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CMatt25
Guest
I don’t know if you are losing or not. But I know there’s a saying that says something about catching more flies with honey than vinegar.
- Status
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Singapore_Nick
Guest
hi, are you from the Philippines ? It seems that pentacostals are gaining grounds in traditional Catholic Philippines. Here in Singapore, I’ve observed many former Catholic Pinoys attending non-Catholic workship on Sundays.
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MasterAsia
Guest
MasterAsia;9410972:
Thank you sir. But let me reiterate Filipinos is a lot like Catholicism in terms of having “a worldwide” presence. Even the servants of certain Muslim dictators are Filipino Christians - hmm. I wonder why they wouldn’t trust their children to fellow Muslims.
Anyways, if I wanted to play devil’s advocate I’d say: “well, you admit that none of the Filipino clergy are even orthodox… maybe that’s why the link in my signature shows Pope Benedict calling for America to be at the forefront of the New Evangelization.” … He’s quite concerned about orthodoxy after all. The Church is getting its own house in order right now… once most of the priests and Bishops are orthodox, we’re going to be evangelizing HARD!
Thank you sir again.
I agree, after reading some things about Mother Angelica, Pope Benedict is spot on in having her (and EWTN) on the frontlines. But I hope his holiness the pope will not forget about the laity and Filipinos. The church is not only the clergy, but more of the laity.
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MasterAsia
Guest
Yes sir.
In the Philippines Protestants are gaining ground. Hardwork (Protestant evangelization) does handsomely pay them back. Also our American friendly culture (as Protestants are from America and there are a LOT of American Protestant missionaries here) and innate hospitality will really have us consent at least to the first several sessions.
The good news is the Philippines is unique that we also regain many reverts (as per personal experience). The bad news is every year the ratio of returning believers or converts are lessening (the problems with the American and Irish church sex scandals are not helping).
H
happy_88
Guest
Are we losing the Evangelization race to the Protestants?
When we are asking this question I think that we are missing the point. Are the Protestants securing new converts to hell? The opposite question needs to be asked to the protestants…are Catholics securing new converts to hell?
The main point is that both groups are spreading the light of Jesus Christ to the world…if the protestants are having more success…that is good for the Kingdom of Christ, if the Catholics are having more success…that is good for the Kingdom of Christ.
One should not look to another member of the body of Christ in the light of Atheism or Islam. There is not another heaven for one or the other…it is the same goal and we should support and help each other!
my 2 cents
Naomi
When we are asking this question I think that we are missing the point. Are the Protestants securing new converts to hell? The opposite question needs to be asked to the protestants…are Catholics securing new converts to hell?
The main point is that both groups are spreading the light of Jesus Christ to the world…if the protestants are having more success…that is good for the Kingdom of Christ, if the Catholics are having more success…that is good for the Kingdom of Christ.
One should not look to another member of the body of Christ in the light of Atheism or Islam. There is not another heaven for one or the other…it is the same goal and we should support and help each other!
my 2 cents
Naomi
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Seeker1961
Guest
If we are, the we’re seeing a plan that was put in place back in the 1970’s coming to fruition. Protestants who are part of the Dominionist school realized that their goal of creating a kingdom of God on earth could use some help. So, they started a concerted effort to attract Catholics-who at the same time were being so poorly catechized that they were vulnerable to whatever sounded good. People like James Dobson, the late Chuck Colson and Rick Warren as well as thousands of other Pastors in gleaming suburban mega churches all over the country are doing a fine job attracting our high school kids, our college students and our young families with all their programs and snappy services.
How do I know this? I nearly got sucked into it myself and it was the grace of God that pulled me back to the True Church.
How do I know this? I nearly got sucked into it myself and it was the grace of God that pulled me back to the True Church.
H
happy_88
Guest
I dont really think that there is a conspiracy to undermine Catholicism…this is funny, because I have been on the opposite side of the fence trying to convince Protestants that there is no Catholic conspiracy. I have been dumped on by an Adventist friend who thinks that I am out to lunch because I wont support their view that Catholics are the beast in revelation (they are not really Protestant)
I dont know much about James Dobson, but Chuck Colson is pretty good…Rick Warren is theologically out in left field
I dont know much about James Dobson, but Chuck Colson is pretty good…Rick Warren is theologically out in left field
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Seeker1961
Guest
That’s how I felt until I did a little more homework on the movement.
