Are we not preaching enough about God's wrath, vengeance, etc.?

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Forget fear. The kind of obnoxious, self-righteous arrogance carried by hellfire screamers actually makes hell itself look warm in comparison. Then they go on and say, “I am not arrogant! I am but a humble sinner! O woe is me! Lord have mercy!” If this is what a true Catholic is supposed to be, I’d rather open a portal to hell right now and overthrow Satan! :eek:
:amen:

A voice of sanity in a place where it stands out.
 
St. Therese of Lisieux said that she was drawn to God not because of fear of Him, but because of love and mercy. Others might have to be initially scared into the Kingdom. I know my initial conversion to Christ was precipitated by fear of judgment, but He also comforts me with His love.
 
People live in fear. Every day we have countless posters right here on CAF suffering from scruples. Why? Because they are driven by fear of hell. Fear of stepping on a crack and breaking our Mother’s back. Anything they do wrong, will send them to hell.

These people can’t get to confession often enough. My pastor said a lady confess because she realized that the last time she left the church her knee may not have touched the ground when she genuflected, and she did not go to Communion because of it.

This is because we control and scare people into behavior like grown up lab rats. We scare them with threats of hell and bribe them with visions of heaven they can never attain because we all fail.

Jesus came to put an end to this kind of nonsense. Using His name to spread fear is a wold in sheep clothing. Go ahead and talk of the supposed wrath of God, but not in the name of Jesus.

How many angels are mentioned in the Bible, and say “do not fear?”

Quit fear mongering. Yes, give them respect for hell. But frankly I raised my kids so that they wanted to do what I said for the good of both themselves and the family, so they may ask why or ask to opt out, but I have absolutely no reason to say, "Douglas, I want you to wash the dishes tonight because if you don’t then you are very very disobedient and you should be ashamed of yourself and you are guilty of the fourth commandment and you shall go to hell.

When I was in college my fraternity buddies and I used to watch Jimmy Swaggart with the sound off and the stereo playing rock music. We would laugh hysterically as he angrily pointed at the camera and soaked vulnerable people for money. Once we just had to know what he was saying so we picked up the needle from the (vinyl) record, turned up the sound and he was screaming LITTLE GIRL … YOU … HAVE … SINNED!!!

Educating about right and wrong is one thing. Not all children need to be threatened at every request., If they do, then there are more problems with the parent most likely, than with the children.

Same way with priests. Jesus calls us with love, not with threats of hell.

The old testament God sounds wrathful, but really He’s pretty indifferent. You get what you get, and you can’t make any judgment about it.

Besides Jesus really doesn’t seem to care as much about how we act as others see us outwardly, as what is in our heart. Nine out of ten times the hellfire preachers are preaching about external behavior such as sex, alcohol, coming late to Mass and thus disrespecting God etc.

If he doesn’t like people coming in late then say please people get here on time it really means a lot and it distracts me. Jesus invites with love.

The Good Shepherd leaves the flock, goes to wherever the sheep is, and carries it back. The wolf scares the sheep and makes them want to run away.

How clear can it get, that sure we can screech about the pains of wrong, or we can simply tell people what is right, tell them one time the consequences are dire, and get out of their face?

The peacemakers, not fear mongers, will be called children of god.

Now watch somebody will tell me that it is our duty to tell another of his sin, so that’s why we have to keep a whip right in their view. I grew up in a day when my dad would think nothing of whipping out his belt on the infrequent times he thought I should get it. My best friend had the “cat-o-nine-tails” always hanging on the door to the oven as a constant visual reminder that one false move and his drunken parents are going to hit him with it.

No thanks. Keep your fear. I will accept the peace that Christ died to give me. Your choice is yours.

MS
 
I completely disagree. Many people have lost their sense of sin and I think at priest at Mass should make it clear that people in a state of mortal sin and die in that state go immediately to Hell and will be eternally separated from God.
I also think that priests in homilies should run through the different mortal sins and tell people if they have committed such sins and have not been to Confession he does not expect them to appear before him in the Communion line expecting to receive.
I believe there is too much pussyfooting around mortal sin and Hell and that is why people just shrug it off.
This is how I feel.
 
