Are we losing the evangelization race to Protestants?

[Trebor135]

It’s neither fair nor accurate for you to look at someone who declines to say “I follow Paul” or “I follow Apollos”- instead saying “I follow Christ”- and declare this position to be theological relativism.

But neither Catholics nor Orthodox say “I follow Paul” or “I follow Apollos”; instead, both adhere to what they believe to be the apostolic faith handed down from generation to generation under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. The two communions firmly reject the error of ecclesial deism.

Protestant denominations were all founded by particular men and women–Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Stone/Campbell, White–so even if some groups are able to reach mutual agreement on matters of doctrine, their adherents will then all be following a small group of Paul’s and Apollos’s, rather than just one particular Paul or Apollo.

I don’t know why you would struggle with the fact that Protestants can work so well together, including and especially on the mission field.

Because in order to do so, they have to treat certain issues as expendable. By what mechanism will Lutherans, Presbyterians, and Pentecostals be obliged to give up their long-held beliefs regarding baptism?

It’s something you should be envious of.

Why?

And even if you’re not, you will eventually have to accept the fact that it’s somewhere in the future for your church.

I’m discerning between Orthodoxy and Catholicism at the moment. But no matter which path I take, I will be obliged to say no.

We are showing you a good example of something that you should try to live up to. We are getting it done in a good way, and you are trenchant in your insistence that you do it the wrong way. If you want to get it right and come join us, you’re welcome to it.

You speak of evangelizing in a “good” way or the “right” manner. But where do we find compromising on truth to be advocated by Jesus and the apostles?

But since you insist on eliminating all alternatives except for competition- excuse me, let me check on that. Are there any other options you would entertain? Oh, I see, the only outcome you’ll fully accept is one in which there are no “other” Christians for you to compete with because they all decided to convert to Catholicism. That’s lovely, and quite cheeky of you. In that case, game on, baby.

You seem to find offensive the notion that one particular group has rightful claim to offering the most complete form of Christianity. But where do we find denominationalism and sectarianism supported or condoned in the Bible?

 

[adf417]

You got “negotiating their wants” out of that? Really? Is something the matter with you? See if you can misinterpret that, too.

Unity among Christians from different denominations is hard, but we are working on it. It’s not something that you back into by being lazy, and it doesn’t happen by accident. Para-church organizations and inter-denominational evangelism and missions is the start. Mainline churches are approaching the end of a process whereby they come to an agreement on the RP and any of their priests/ministers can lead a service and administer Communion at any of the other mainline churches. And then there’s the thing I described- more of a long term goal that you so terribly summarized as “negotiation of wants.” Really, that assessment was just terrible. I compared it to the process of peer-review by experts in fields like science or history. Do you have a decent education? Are you familiar with how academia works? Do you understand that it’s not a negotiation of wants, but a process by which experts determine what can be demonstrated as truth and what cannot? It’s a process that works, by the way. We’re working on that and while it does need to be tightened up some- and while it may take some time to grab headlines and really rise to prominence- it’s coming along. But that’s for us to focus on right now and for you to really notice at a later time.

No Six, I didn’t get “negotiating their wants” from this. I got it from this quote from the other thread where you are describing as what I might term as an Evangelical/Protestant Magisterium:

Experts work together in something less like a Council and more like a Society that largely consists of people (experts) writing things and reviewing each others’ work, and through this process, they constantly have a variety of matters that are under consideration while reaching consensus on certain matters which they are of one mind in holding fast to or rejecting.

But here is where you will set me straight I’m sure, sense there is something the matter with me and my lack of education.

BTW I like the last line (bolded). It seems to fit what is becoming your agenda very well.

Peace!!!

 

[Alan55]

If you really believe we’re Christians, then why do you see it as a competition? Why can’t you just be happy the Gospel is being preached?

Or is it that, like most Catholics, you don’t see us as Christians?

