worse yet, indoctrination in post-modernism.
I won’t name names, but certain celebrities have been found not guilty of murder because they had the money to hire fancy lawyers.
Why do people take these perceived miscarriages of justice so personally, so passionately?
The answer is that desire for justice is a natural striving in all of us, and even then it is a mere reflection of our true striving for the perfect and everlasting justice of God the Father.
Let me turn the tables on you: perhaps it is I who should be troubled that you appear to wish that God would allow the miscarriage of justice, that He would allow the slick and arrogant to get a free pass?
Why in the world would God send his Son as a living sacrifice to atone for the sin of the world if He could just as easily have let us all off the hook?
Answer: because every violation of law must be atoned for in the name of divine justice. Otherwise divine justice is not justice at all.
We cry out for divine justice from the core of our beings! Please don’t wish it away out of fear, doubt, or worse yet, indoctrination in post-modernism.
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ricatholic
Guest
Notice how people cry out like the "good"son of the prodgical son story? Then think of what Jesus taught about the situation.
Peace
O
Origen
Guest
A non-fundamentalist interpretation of the prodigal son story is that the younger son represents the Gentiles who will be saved by the mercy of Christ.
The older son, Israel, wants to know why the second son is given salvation, since the first born in Judaism carried special priveleges.
Jesus answer refers to the fact that both Jews and Gentiles have an equal share in the New Covenant. Far from alleviating the older son from his responsibility to live well, the father’s reply merely affirmed that he would not be replaced.
Jesus said he did not come to abolish an iota or dot of the law. It would be pretty weird if the prodigal son story was Jesus giving us all a “get out of hell free” card.
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ricatholic
Guest
O, actually the original post of yours implied a yearning for justice as understood not by the one receiving the penance, but what was yearned for by those observers or outsiders.
Yet in the prodgical son, one of the points Jesus makes is that it is not our place to be concerned for the extent of the justice metered out, our concern should be for our own relationship with Jesus.
Peace
O
Origen
Guest
Your post caused me to re-read the story of the Prodigal Son.
The younger son repented of his sins before he was forgiven and received by the Father. “Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I no longer deserve to be called your son; treat me as you would treat one of your hired workers.”
The older son did not see the Father’s celebration as a case of finding a guilty man not guilty.
This is perfectly consistent with my earlier point: every violation of the law must be atoned for. The young son atoned for his sin.
So what was the message to the older boy?
You have to know the place of birth order in Judaism. The oldest son has a place of honor. To see the younger one being honored after he repented, the older one was concerned that he had lost his own place of honor.
True, the older boy complained that the younger one was forgiven even though he squandered his Father’s fortune. But notice the Father didn’t chastise the older son for whining. In fact, the Father simply responded by reassuring the older son “you are here with me always; everything I have is yours.”
You see? The Father’s reassurance was not in defense of the younger son, nor to tell the older son not to judge. The Father’s response was to assure the older son that (1) his place of honor was secure in the family; (2) his inheritance was secure.
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Luke24
Guest
I suggest you read the book of **Romans **from beginning to end. If you need help contact me. I will be glad to help you understand.
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KennySe
Guest
Will you also explain that the Catholic Church practices witchcraft and idolatry, as you stated on another thread on this forum?
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PilgrimJWT
Guest
The Bible says God loves us utterly and completely beyond any human conprehension, which is truly awesome to contemplate. But the Bible strongly implies that only a handful of us will obtain salvation while the vast majority of us will be damned for eternity.
The Matthew gospel (Ch. 7) tells that that Christ Himself said that the path that leads to salvation is narrow, difficult and traveled by very few, while the path that leads to destruction is wide, easy and traveled by many. So does it seem unreasonable to conclude that God is a sadist, who offers glowing promises to humanity which will be realized only by that handful of people who have the strength of will to live up to His requirements, while He allows the vast majority to go into an eternity of misery and pain?
Or, is God a big-time loser, having set a course of events in motion in which the vast majority of His human creation will be claimed by His sworn enemy the devil (whom He Himself created and allowed to go wrong)?!
Now I am a puny creature among billions and certainly God can do anything he wants to do, and whatever He does is good by definition! But I can’t help thinking how strange God’s plan appears, and how this can be reconciled with the concept of an all-loving God!!