Crowd: Jesus, this woman is caught in adultery. The law prescribes that she be put to death. What say You?

Jesus (not): Instruct her in how terrible is hell. Surely her life, her being a sinner and you all being righteous, is not nearly as valuable as yours, because surely you know that she is the only sinner here.

For a CONSTRUCTIVE way to examine sin, I highly recommend the series on the seven deadly sins, but Fr. Robert Barron. My wife and I took a course based on it and it was very informative. You don’t have to scare the daylights out of somebody to teach them.

What was really revealing is that the sins of anger and pride are much more fundamental and underlie all the other sins, and by comparison (using Dante’s model of Purgatory in the Divine Comedy whatever that is) the sins of lust are the “tip of the iceberg” in a way. The funny thing is that the most I’ve heard hell fire, it was preached by people with much pride and anger and judgment, and was against those who sin sexually or greedy or whatever. So we have a plank preaching to a splinter; blind guides.

Jesus does actually do a lot of very stern warnings against not sinners, whom He spent time with (the powerful were probably envious that He liked them better) but against those who judge them and tell them they are going to hell. That is the theme of the entire chapter of Matt 23.

How can anybody read the Bible and say that He advocates scaring the flock?

Chapter 23[a]
Denunciation of the Scribes and Pharisees. 1 Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to his disciples, 2 **saying, “The scribes and the Pharisees have taken their seat on the chair of Moses. 3 Therefore, do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you, but do not follow their example. For they preach but they do not practice. 4 They tie up heavy burdens[c] [hard to carry] and lay them on people’s shoulders, but they will not lift a finger to move them. 5 [d]All their works are performed to be seen. They widen their phylacteries and lengthen their tassels. 6 [e]They love places of honor at banquets, seats of honor in synagogues, 7 greetings in marketplaces, and the salutation ‘Rabbi.’ 8 [f]As for you, do not be called ‘Rabbi.’ You have but one teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 Call no one on earth your father; you have but one Father in heaven. 10 Do not be called ‘Master’; you have but one master, the Messiah. 11 The greatest among you must be your servant. 12 Whoever exalts himself will be humbled; but whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

13 [g]“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You lock the kingdom of heaven[h] before human beings. You do not enter yourselves, nor do you allow entrance to those trying to enter. [14 ]*

15 [j]“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You traverse sea and land to make one convert, and when that happens you make him a child of Gehenna twice as much as yourselves.

16 [k]“Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘If one swears by the temple, it means nothing, but if one swears by the gold of the temple, one is obligated.’ 17 Blind fools, which is greater, the gold, or the temple that made the gold sacred? 18 And you say, ‘If one swears by the altar, it means nothing, but if one swears by the gift on the altar, one is obligated.’ 19 You blind ones, which is greater, the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20 One who swears by the altar swears by it and all that is upon it; 21 one who swears by the temple swears by it and by him who dwells in it; 22 one who swears by heaven swears by the throne of God and by him who is seated on it.

23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You pay tithes[l] of mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier things of the law: judgment and mercy and fidelity. [But] these you should have done, without neglecting the others. 24 [m]Blind guides, who strain out the gnat and swallow the camel!

25 [n]“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You cleanse the outside of cup and dish, but inside they are full of plunder and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee, cleanse first the inside of the cup, so that the outside also may be clean.

27 [o]“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You are like whitewashed tombs, which appear beautiful on the outside, but inside are full of dead men’s bones and every kind of filth. 28 Even so, on the outside you appear righteous, but inside you are filled with hypocrisy and evildoing.

29 [p]“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees,[q] you hypocrites. You build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the memorials of the righteous, 30 and you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have joined them in shedding the prophets’ blood.’ 31 Thus you bear witness against yourselves that you are the children of those who murdered the prophets; 32 now fill up what your ancestors measured out! 33 You serpents, you brood of vipers, how can you flee from the judgment of Gehenna? 34 [r]Therefore, behold, I send to you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and pursue from town to town, 35 so that there may come upon you all the righteous blood shed upon earth, from the righteous blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. 36 Amen, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

Note He’s not talking about an adulteress. He’s talking about preachers who tell people they are going to hell. Like the type of preaching it seems this thread is advocating.