Most evangelical and pentecostal evangelism, particularly in the Americas, is aimed not at unbelievers but at Catholics and former Catholics. That makes Catholics a little sensitive.

 

[Semper_Zelare]

This is specific to Africa. In general, Catholics are losing the overall evangelization race. But in Africa, it’s more of a toss-up. Things could open up for you in southeast Asia at some point, too, but that’s another place where we have a head start on you.

Africa is the place you’re doing best, and America and Africa together are the places we’re doing best. Europe is bad for both of us, the Americas in general are bad for you, and there’s more immediate upside for us in the most populous parts of the globe. Overall, Protestants are gaining ground on you and leaving the Orthodox even further behind. But for Africa, taken on its own, my summary is something like what it is there.

Where do you get this stuff?

I mean… I’m a bit of a number cruncher. So, I’m sorry if I’m skeptical of an entirely un-sourced statement by a self described Evangelical coming onto a Catholic forum just to trumpet how well Evangelical Protestants are doing in regards to evangelism.

When you say “the Americas in general are bad for you”… I mean, considering that the Catholic Church has large majorities in 19 out of 26 countries in the Americas… I’m at a loss. In fact, from this wikipedia page: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_by_country I get this inforomation:

**The Caribbean is 78% Catholic
Central America is 75% Catholic
North America is 38% Catholic
and South America is 80% Catholic

Overall the Americas are 59% Catholic, making up 48% of all Catholics in the world.
**

Considering that the Catholic Church is the largest religious group in 39% of counties in the United States… I would find this hard to believe.

BUT, what makes this truly APPALLING for me to hear… is that I know for a FACT that the greatest gains made through evangelism in the United States between 2000 and 2010 were made by the Mormons and the Catholic Church. This is the case in 41 U.S. states. Protestant groups made the biggest gains in only 9 states during this time… and 7 different Protestant Churches split these gains among themselves.

The Association of Religious Data published their report. And I read through it… and the Mormons made the biggest gains in 30 states, Catholics in 11 states, and the Assembly of God in 3 states.
The remaining 6 states were all split by a single Protestant Church: 1. Church of Christ, 2. Evangelical Covenant Church, 3. Evangelical Free Church of America, 4. Southern Baptist Convention, 5. United Methodist, 6. Wesleyan Church

So, do you care to revise your statement of: “the Americas in general are bad for you [Catholics]”

 

[Trebor135]

When you say “the Americas in general are bad for you”… I mean, considering that the Catholic Church has large majorities in 19 out of 26 countries in the Americas… I’m at a loss. In fact, from this wikipedia page: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_by_country I get this inforomation:

**The Caribbean is 78% Catholic
Central America is 75% Catholic
North America is 38% Catholic
and South America is 80% Catholic

Overall the Americas are 59% Catholic, making up 48% of all Catholics in the world.
**

Protestantism has made significant inroads into many Latin American countries (data taken from here):

Brazil: Protestant 15.4%

Chile: Evangelical 15.1%

Colombia: other 10% (we can assume a large proportion of this group is Protestant)

Costa Rica: Evangelical 13.7%, other Protestant 0.7%

El Salvador: Protestant 21.2%

Guatemala: Protestant (no statistics are listed for the country, but Wikipedia–without citing a source–says 40%)

Haiti: Protestant 16%

Mexico: Protestant 5.2%

Nicaragua: Protestant 23.2% (Evangelical 21.6%, Moravian 1.6%)

Panama: Protestant 15%

Paraguay: Protestant 6.2%, other Christian 1.1%

Peru: Evangelical 12.5%

Puerto Rico: Protestant and other 15%

Uruguay: non-Catholic Christians 11.1%, nondenominational 23.2%

These numbers may seem relatively insignificant given the continued Catholic majorities in these and neighbouring countries, but it is doubtful that most Catholics in Latin America are practicing.