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adf417
Guest
I think it’s possible you dont fully understand Catholicism…
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Trebor135
Guest
What books or articles do you recommend which demonstrate the reality of such a conspiracy?
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Seeker1961
Guest
I read their own literature, the works of their most influential people and saw how heretical it was and how far from Catholic theology they have strayed. I read their books, then I read the books of the people they cited In their books. It took nearly 5 years to dig down that far.
Read Rick Warren, Chuck Colson and James Dobson, and then read the writers they recommend and they count as influential.
I also was attending a church with a friend and I noticed the subtle anti-Catholic preaching. Sure, they try and paint it pretty, but it’s there. When they found out I was Catholic they paid special attention to me, making sure I knew how welcome I was there, how many other “recovering Catholics” were members and how much closer I was going to get to Jesus than I ever had a chance to before.
It’s insidious and they’re doing a darn good job of getting Catholics that went to the “warm, fuzzy Jesus” religious education classes. Honestly, if I hadn’t had a conservative Catholic education, they probably would have got me too. It was close enough as it was!
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Marybeloved
Guest
That map is false. It lists whole countries like kenya as protestant. False, Catholics are more or ledd one to one with the protestants. Tanzania is given as orthodox, that’s just false, it is not. Its mostly catholic, protestant and muslim, not much different from kenya and uganda. I wonder who came up with this map. Also the nuns in a school thing is vefy old. Right now we have several generations of catholics and parish schools are not run by nun but by the parishes. The myth that protestants have catholics beat in africa is just that. The parishes ate not thinning like in the west but the numbers are just growing I dont know why because catholics literally dont bother with proselytization but simply go on about their own busined and suffer polemical attacks, yet Ive seen with my own two eyes the parishes growing rather fast and the numbers and even better services. All we need is proper catechesid. I cant explain the growth because weve been christian for a century, not like paganism is still a contender, but there it is. I think its because of increased eucharistic adoration everywhete which african catholics as far as I can tell, simply love, plus rosary devotions and following the liturgical life of the church at the parishes. If we can get the serious catechical instruction flowing, I think the Catholic population in our country is going to just go on growin as we wont loose those poorly catechized who fall prey to many evangelical and muslim proselytism.
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rebecca123
Guest
I mean really, “those who fall prey to the evangelicals!!!” That’s making it sound like one other poster said, that evangelicals are converting people to hell.
It’s a long shot from St. Paul’s words to the Phillipians when he spoke of some who preach Christ out of envy and strife and some out of good will," but that in every way whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is preached and in this I do rejoice and yea, will continue to rejoice."
Praise God for all the Catholics and Protestants alike who share the good news of Jesus Christ and redemption from sin to the unbelieving world.
It’s a long shot from St. Paul’s words to the Phillipians when he spoke of some who preach Christ out of envy and strife and some out of good will," but that in every way whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is preached and in this I do rejoice and yea, will continue to rejoice."
Praise God for all the Catholics and Protestants alike who share the good news of Jesus Christ and redemption from sin to the unbelieving world.
T
Trebor135
Guest
That’s a good question.
Put together, Kenya, Tanzania, and Uganda–with about a hundred million [edit: quick research shows closer to a hundred and twenty million] inhabitants in total–have under half a million Eastern Orthodox faithful.Very interesting. Send some of those Catholics to do evangelization over here in North America, OK?
Do Catholics face the same tired charges of believing that they work their way to heaven and worship saints and statues even in East Africa?
Have a lot of them fallen for that nonsense peddled by American Evangelical “missionaries”?Also, has Islam been spreading among Christian and animist groups in the region (thanks to Persian Gulf oil money, probably)?
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Marybeloved
Guest
I said falling pray to evangelical proselytism- not evangelicals. And why should I be happy that members of my church are pulled away from the church, and by nothing more than misrepresentation of their faith by those who try to convert them? Sorry that offends, but it’s preying on the ignorance of Catholics and I have no problem calling it so.