Seven Deadly Sins, Seven Lively Virtues
Robert Barron (Actor), Tom Mayor (Director) Rated: NR (Not Rated) Format: DVD
***
 
I fear God, not as in terrified, but in reverence. Instead of wrath, we need to understand and know, which we already do, that He is merciful but just. I prefer the word “just” over “angry.”:mad:🙂
 
Dante’s Divine Comedy is fiction and I don’t know that the Church today encourages reading it from anything other than it’s a classic, although the seven deadly sins are covered in it.

Unfortunately, many people took Dante’s version of purgatory and hell literally and have run with it for centuries.

Jim
I missed this before. As I just posted, I took a class at our diocese education center, based on Fr. Barron’s treatment of sins, using Dante’s model for his discussion. They had workbooks and everything.

I certainly have nothing against education. But I crave a homily about how to form ourselves inwardly over any number of rules. Jesus did not come so that we could continue to chase around trying to outdo each other with good behavior when 1 Cor 13 makes it absolutely clear that while not diminishing the value of good works, they neither prove there is love, nor mean anything without love.

To say that Jesus wants us to keep reminding His sheep of negative reinforcement, then they must not be motivated in the first place without threats. I do no come to love someone because they continue to threaten me.

You must love God, because if you don’t you will suffer eternal punishment, but you must not love Him because of that but because you want to anyway. Or you will burn in hell.

:whacky:
 
Keep in mind that we are transformed through grace from God, not from our own doing.

We strive to follow His commandments and sometimes fail. It is Jesus who lifts us back up.

However, more important than anything is to remain open to His love and to continue to return to him whenever we fail.

Those who are so focused on their unworthiness will often see others as even less worthy, and also bring a message of despair and hopelessness in their associations with others.

A book I read a couple years back by Frank McCourt, “Teacher Man,” he tells of his voyage to Ireland where he decided to go over by ship. On the way, he met an Evangelical Christian who told him about his faith in Jesus and had asked Frank about his faith. Frank told him that he was a Catholic.

Anyway, one night Frank couldn’t sleep so he went out on deck to sit. While there he saw the man standing at the rail of the ship reading his Bible and gazing to the stars in the sky over the open ocean.

Frank thought to himself, about what would happen if they were to learn that the ship was sinking. The Evangelical man would be singing Divine Praises to God, while he himself would be running around the ship looking for a priest to give him “Last Rites.” How true.

The sad part of this story is that for many Catholics, they have no hope in God’s mercy, only fear of eternal damnation. They carry this fear into their religion and it’s no wonder that so many young people today reject religion.

If you haven’t tasted the love of Jesus Christ, you will probably live fear and hopelessness, despite being Catholic in practice only.

Jim
 
We are to fear God!

Filial fear - fearing to offend a loving God
Servile fear - fearing to be punished by God

Sorrow for sin from a fear of God’s punishments is imperfect contrition.
Sorrow for sin from the love of God for Himself is perfect contrition.

The less we love God the more liable we are to have only fear of God’s punishments.
The more we love God the more we fear to offend God.

I don’t fear God just because I’m afraid of being punished.
All true fear of God is founded on the love of God Whom I fear to offend.

And Mary tells us, we’ll obtain mercy from God in the degree to which we fear God.

“And His mercy is from generation to generation on those who fear Him.”
The Magnificat of the Immaculata, Luke 1:50
 
I don’t fear God’s punishments at all. I never intend to offend God, and if I do than I trust Him to take care of the problem in a way that fits His plan, including punishing me.

Maybe I’m an “atypical Catholic” because I do not fear what happens after I die. I do all I can to live the best way I can in Christ, every day and every now. Do I fail? Yes. Do I expect correction from the Father? Yes, at least I’d welcome it. Does the Father wish for me what is no good? No, so I don’t have any fears he will treat he “unfairly” or something.

Frankly if the Father allows my soul to go to hell, the I trust that’s the best thing for it. But that’s absurd. And besides what more can I do than the best I can now. Jesus says don’t worry about tomorrow because it won’t do me any good now. Why should I worry about after I die? That’s like not trusting the Word that I should not be afraid of the future, squared.