 

[MasterAsia]

News Update: Bishop admits! Catholic Church Losing Members
Source: ph.news.yahoo.com/catholic-church-losing-members-113620883.html;ylt=AgfA1l1g5Snk.kLeMzkC_sTiV8d;_ylu=X3oDMTNqZmU5ZW1vBGNjb2RlA2N0LmMEcGtnA2RjOWVjMjdjLWEwNTAtM2QyZS04Y2MwLTdlODA3MTVjZjE0OARwb3MDMgRzZWMDbW9zdF9wb3B1bGFyBHZlcgM2MWQ0YWZmMC1hZTc5LTExZTEtYmZiYi0wMjIwNmNiMDlhNjc-;_ylg=X3oDMTFlY2o2bnBpBGludGwDcGgEbGFuZwNlbi1waARwc3RhaWQDBHBzdGNhdAMEcHQDc2VjdGlvbnM-;_ylv=3

“You’ll notice that in the people attending El Shaddai, Soldiers of Christ and the gathering of Brother Bo Sanchez. A lot of people really attend these gatherings,” said the spiritual adviser of El Shaddai.

But Bacani said they don’t find the situation alarming, adding that it’s more of an “eye opener” for them to change their way of preaching. (Comment: This is false, they are not preaching.)

“It’s not alarming. I think it draws our attention for us to change the way we deliver our homilies, make them livelier,” he said.

The news title is misleading, because those “charismatic groups” are Catholic laity organizations. You see, the bishops would ONLY evangelize the already evangelized Catholics.

The elephant in the room is Catholics are moving away to other denominations.

Interesting laity quote therein:

Okay naman po kami sa Catholic Church dahil sapul pa ay Katoliko na kami. Pero huwag na pong makialam sa pulitika. Huwag na pong panigan ang mga tiwaling opisyal, payagan na po ang health care for women, infants and children at tulungan na lang ang mga mahihirap sa kanilang araw araw na pangangailangan…

Rough translation to English:

We are fine with the Catholic Church, because we have been Catholic ever since. But, please don’t interfere with politics anymore. Please don’t side with corrupt officials and allow health care reform for women, infants and children; and help the poorest of the poor in their everday needs.

A background on the weighted statements above. The most powerful archbishops and bishops in the Philippines were fighting for then Chief Justice Corona who was subsequently found guilty of culpable violation of the law (of all laws it was the constitution) and was forcibly removed from office.

A weird thing here is that the Catholic bishops aligned themselves with anti-Catholic Protestants Iglesia ni Cristo in saving a corrupt official’s skin.

I am against the reproductive health bill, but the Church must at least share ways how to go about our problems here in the Philippines. The Church owns all elite universities with research capability and has assets to the tune of BILLIONS. Surely they can educate or research agricultural advancement that can help the ever-increasing population, instead of holding those billions in limbo.

 

[MasterAsia]

If you really believe we’re Christians, then why do you see it as a competition? Why can’t you just be happy the Gospel is being preached?

Or is it that, like most Catholics, you don’t see us as Christians?

This is not true.

We, Catholics consider our Protestant brothers Christians. Protestants will publicly declare Catholics as apostates (non-Christians).

Here is a funny example.

The Philippines is the ONLY Christian nation in Asia. More than 80% are Catholics. But our Miss Universe (Shamcey Supsup) candidate, a Protestant, publicly stated that Catholics are not Christians.

Talk about misrepresentation and disrespect to the majority of Filipinos, but that is just typical Protestant here.

 

[kentuckyliz]

Catholics turn pagans into Christians.
Protestants then go in and try and convert the Catholics.

 

[Trebor135]

Here is a funny example.

The Philippines is the ONLY Christian nation in Asia. More than 80% are Catholics. But our Miss Universe (Shamcey Supsup) candidate, a Protestant, publicly stated that Catholics are not Christians.

Talk about misrepresentation and disrespect to the majority of Filipinos, but that is just typical Protestant here.

