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Verbum_Caro
Guest
I guess I don’t see it.Maybe I just don’t want to do justice to the accusation
Hmmm. Let me try another way of explaining what I mean. Ever see the Lord of the Rings movie, the first part?
VC
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Hmmm. Let me try another way of explaining what I mean. Ever see the Lord of the Rings movie, the first part?
VC
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Roman_Catholic_1
Guest
Hmmm, I am listening.
Hmmm. Let me try another way of explaining what I mean. Ever see the Lord of the Rings movie, the first part?
VC
God bless
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Verbum_Caro
Guest
Recall that scene (in the movie) where the Ring Wraiths stab the beds of the hobbits at the Inn, the Prancing Pony?
Just pillows there under the blankets, the Ring Wraiths were mistaken of course.
But, were they murderers?
In other words, attempted murder – the actual murder prevented by a mistake – is morally equivalent to murder.
VC
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cpayne
Guest
Here’s a thought (and, by the way, we still have not heard back from the OP): Why is this charge of cannibalism stressed so much by non-Catholics? In other words, think of what it would imply to a Protestant if the Real Presence of Christ actually is in Communion.
That would mean that the CC has the Presence of Christ, and Protestants have cut themselves off from that Presence.
I think that’s why this accusation never goes away: people are trying to scare Catholics away from belief in the Real Presence.
That would mean that the CC has the Presence of Christ, and Protestants have cut themselves off from that Presence.
I think that’s why this accusation never goes away: people are trying to scare Catholics away from belief in the Real Presence.
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Roman_Catholic_1
Guest
So we are attempted cannibals then.
However, the charge would be attempted homicide, and not homicide. I think an even better example would be some one who is arrested for using, or having on his person, drugs (or what he thought were drugs) which turned out to be nothing but oregano. In my state (I am not sure how others states work) this person would not fall under the “Dangerous Drugs” statutes of the state but rather under the “Imitation of Dangerous Drugs” statutes which are lesser offenses. The reason is, because that person is an idiot, and in the end does not have drugs of any kind on them.
In fact, if memory serves me right, the “imitation” statutes only come into play if the person in question either manufacturers, attempts to manufacture, distributes or attempts to distribute these imitation drugs. I do not believe just possessing them is a crime at all. I will have to look into that, but I am pretty sure it is not.However, all this would be avoided if the charge was, “Catholics believe they are cannibals” but it is not. The charge usually is, “Catholics are cannibals” To me, in order for someone to be a cannibal you must partake in the act of cannibalism. I do however see better what you are saying though. Thanks for taking the time.
God bless
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Mark77
Guest
This is a 2000 year old question?
Read John Chapter 6!
“As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore.” Jn 6:66.
After Jesus tells His followers 2000 years ago that they must eat His flesh and drink His blood many of His disciples leave Him. (666?)
They also totally misunderstood, this is the only place in Holy Scripture where any disciples leave Jesus!
"Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying, “How can this man give us His flesh to eat?” 53 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves. 54 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 "For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink. 56 “He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.” Jn 6:52-56
It is Truly His Flesh and His Blood, but it is not ordinary human flesh, it is Life, it is God, therefore it is not cannibalism.
Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!
Mark
Read John Chapter 6!
“As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore.” Jn 6:66.
After Jesus tells His followers 2000 years ago that they must eat His flesh and drink His blood many of His disciples leave Him. (666?)
They also totally misunderstood, this is the only place in Holy Scripture where any disciples leave Jesus!
"Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying, “How can this man give us His flesh to eat?” 53 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves. 54 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 "For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink. 56 “He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.” Jn 6:52-56
It is Truly His Flesh and His Blood, but it is not ordinary human flesh, it is Life, it is God, therefore it is not cannibalism.
Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!
Mark
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graceandglory
Guest
Well!!! It’s about time!!!
The “are we cannibals” discussion was addressed by Christ. Of course when He says that we are to eat his flesh, His faithful Jewish disciples had a problem with that.
Human beings aren’t kosher.:dts:
The rest of the story:
Just like protestants today who can’t wrap their mind around the Eucharist, many of Jesus’ disciples left Him at that point.
Simon Peter however, responds, “no way, we won’t go! You have the words of everlasting life!”
And now you know…
the rest of the story.
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bobballen_18
Guest
OK, I liked this reply. I just recently came across someone calling Catholics cannibals, and though he was told while it is in the form of bread and wine, it is actually His body and blood, he said, ok, you can’t contradict yourself, it has to be one or the other. You saying God can be in any form refutes that…for some reason, I wouldn’t have known what to say. I guess the conclusion is that it doesn’t matter what form He’s in; if He says it’s Him, it is!
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geekborj
Guest
Quick search on cannibalism is that this is the eating of human flesh by a human or humans. In a more general scope this is under the term “anthropophagy”, under which includes the Eucharist = “the ceremonial eating of Jesus’s body as wine and bread”.
Probably a non-Catholic description of the Eucharist.
As Catholics, we are to believe that the Eucharist IS the body and blood of Christ. So, indeed Catholics practice anthropophagy.
Within the economy of salvation, however, Catholics theologically feast on the one single Holy Sacrifice that is the Lamb of God. If one will follow the history of (christian) salvation, eating Christ’s body/flesh and drinking his blood is required to be part of God’s Israel and be saved.
Technically however, one cannot prove that catholics are cannibals because the accidents are still bread and wine. In the end, catholics will truly have to accept that they are cannibals in the true sense of the Real Presence.
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FidesSpesCarita
Guest
Ok, my turn.
Geekborj said above that we, by definition, participate in anthropophagy so yes, Catholics may be called Cannibals since Christ was True God and True Man.