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Marybeloved
Guest
Hello, Trebor. Been a long time since I’ve “seen” you. How you doing? You are right. In Nairobi, Kenya’s Capital, there’s a sizeable Orthodox population. There’s a Coptic Church and Hospital, and many Ethiopian Orthodox Christians (mostly refugees from Ethiopia, but they are enough to be visible to the rest of the City inhabitants). There’s a Greek Orthodox Church, which is small but thriving, I’m sure there will be several parishes in a few years because people are going there. But in general, right now, Eastern Orthodoxy is almost unknown. I didn’t know about them until recently. Their Archbishop is often in Catholic functions that are performed by the top Catholics in the hierarchy. He’s white (or Arab, I don’t know)- But I suspect that the church has not been here long enough to have indigenous hierarchs, which is probably why I had never known about them until a few years ago.That’s a good question.
You know, it’s very interesting. Seriously, Catholics here would not know where to begin with that, lol! They are very very poorly catechized, just like other parts of the world. I can’t fully explain the phenomenon I’ve noticed in the past few years, but the numbers are on the rise.Very interesting. Send some of those Catholics to do evangelization over here in North America, OK?
Perhaps it’s because Our society as a whole values God and religion, so that the Church is not suffering from much of the anti-Catholic, anti-Christian secularist movements so much like in the West. Here, church and mosque are generally good things. We do have those fights like when passing law about abortion, sodomy, prostitution etc, and people will have those debates that seem to b e copy-pasted from the western conservative-liberal culture wars, but if you ask the average person, the answer will be- -No to abortion unless necessary to save mother’s life, absolutely no discussion on any idea of anything remotely like gay marriage (This, I believe, is more due to the African traditional values than religion, though Muslims and Christians will definitely oppose it if people ever muster the guts to bring it up in parliament)Unfortunately, I think that’s worse here.Do Catholics face the same tired charges of believing that they work their way to heaven and worship saints and statues even in East Africa?
I say this because I’ve suffered quite a bit of this prejudice here, but I once said it here at CAF and many Catholics strongly opposed me on it, so I thought maybe in the West, Christians have been forced by the strong secularist attacks to be better friends to each other. Here, the Orthodox are the best because those I’ve met have this assumption that they are not so different from us. In fact, many Ethiopians simply attend the Catholic mass out of convenience, not many churches of their own here. But the charges here are usually about the book of revelations and the CC and Pope being Babylon mystery religion and the anti-Christ, worship of idols and the Virgin Mary and dead people, and confessing to a mere man instead of directly to God. People say that Catholics are taught to be drunks and that celibacy is false teaching etc. Many Catholics do fall prey to these things, (some employed by Muslim apologists too) those who don’t simply cling stubbornly to their Church and their devotions- Perhaps these devotions is what keeps them here. Like I said the numbers are steadily but slowly on the rise. I used to attend the fourth mass in our church which was usually a third full, and even then scattered. I noticed that that fourth mass is now full.Islam is spreading fast! They employ the same tactics, hitting where Christians are vulnerable- lack of information, poor doctrinal understanding and the mediocre discipline enforced in Catholic churches and others. Mostly it’s this- How can these three you worship be one God?, explain it; And how can God become a man, or a man become God?- etc. Generally, making the poorly formed Christian believe that his faith is pure nonsense, madness or polytheism.
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SurlyMermaid
Guest
My family are chiefly Southern Baptist. My husband’s family are lapsed, New York Italian Catholics. Here’s my thoughts from the South:
I grew up hearing how Catholics worship Mary and aren’t Bible-based. My sister was drawn to the Church for years, having enjoyed representations of Catholicism in mass media, especially in film. She finally went to a service and “was bored to tears.” Mass didn’t “touch” her like her new Methodist church does.
The evangelists around these parts are Protestant. The Catholics around here are, generally, quiet. There is not the “God talk” you hear from Protestants.
The “Fort Gods” and the “our pastor wears jeans–and so can you!!” congregations are ubiquitous and popular. Folks get to worship enthusiatically and to music that reflects Top 40. This is a HUGE draw for people like my husband and stepson.