How much success are the Protestant missionaries enjoying among young Catholics in the Philippines?

 

[Semper_Zelare]

I am against the reproductive health bill, but the Church must at least share ways how to go about our problems here in the Philippines. The Church owns all elite universities with research capability and has assets to the tune of BILLIONS. Surely they can educate or research agricultural advancement that can help the ever-increasing population, instead of holding those billions in limbo.

1. You never responded to my post #25 on this thread, in which I called your post out for anti-clerical statements.
2. Are you including the value of Churches, Schools, Hospitals, and Charities in this “BILLIONS worth of Assets”? Because then the implication would be that you think the Church should sell these institutions and help the poor… as if these institutions didn’t already do that.
3. You may be a Filipino Catholic, but you sure do talk about the Church like a Protestant or an Atheist. “The priests and Bishops don’t evangelize at all, they are idle, and their idleness leads them to abuse” … “The Church has so much wealth, why doesn’t it use it for the poor?”

You sound like Martin Luther. … or am I missing something here? Because that’s my assessment. You may be Catholic but it sounds like you don’t like the Church or the clergy. Am I wrong?

 

[Arrowsmith1994]

In many ways, we are. In fact, we’re losing many of our own to the Evangelical movement. Dr. Norman Geisler, prominent Evangelical author and professor, says as much here when he discusses that even though a few Evangelical “eggheads” (that is, individuals who have made a deep study of theology and faith) convert to Catholicism, the Evangelical movement is “winning” because they are recruiting “tens of thousands of converts out the bottom of Catholicism” - that is, our poorly catechized brethren.

I have always kind of seen Protestantism as cheerleaders for God, whereas Catholicism is God’s debate team. Lots of folks (including the aforementioned poorly catechized Catholics) want to be told that they’re doing great and that everything is going to be okay. That message resonates better with them than the truth offered by the Church, which is that you’re not doing great (i.e., we’re all sinners), and you have a responsibility to recognize that and correct it (go to Reconciliation), but that thankfully God in His infinite mercy still loves you (and allows you to participate in His sacrifice via the Eucharist).

It never ceases to amaze me how many people leave the Church because they “don’t feel close to Jesus there.” We consume Him. You don’t get any closer than that.

Yes, I like what you said and agree. But how dow we evangelize the intellectual atheist? I don’t think Protestantism has an answer for this. The world of academia has rejected Christianity. As the Christian debate team, I think only Catholicism can win them back.

 

[peace2u2]

Evangelisation isn’t a “race” to bring in the most members in the fastest amount of time. Quality matters more than quanity, and it doesn’t matter if you convert the entire world in a week if most of those converts fail to make a sincere and long-term commitment. A sincere commitment requires time; that’s why RCIA lasts a few months.

That’s also why soapbox preaching, distributing pocket bibles and flyers, are rarely effective in bringing in new members, generally people who have already considered converting for a while.

I agree with your post and I believe the Catholic Church is out “evangelizing” and has missionaries in even the remotest corners of the earth.

Matthew 6:1

"(But) take care not to perform righteous deeds in order that people may see them; otherwise, you will have no recompense from your heavenly Father.

 

[Trebor135]

Yes, I like what you said and agree. But how dow we evangelize the intellectual atheist? I don’t think Protestantism has an answer for this. The world of academia has rejected Christianity. As the Christian debate team, I think only Catholicism can win them back.

Evangelical Protestantism, especially of the Pentecostal or non-denominational variety, lacks any basis in history. I would expect few in the “world of academia [which] has rejected Christianity” to find that branch of the religion to be very credible.

Even so, Glenn Miller and William Lane Craig, for instance, are low-church Protestants respected by non-Christians (or at least I have that impression), and neither of them are becoming Catholic, or the like, any time soon.

 

[peace2u2]

If you really believe we’re Christians, then why do you see it as a competition? Why can’t you just be happy the Gospel is being preached?