I don’t want my kids to always be cowering around me because they are afraid I’ll hit them if they mess up.
 
I don’t fear God’s punishments at all. I never intend to offend God, and if I do than I trust Him to take care of the problem in a way that fits His plan, including punishing me.

Maybe I’m an “atypical Catholic” because I do not fear what happens after I die. I do all I can to live the best way I can in Christ, every day and every now. Do I fail? Yes. Do I expect correction from the Father? Yes, at least I’d welcome it. Does the Father wish for me what is no good? No, so I don’t have any fears he will treat he “unfairly” or something.

Frankly** if the Father allows my soul to go to hell,** the I trust that’s the best thing for it. But that’s absurd. And besides what more can I do than the best I can now. Jesus says don’t worry about tomorrow because it won’t do me any good now. Why should I worry about after I die? That’s like not trusting the Word that I should not be afraid of the future, squared.

I don’t want my kids to always be cowering around me because they are afraid I’ll hit them if they mess up.
A person chooses goes to Hell by dying in a state of mortal sin thereby having rejected God’s love.
 
A person chooses goes to Hell by dying in a state of mortal sin thereby having rejected God’s love.
If that works better literal, then that’s what I meant. 👍

But frankly I have a feeling if God set it to Himself that I was to make it to heaven, no rule in some theology book is going to stop him because “I chose not to.”

God knows my mind and heart and knows what kind of “bait” to use if He wants to catch this fish. I know because he’s good at feeding me what I like. :love:
 
If that works better literal, then that’s what I meant. 👍

But frankly I have a feeling if God set it to Himself that I was to make it to heaven, **no rule in some theology book is going to stop him because “I chose not to.”
**
God knows my mind and heart and knows what kind of “bait” to use if He wants to catch this fish. I know because he’s good at feeding me what I like. :love:
It’s not a “rule in a theology book”. It is the teaching of God.

God gave us freewill to accept or reject his love. Anyone committing a mortal sin has freely chosen to reject God’s love because you cannot commit a mortal sin by accident and anyone dying in a state of mortal sin has freely chosen to reject God’s love forever.

As to your “feeling” that you will go to Heaven, sorry to tell you that nobody knows in advance what the state of their soul will be at death.
 
It’s not a “rule in a theology book”. It is the teaching of God.
You may choose to believe that you know the limitations of God. That probably gives you a feeling of comfort that you understand His mind to the degree that you need to, in order to find a zone away from fear and confusion. This is one benefit.

But frankly if you have an image of God who can’t keep me out of hell, then you have a very different image than any I have maybe considered but luckily given up.

I’m curious where the Church infallibly teaches that God is rendered entirely helpless, in the event that He has a plan for the world and I won’t do it – such that He has no choice but to send me to hell.

That’s like the question my atheist coworker used to ask me, “since God is all powerful, can He make a boulder so large that He cannot Himself pick it up?”

Same issue. God can create humans out of spirit and dirt, and we’re saying “sorry God I messed up so nothing You can do to fix me.”

Whatever happened to “with God all things are possible” or is it “with God all things are according to the play book and you can count on that being a complete and perfect explanation.”
God gave us freewill to accept or reject his love. Anyone committing a mortal sin has freely chosen to reject God’s love because you cannot commit a mortal sin by accident and anyone dying in a state of mortal sin has freely chosen to reject God’s love forever.
As to your “feeling” that you will go to Heaven, sorry to tell you that nobody knows in advance what the state of their soul will be at death.
OK then you may live your life in fear of what may or may not happen after death. I choose instead to opt for learning the kingdom way of life that Jesus teaches, and then I don’t have to worry about after I die. If I do not “measure up” then I go to hell. Being afraid in addition to whatever I do would have not helped, so why be afraid of hell after I die? More afraid of a time missed that love could have been shown, while I am alive.

You are right that I do not know what will happen after I die. I submit for consideration that maybe neither do you, and it is presumption to think that your understanding of the teachings of the Church are in fact limiting factors on God’s omnipotence.