The Catholic Church is accepted by only about a sixth of all pelple on earth even after a couple of thousand years of missionary work. It implies that salvation outside it is difficult to obtain. In the U.S. there are about 60 million Catholics. Estimates are that from 80 to 90 percent disregard Church teaching on contraception, which is mortally sinful. Probably this is true in all of the developed world by even greater percentages. So is looks as if very few people will attain salvation!
I still believe God is a loving God, and I thank Him for having given me life, and so many gifts! But I hope He understands that I have grave difficulties in understanding Him, in view of what I have stated above.
The Matthew gospel (Ch. 7) tells that that Christ Himself said that the path that leads to salvation is narrow, difficult and traveled by very few, while the path that leads to destruction is wide, easy and traveled by many. So does it seem unreasonable to conclude that God is a sadist, who offers glowing promises to humanity which will be realized only by that handful of people who have the strength of will to live up to His requirements, while He allows the vast majority to go into an eternity of misery and pain?
Or, is God a big-time loser, having set a course of events in motion in which the vast majority of His human creation will be claimed by His sworn enemy the devil (whom He Himself created and allowed to go wrong)?!
Now I am a puny creature among billions and certainly God can do anything he wants to do, and whatever He does is good by definition! But I can’t help thinking how strange God’s plan appears, and how this can be reconciled with the concept of an all-loving God!!
The Catholic Church is accepted by only about a sixth of all pelple on earth even after a couple of thousand years of missionary work. It implies that salvation outside it is difficult to obtain. In the U.S. there are about 60 million Catholics. Estimates are that from 80 to 90 percent disregard Church teaching on contraception, which is mortally sinful. Probably this is true in all of the developed world by even greater percentages. So is looks as if very few people will attain salvation!
I still believe God is a loving God, and I thank Him for having given me life, and so many gifts! But I hope He understands that I have grave difficulties in understanding Him, in view of what I have stated above.
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Mijoy2
Guest
Tantum ergo:
I enjoyed the entirety of the post this quote came from. However I have difficulty philosophically with this concept. For two reasons:
- How can non-existence be “better than” eternal torment?
In fact, don’t people choose suicide to theorectically END torment? Maybe misguided but I think you get my point. - Non-existence is such a difficult concept to comprehend. In fact I’d contend impossible. For instance, if non-existence is “worse than” existence, what about the theoretical infinate number of “people” who do not exist? I can sit here now and conceive a person “Steve Jones” in my head and then ask God why he allows poor Steve to not exist. I know I know, sounds odd.
Maybe it’s better illustrated this way, allow difficult. Think of a love one suffering terribly in Hell. If you could end this suffering by having the person cease to exist, wouldn’t you? Isn’t there a quote from Jesus somewhere in the Bible (not yet a Biblical scholar), “it would be better for ------ if he were never born”.
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BobCatholic
Guest
There are only two people who go to hell.
- Those who are proud of their sins. As they’re heading down the escalator, they’re giving God the middle finger laughing.
- Those who are so ashamed that they didn’t repent of their sins, when they see God’s all perfect righteousness and say “I can’t go here, I’m too ashamed. I’d rather go to hell than deal with my extreme shame.”
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ricatholic
Guest
Why would those that feel so bad about their sins be sent to hell? Wouldn’t God recognize the shame as repentance and humbleness?
It is actually the opposite situation of example 1.
Peace
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kevinfraser
Guest
God does not ‘send’ us to heaven nor hell. We choose, not God. God respects our wills by saying to us “Thy will be done.” But He shows us precisely what that means first. At particular judgement, we see our life through His eyes. WE choose eternal ecstasy or eternal disaster – to quote Fr. Thomas Dubay in his excellent series “Bedrock Basics”: ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/seriessearchprog.asp?seriesID=6609
A wrong Catholic catechist taught you that. We are to build up His Holy Church through Baptism and Confirmation, to be absolved of sin in the sacrament of confession, to receive Him in the Eucharist in a state of grace, to image Him in living out our sacramental state of life (married, single, consecrated religious), and to receive the sacrament of the sick and viaticum when needed. There’s the commandments, beatitudes, corporeal and spiritual works of mercy. Not to mention Scripture and Magisterium. That’s a lot of help.
Rationalism seeks to put God in the defendant’s box and shout “J’accuse.” Please don’t do it.