Or is it that, like most Catholics, you don’t see us as Christians?

I am assuming that you are of a Protestant denomination?

Assuming that you are Protestant, I think most Catholic Christians do see Protestant’s as Christians and were happy that the Gospel is being preached. But we believe that the Teaching Magisterium of the Catholic Church guides us in what we preach.

We believe that our Protestant brothers and sisters in Christ have a part of the Truth, but we also believe that the fullness of God’s Truth and Grace is only found in the Catholic Church.

Peace.

 

[Geist]

We don’t evangelize like we should.

We are ashamed of calling ourselves catholics-saying mostly that we are “christians” or at worst using a new age phrase like " I believe in a higher being". We hesitate and skirt around our catholicism.

We tend to proudly say " we don’t proselitize" like a badge of honor.

With protestantism, it just rolls of the tongue…" I’m christian". It’s so much easier.

I say, " I am catholic". When someone comes back with , “well, we’re christians” I say, " well, Catholics are the original christians".

I am prepared to go the distance in any debate or argument-not by violent means or rude answers but by firm dogmatic formulas.

We may be losing the evangelization race to protestants but, not in my camp.

You don’t think Roman Catholic rolls of the tongue? Throw in “Apostolic” at the beginning and I guarantee an opportunity to evangelize.

 

[MasterAsia]

How much success are the Protestant missionaries enjoying among young Catholics in the Philippines?

The equivalent of a “televangelist megachurch” here in the Philippines is the CCF. They are active in inviting young Catholics for Bible encounter groups. Most of the members are ex-Catholics, in fact, I have to yet know a 20+ year old that is born as a Protestant.

In those groups I am one of the few who would question their teachings for the Catholic side.

A testament to the success of Protestant missionaries is the case for the one of the most famous Catholics in the world today, Manny “Pacman” Pacquiao. The Pacman is now deep into Bible Study, courtesy of Protestant pastors. Catholic bishops were alarmed and aired their concern publicly, thankfully Pacman said he would remain Catholic.

I hope I have answered your question.

 

[MasterAsia]

1. You never responded to my post #25 on this thread, in which I called your post out for anti-clerical statements.

Thank you for reminding me, please be assured that I will visit your post #25 after this reply.

1. Are you including the value of Churches, Schools, Hospitals, and Charities in this “BILLIONS worth of Assets”? Because then the implication would be that you think the Church should sell these institutions and help the poor… as if these institutions didn’t already do that.

Catholic Charities (speaking from experience) are largely manned and funded by the laity.

Remember we are a third world country, so it is a bit weird that the Church holds stock market assets (think of NYSE or NASDAQ, stateside), not to mention land holdings since the Spanish era.

Also our Catholic universities are the premier institutions of learning. We are third-world, so please don’t be shocked when I tell you that these schools are the most expensive in the Philippines.

I hope you don’t mind me asking where are you coming from? I live in the third-world, we are often times misunderstood.

1. You may be a Filipino Catholic, but you sure do talk about the Church like a Protestant or an Atheist. “The priests and Bishops don’t evangelize at all, they are idle, and their idleness leads them to abuse” … “The Church has so much wealth, why doesn’t it use it for the poor?”

I humbly request for your conscience and an open-heart. I do not question the teachings of the Church, I have defended them many times against Protestant preachers.

Please bear in mind the situation here in the Philippines, there are almost no atheists here.

As a concerned laity, do I have no right to remind the clergy to do what Jesus Christ commanded them to do? Isn’t it the truth that all these sexual abuses came about after the evangelization of other faiths stopped?

You sound like Martin Luther. … or am I missing something here? Because that’s my assessment. You may be Catholic but it sounds like you don’t like the Church or the clergy. Am I wrong?

You certainly missing a lot. I appeal to members of the church who wants her to remain holy in the sight of the Lord.