Judith 8
13 And now it is the Lord Almighty you are putting to the test, but you will never understand anything! 14 You cannot plumb the depths of the human heart or grasp the workings of the human mind; how then can you fathom God, who has made all these things, or discern his mind, or understand his plan?

“No, my brothers, do not anger the Lord our God. 15 For if he does not plan to come to our aid within the five days, he has it equally within his power to protect us at such time as he pleases, or to destroy us in the sight of our enemies.
 
It seems as if the mantra these days is “God loves everyone”. While that is not necessarily false, it is rather misleading. I do believe that God loves all His children; however, I also believe that God is one of vengeance, wrath, and anger as described in the Bible. The priest at my parish made a fine point that the majority of mankind sees God as a “lovable teddy bear” that just forgives people and forgets. Rather, God is also a father, and He chastises His children just like any other dad.

I don’t want to seem like one of the Westboro Baptist Church folk, but I do believe that God’s loving and forgiving side is preached more than His vengeful and angry side. Any thoughts?
While the “God is Love” is overused and degenerates in portraying God as a big Santa Claus type character, I don’t think “fear” is a motivator to follow God either. I don’t think we often really know real agape love is. Agape God love isn’t the slirpie sentimental type of gooey love and I think that is what you are reacting to. Real God love is mercy and justice together. It is self-sacrifice to the utmost which is why Jesus died on the cross, to bring us to God. Likewise, preaching some kind of “hell-fire” type fear and punishment isn’t going to bring people to God either, or in fact change their lives and yes you will end up like fundamentalists Westboro types. Real love does point out that sin has real consequences in life now and after death. Real love also points to forgiveness of sin if one turns to God in repentance. I’m not sure why you feel that preaching “fear” is going to bring people to God. There are enough threads on CAF by people all wrapped up in it. One doesn’t marry another based on fear but love. That is true in following God as well.
 
Frankly, no mortal sin, nothing more to do.

If it happens, I confess. I talk to my pastor alone for about a half hour a week outside of Mass so usually I work out any possible heretical ideas with him and he corrects me before I come believe something that an Internet poster wrote that says it’s my job to keep a constant fear. Fear beyond that which calls me to prudence is anxiety. Fear that protects me is vigilance, a non-damaging benefit of experience of past fear.

But I can’t get the mentality that says, “I’m so imperfect that I may mortally sin at any given moment.” Yeah well one thing I can control, and that’s whether I mortally sin and if I can’t control it then by definition it isn’t mortal.

So fearing hell after I die does nothing more than scares me, and prevents me from mental and emotional agility and spiritual dignity like Christ modeled for us. Lab rats perform when you shock them otherwise. Low performing children perform tasks better with candy and time outs for behavior modification. Christians are supposed to know we are made of God’s seed in the first place and all we have to do is get our ego out of the way and let it grow. Children who are brought up to respect their parents do it because they are made to do it, and with love – until it becomes a game “what am I going to get for it.” It’s like well you may not get your due now but after you die you will burn in hell. Sorry that doesn’t scare me anymore.

All a police officer has to do is say, “sir please may I have your license,” and I give it to her. She doesn’t have to say, “I want your license or I will shoot you and maybe kill you or maybe make you suffer a lot because I’m not wearing a camera or maybe I won’t do anything now but we will be watching when you are asleep and awake and just be careful you don’t die right after accidentally choosing to disrespect God with full knkowledge and intent.”
 
While the “God is Love” is overused and degenerates in portraying God as a big Santa Claus type character, I don’t think “fear” is a motivator to follow God either.
:amen:

Please allow me to offer “misused” instead of “overused,” for your example. This is distorted love. Not because Santa gives gifts unconditionally, but because he judges us. We are trying to please a human figure with human behavior ideals and are rewarded with worldly gifts and services. I suppose it can be an example in having industry; be a certain way and it will reap worldly benefits.

Jesus extends mercy. Santa puts coal in the stocking. I’m pretty sure I know which one I want to be honest with. 😉

MS
 
:amen:

Please allow me to offer “misused” instead of “overused,” for your example. This is distorted love. Not because Santa gives gifts unconditionally, but because he judges us. We are trying to please a human figure with human behavior ideals and are rewarded with worldly gifts and services. I suppose it can be an example in having industry; be a certain way and it will reap worldly benefits.