That being said however, we are commanded by Christ to eat his flesh and drink his blood and compared his own body to Manna
As Tom (Flashbacks to facebook with the Tom moniker… shudder inducing) posted above God has appeared many times as many different things, even at one point Christ being a literal rock that followed Moses through the desert so to assume that God cannot make a communion host become his body and blood is a bit of a stretch.
Also, since everything that is in the old testament (the old covenant, the old ark which was lost, the temple, the prophets, etc.) appears in the new testament in a glorified and perfected way, would it make sense that God would NOT give us a glorified and perfected Manna, the bread which fed the israelites in the desert? I dont know about you, but I see us living in a time of unprecedented spiritual desolation, so I cannot think that God would forget to feed us or ignore our need for spiritual food that keeps alive the soul.
I suppose the short answer is Yes, we are cannibals. But, there being no biblical command against cannibalism and the fact that there is quite a lengthy diatribe from our Lord that we MUST do this to have life within us means that in this case it is permissible.
But that is just one mans opinion
FSC
Geekborj said above that we, by definition, participate in anthropophagy so yes, Catholics may be called Cannibals since Christ was True God and True Man.
That being said however, we are commanded by Christ to eat his flesh and drink his blood and compared his own body to Manna
God had already given us (people of the Judaic tradition) Manna to eat that kept only the body alive. Christ has become for us a form/type of Manna which enlivens the soul to the point where even death is not an obstacle.
As Tom (Flashbacks to facebook with the Tom moniker… shudder inducing) posted above God has appeared many times as many different things, even at one point Christ being a literal rock that followed Moses through the desert so to assume that God cannot make a communion host become his body and blood is a bit of a stretch.
Also, since everything that is in the old testament (the old covenant, the old ark which was lost, the temple, the prophets, etc.) appears in the new testament in a glorified and perfected way, would it make sense that God would NOT give us a glorified and perfected Manna, the bread which fed the israelites in the desert? I dont know about you, but I see us living in a time of unprecedented spiritual desolation, so I cannot think that God would forget to feed us or ignore our need for spiritual food that keeps alive the soul.
I suppose the short answer is Yes, we are cannibals. But, there being no biblical command against cannibalism and the fact that there is quite a lengthy diatribe from our Lord that we MUST do this to have life within us means that in this case it is permissible.
But that is just one mans opinion
FSC
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Brian_Culliton
Guest
This is interesting. You are saying no, but you explanation suggests that your answer should be yes.
From the website of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB):
Isn’t this what you are saying is cannibalism?
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Big_Dummy
Guest
For the sake of arugument, let’s say catholics are in fact cannibals. Where does the NT forbid drinking and eating the blood and body of people?
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Bookcat
Guest
No…but that was one of the accusations of the pagans towards the early Christians…
catholic.com/thisrock/2001/0103sbs.asp
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kbajar
Guest
I thought cannibals eat the flesh of dead persons. We consume the Living Christ, a Divine (not human) Person, with both a Human and Divine Nature.
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Tomb54
Guest
Wow good distinction. I guess cannibals didn’t want their food to fight back. But as stated before this is one of the things early Christians were accused of when they were persecuted so this should make a protestant think why was this the case. I also think the early Christians then were put to death because they would not deny that they were eating the body of their Lord nor would they deny they were drinking His Blood.
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Brian_Culliton
Guest
Really?
“For what sensual or intemperate man, or who that counts it good to feast on human flesh, could welcome death that he might be deprived of his enjoyments, and would not rather continue always the present life, and attempt to escape the observation of the rulers; and much less would he denounce himself when the consequence would be death? This also the wicked demons have now caused to be done by evil men. For having put some to death on account of the accusations falsely brought against us, they also dragged to the torture our domestics, either children or weak women, and by dreadful torments forced them to admit those fabulous actions which they themselves openly perpetrate; about which we are the less concerned, because none of these actions are really ours, and we have the unbegotten and ineffable God as witness both of our thoughts and deeds.” (2nd Apology, Chapter 12)
Justin thoroughly denied the claim that Christians were eating actual flesh in his apologies.
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Cat_Herder
Guest
[SIGN1]SELECTIVE QUOTATION FAIL[/SIGN1]
“And this food is called among us Eucharist, of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, “This do ye in remembrance of Me, this is My body;” and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, “This is My blood;” and gave it to them alone. Which the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done. For, that bread and a cup of water are placed with certain incantations in the mystic rites of one who is being initiated, you either know or can learn.” (1st Apology, Chapter LXVI)
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Tomb54
Guest
My highlight but you noticed he said Human flesh (in otherwords any old human) and I said the flesh of our Lord. I think this comment of mine is right because our Lord told us to eat His flesh and drink His blood and this is what we do. I think I will do what the Lord told us to do and not pick and chose part of what an ECF was saying unless you read all what he wrote to understand the whole picture.
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Cat_Herder
Guest
The accusation against the early Christians to which Justin Martyr is alluding is that they ate each other.
“Is there any other matter, my friends, in which we are blamed, than this, that we live not after the law, and are not circumcised in the flesh as your forefathers were, and do not observe sabbaths as you do? Are our lives and customs also slandered among you? And I ask this: have you also believed concerning us, that we eat men; and that after the feast, having extinguished the lights, we engage in promiscuous concubinage? Or do you condemn us in this alone, that we adhere to such tenets, and believe in an opinion, untrue, as you think?” – Justin Martyr’s dialogue with Trypho, chapter X
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Peter_Gabriel
Guest
Where? He thoroughly affirms that it is Christ’s flesh and blood in his First Apology, Chapter 66.
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