The Roman Catholic Church has set rules and boundaries. That is quite appealing to folks like me, but not, as I’m told, most folks. Many people would rather shape the Bible and their faith themselves.
My husband and in-laws are discouraged that, in their view, the Church is about money. They are the same generations that were poorly catechized, yes.
My teenager goes to another church for youth group. Check this out:
relevantstudents.com/
And this:
gcomchurch.com/
faithpromise.org/
Our Church parish has a LifeTeen group–of like five kids. It’s “bland” and “uninspired.” This is how my two teens see it. And this is just our parish, I know. I’m giving you my kids’ interpretations. This group is “not on fire for God” the way some Protestant youth groups are. They are not as “service-oriented.”
I tell you guys truthfully, I was thinking of going to more worship services at a local non-denom church that meets out of a school because that church is more appealing to my husband, my in-laws who are moving down, our two teens, and my almost-teen stepson.
I saw “Life on the Rock” today and the band Scythian was on, talking about Crossroads.
crossroadswalk.org/
Okay, so there are Roman Catholics that talk about the Lord and life likewise! I think we need much, much more of this. Especially around my neck of the woods!
Just some thoughts. :grouphug:
I grew up hearing how Catholics worship Mary and aren’t Bible-based. My sister was drawn to the Church for years, having enjoyed representations of Catholicism in mass media, especially in film. She finally went to a service and “was bored to tears.” Mass didn’t “touch” her like her new Methodist church does.
The evangelists around these parts are Protestant. The Catholics around here are, generally, quiet. There is not the “God talk” you hear from Protestants.
The “Fort Gods” and the “our pastor wears jeans–and so can you!!” congregations are ubiquitous and popular. Folks get to worship enthusiatically and to music that reflects Top 40. This is a HUGE draw for people like my husband and stepson.
The Roman Catholic Church has set rules and boundaries. That is quite appealing to folks like me, but not, as I’m told, most folks. Many people would rather shape the Bible and their faith themselves.
My husband and in-laws are discouraged that, in their view, the Church is about money. They are the same generations that were poorly catechized, yes.
My teenager goes to another church for youth group. Check this out:
relevantstudents.com/
And this:
gcomchurch.com/
faithpromise.org/
Our Church parish has a LifeTeen group–of like five kids. It’s “bland” and “uninspired.” This is how my two teens see it. And this is just our parish, I know. I’m giving you my kids’ interpretations. This group is “not on fire for God” the way some Protestant youth groups are. They are not as “service-oriented.”
I tell you guys truthfully, I was thinking of going to more worship services at a local non-denom church that meets out of a school because that church is more appealing to my husband, my in-laws who are moving down, our two teens, and my almost-teen stepson.
I saw “Life on the Rock” today and the band Scythian was on, talking about Crossroads.
crossroadswalk.org/
Okay, so there are Roman Catholics that talk about the Lord and life likewise! I think we need much, much more of this. Especially around my neck of the woods!
Just some thoughts. :grouphug:
K
kkollwitz
Guest
“Many people would rather shape the Bible and their faith themselves.”
Too bad Jesus disagrees with them.
“My husband and in-laws are discouraged that, in their view, the Church is about money.”
Of course to a large extent, all charitable voluntary organizations are about time, treasure, and talent. My experience is that those who give the most to the Church are the least likely to think the Church is about “money.”
“They are the same generations that were poorly catechized, yes.”
Now that they are adults, they are responsible for their own growth in faith.
Too bad Jesus disagrees with them.
“My husband and in-laws are discouraged that, in their view, the Church is about money.”
Of course to a large extent, all charitable voluntary organizations are about time, treasure, and talent. My experience is that those who give the most to the Church are the least likely to think the Church is about “money.”
“They are the same generations that were poorly catechized, yes.”
Now that they are adults, they are responsible for their own growth in faith.
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SurlyMermaid
Guest
Kkollwitz,
I agree with you. I’m stating what I hear from these folks.
I agree with you. I’m stating what I hear from these folks.
K
kkollwitz
Guest
Oh yes…I was supporting you.
- Status