Jesus extends mercy. Santa puts coal in the stocking. I’m pretty sure I know which one I want to be honest with. 😉

MS
Yes, I think I should have used misused. I agree with you 100%.
 
Jesus extends mercy. Santa puts coal in the stocking. I’m pretty sure I know which one I want to be honest with. 😉
Normally, I would defend Santa whenever debates pit him against Jesus. But you know, I’ll make an exception in this case. 👍 I’d rather impose my own image of Christ if it means it’s the only way I can ever be honest with myself and have a conversation with anything that doesn’t try to manipulate me through guilt. Pretty sure God/Christ knows (literally) how I’ve fed up and nearly died inside from that kind of self-inflicted abuse. If this Person is so intent on loving me, they’d know better than try to put me through that again.
 
You may choose to believe that you know the limitations of God. That probably gives you a feeling of comfort that you understand His mind to the degree that you need to, in order to find a zone away from fear and confusion. This is one benefit.

But frankly if you have an image of God who can’t keep me out of hell, then you have a very different image than any I have maybe considered but luckily given up.

I’m curious where the Church infallibly teaches that God is rendered entirely helpless, in the event that He has a plan for the world and I won’t do it – such that He has no choice but to send me to hell.

That’s like the question my atheist coworker used to ask me, “since God is all powerful, can He make a boulder so large that He cannot Himself pick it up?”

Same issue. God can create humans out of spirit and dirt, and we’re saying “sorry God I messed up so nothing You can do to fix me.”

Whatever happened to “with God all things are possible” or is it “with God all things are according to the play book and you can count on that being a complete and perfect explanation.”

OK then you may live your life in fear of what may or may not happen after death. I choose instead to opt for learning the kingdom way of life that Jesus teaches, and then I don’t have to worry about after I die. If I do not “measure up” then I go to hell. Being afraid in addition to whatever I do would have not helped, so why be afraid of hell after I die? More afraid of a time missed that love could have been shown, while I am alive.

You are right that I do not know what will happen after I die. I submit for consideration that maybe neither do you, and it is presumption to think that your understanding of the teachings of the Church are in fact limiting factors on God’s omnipotence.

Judith 8
13 And now it is the Lord Almighty you are putting to the test, but you will never understand anything! 14 You cannot plumb the depths of the human heart or grasp the workings of the human mind; how then can you fathom God, who has made all these things, or discern his mind, or understand his plan?

“No, my brothers, do not anger the Lord our God. 15 For if he does not plan to come to our aid within the five days, he has it equally within his power to protect us at such time as he pleases, or to destroy us in the sight of our enemies.
Interesting rant. I don’t know where to begin. Let’s start with the paragraph ending in …no choice but to send me to Hell.

First, God does not send anyone to Hell. Anyone who goes to Hell does so by choice by dying in a state of mortal sin.

Second, it is an infallible teaching that anyone dying in a state of mortal sin goes immediately to Hell. Anyone dying in a state of mortal sin has no chance after death to negotiate with God or beg for mercy to be saved.
Church teachings have the full authority of God behind them. That means if the Church teaches something infallibly that is it. Christ said that when the Church binds on earth it is also bound in Heaven. If that does not happen then it means God is a liar which of course we know is not possible.

No I don’t know if you or I will be saved or not but we know with certainty that if we die in a state of grace we are saved and if we die in a state of mortal sin we go to Hell. This is absolutely clear. No room for doubt, opinion, speculation.

What makes you think I live in fear of what might happen after death. I don’t. I know the state of my soul at death determines my destination and nothing after death changes that.
I am trying to get over to you that priests in homilies should be preaching much more about mortal sin and the consequences of dying in a state of mortal sin because many people have lost their sense of sin and even question whether Hell is real.

Protestant thinking generally is in two groups - those who say believing in Christ is sufficient to save them no matter how they live their lives and the other is that after death God weighs the good and bad done during the person’s life and will then decide where they go. Both of these are wrong.

The fullness of truth is found only in the Catholic Church
 
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