 

[MasterAsia]

Well what about all the Bishops in the Philippines which are railing against the Reproductive Health Bill, which is being funded by American secularist and liberal groups like Planned Parenthood?

We are not aware of these American secularist and liberal groups like Planned Parenthood. They are alien to us, and the people pushing for the Reproductive Health bill are anti-Americans with communist background.

I am against the Reproductive Health Bill.

I mean, I’m not from the Philippines… but I’ll call people out for making anti-clerical attacks ANYWHERE, and that sounds like what you’re doing to me. The Philippines is the only country outside the Vatican where divorce is illegal… and annulments are the only thing that is legal. Y’all have very little access to contraception, and of course abortion is illegal in all circumstances… so wouldn’t you say that the Church leadership there is at least somewhat responsible for all of this?

We are naturally against abortion, this is the Philippines, even liberals (majority) are against abortion. We are against divorce.

Are those the only things that are important here? Certainly not. Obviously, since you have admitted that you are a “regular” clerical defender, you simply discarded our genuine concerns.

We need a sympathetic ear, not someone who will hastily label people as a “Martin Luther.”

Anyways, the last part that I’m quoting of yours sounds like the age old attack on the clergy… “they’re idle, therefore their idleness leads to abuse”. Well… from what I’ve observed I think it’s near impossible for a priest to be idle. They have a ridiculous amount of things that are on their plate. I can only imagine that to be MORE TRUE in a country with a lot of Mass going Catholics.

Regarding this point I think you have forgotten we are in a thread that talks about how we are losing the evangelization race to Protestants.

My counterpoint is that before the clergy suddenly stopped in evangelization works, they were administering the sacraments TO MORE CATHOLICs and doing evangelization work at the same time.

Remember how the great Pope John Paul II has said that these days the Church are producing fewer saints? I wonder what had changed?

How many confessions do priests hear a week in a country [The Philippines] where a Parish Church has 10 or 11 Masses on Saturday and Sunday?

10 masses a day on a Sunday? Please cite sources, because the most that we’ve seen are five in a holy day.

Confessions will depend on the availability of the priest.

I might comment on the overall question of the thread that how many converts can Protestants gain in a country where they visit for a few weeks or a few months as a Missionary, and the Catholic Church has all native-born priests and Bishops? Just saying… in many countries Protestant evangelism looks a little more like colonialism from America’s Bible Belt, whereas Catholicism has really always been about the local Church.
An established local Church is normally more fruitful than the actions of missionaries alone… and the Catholic Church has a lot more of those than Protestants do.

You are probably referring to some other continent as the leading protestant ministers here are Filipinos.

And that is a very weak argument because that can be said of Catholicism too. Remember in the Philippines, before Catholicism the dominant religion was Islam.

 

[Contarini]

I have a particular interest in Muslims who convert to Christianity and in particular Catholicism due to having Muslim friends. I was reading an article on how 6 million Muslims a year convert to Christianity in Africa. I was just wondering how many of those were Catholic vs Protestant. I Dnt really hear that much about Catholic evangelization, but that’s all I ever heard as a Protestant. Do we Do it like the Protestants do and I just Dnt notice?

I don’t think it’s a “race.” More of a cycle.

Evangelicals (not so much other forms of Protestantism) are very good at bringing people into a relationship with Jesus. Catholics could certainly learn a lot from them.

However, evangelicalism is in important ways parasitic on Catholicism. Evangelical intellectuals are increasingly coming to realize this, though of course some are trying to deny it.

I don’t know how this will play out in the long run. Only God does. The thing is to be faithful and not panic or judge success by numerical standards.

Edwin

 

[Trebor135]

Evangelicals (not so much other forms of Protestantism) are very good at bringing people into a relationship with Jesus. Catholics could certainly learn a lot from them.

Indeed.

However, evangelicalism is in important ways parasitic on Catholicism. Evangelical intellectuals are increasingly coming to realize this, though of course some are trying to deny it.

Please elaborate.