What if * a hard time believing … Is God going to send me to hell?*Jesus demands not faith, but obedience. You fully live all the commandments, you’re guaranteed salvation.
schnur07:
We join ours with Christ’s from the foot of His Holy Cross.
schnur07:
We join our infinitesmal suffering with Christ’s incomprehensible suffering at the foot of His Holy Cross. Even though He doesn’t need us, He lets us help. Eyes on the prize: The Beatific Vision, beyond human understanding, is the point, as He created us for.
schnur07:
Catholics DO believe the Bible is Truth.
schnur07:
God is no trickster, setting us up for a fall.
schnur07:
He did. We’re fish out of water here. We weren’t created for suffering, but for Joy.
schnur07:
Following Jesus in carrying our crosses every day, trusting that He knows what’s best for us, no matter what happens.
schnur07:
I understand your meaning. Consider this: How can Jesus reward us for comforts we receive in this life? Seek to console The Crucified: ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/seriessearchprog.asp?seriesID=6618
Rather than desiring consolation, meditate on His Crucifixion because if you console Him, he WILL console you. You bring Him a thimble, he will give you Niagara Falls.
schnur07:
Jesus told us exactly how: “Give a cold cup of water to the least among you.”
Today, find a beggar. You know where they are. Ask if he/she’s eaten today. Your question will shock and amaze them. The answer will be no, even if they say ‘yes.’ Say “I will not give you money, but I will buy you a meal,” then do it–and supersize everything. Say “God bless you” as you leave them. By the powr of Christ crucified, you will have forced a little of Heaven onto Earth through an act of your free will. And you CANNOT outdo God in Generosity. The effects of the Mercy of God are very sticky, and you will become addicted at once.
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Ghosty
Guest
Actually you DO have the ability to be perfect. The Church does not teach that we were made to be sinners, but that we are made to be saints. You have the ability to choose God, and if you always choose God then you will be perfect.
Adam and Eve were made in a perfect state, but they rejected perfection. Their descendants are born in an imperfect state, but thanks to the Grace of God we all have the ability to reject our imperfection and become perfect. Many saints have done this, and Mary did it without ever even stumbling. Never doubt your ability to be perfect! Once you doubt your ability to be perfect, it becomes that much easier to simply accept your sins and cease striving for God.
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luckyirishguy14
Guest
I recently watched The History Channel’s special on “Heaven and Hell” and found out a perspective why this happens. God loves us so much that he allows us to choose whether we love him (free will). He will know who loves him, of course, by their works and faith. He loves us so much that he does not force love upon us, for he does not wish to become a “divine rapist” (forcing his love onto us, kinda makes sense to being rape).
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cute2904
Guest
God create hell for people who have question like you
jk!Well…our knowledge about God is limited because we are just his creation…so do not bother with so many questions in your faith
take it easy and let God lead your way… 
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RobedWithLight
Guest
Well, when God gave us existence, is it not better than non-existence? Creation is in itself a marvelous gift, something far beyond our own limited human power to do, yet in this very sublime act of creating us, he graciously gave us free will, the freedom to choose to love or reject Him, yet at the same time gave us the intelligence to understand the consequences of any choice we may make, not because God is ‘blackmailing’ us, but rather, was telling us the plain and simple truth, that rejection of Him and hence separation from Him, is not good.
Gerry
Gerry
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Traditionalist
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Justice!
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Terry_from_Ypsi
Guest
I believe in the Gospel of John that Hell is a place that was prepared for the devil and his angels.
Satan chose to “reign in hell versus serving in Heaven.”
It is interesting that in Greek mythology, Hell, Hades is a place which has a place of torment and a place of peace.
In my book, if I sincerely seek after God, He will not forsake me or abandon me. God knows that it is His grace at work in me that aides me through the narrow gate.
In my book, the justice of God, who is “slow to anger” and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness, can save anybody.
But I am warned that the road is “wide” that leads to perdition.
I remember that I am “God’s creature” created by Him, and He has made me His adopted son in Christ Jesus.
So, the choice I have is do I want to be a “son of God” or do I want to be one of the devil’s angels ?
Satan chose to “reign in hell versus serving in Heaven.”
It is interesting that in Greek mythology, Hell, Hades is a place which has a place of torment and a place of peace.
In my book, if I sincerely seek after God, He will not forsake me or abandon me. God knows that it is His grace at work in me that aides me through the narrow gate.
In my book, the justice of God, who is “slow to anger” and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness, can save anybody.
But I am warned that the road is “wide” that leads to perdition.
I remember that I am “God’s creature” created by Him, and He has made me His adopted son in Christ Jesus.
So, the choice I have is do I want to be a “son of God” or do I want to be one of the devil’s angels ?
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