Are we not preaching enough about God's wrath, vengeance, etc.?

[Mystical_Seeker]

Second, it is an infallible teaching that anyone dying in a state of mortal sin goes immediately to Hell. Anyone dying in a state of mortal sin has no chance after death to negotiate with God or beg for mercy to be saved.
Church teachings have the full authority of God behind them. That means if the Church teaches something infallibly that is it. Christ said that when the Church binds on earth it is also bound in Heaven. If that does not happen then it means God is a liar which of course we know is not possible.

k.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

What makes you think I live in fear of what might happen after death. I don’t. I know the state of my soul at death determines my destination and nothing after death changes that.
I am trying to get over to you that priests in homilies should be preaching much more about mortal sin and the consequences of dying in a state of mortal sin because many people have lost their sense of sin and even question whether Hell is real.

So you honestly don’t know if you might all of a sudden commit a mortal sin and die?

You really think you have no control over whether you mortally sin? And like I said if you don’t have control then the sin is not mortal.

You have direct control over whether you mortally sin. And yet you have no idea whether you will die in the state of mortal sin? Mortal sin isn’t just on “oops I did it again” Britney Spears notwithstanding. Or was that Lady Gaga?

MS

 

[thistle]

So you honestly don’t know if you might all of a sudden commit a mortal sin and die?

You really think you have no control over whether you mortally sin? And like I said if you don’t have control then the sin is not mortal.

You have direct control over whether you mortally sin. And yet you have no idea whether you will die in the state of mortal sin? Mortal sin isn’t just on “oops I did it again” Britney Spears notwithstanding. Or was that Lady Gaga?

MS

Its disconcerting that you make comments without having carefully read my posts in this thread.
I already said you cannot commit a mortal sin by accident. What is it about that you do not understand?

 

[christofirst]

I have always heard that, of all of the possible motivators for responding affirmatively to God’s love, fear is the not the best. Nevertheless, some people seem to need fear to keep them on the straight and narrow. And it seems to me, there is currently no shortage of folks eager to spread this “saving message of fear” to others. If our priests are not constantly preaching fear of God’s wrath (and I am glad they are not), plenty of other well-intentioned folks are taking up the slack.

 

[simple_soul]

Its disconcerting that you make comments without having carefully read my posts in this thread.
I already said you cannot commit a mortal sin by accident. What is it about that you do not understand?

What I am finding disconcerting and confusing is that before you made this statement Mystical. Seeker had already made it but for some reason you seemed to object to it by going on with your posts trying to seemingly hen-peck Mystical Seeker’s posts apart by making it seem like the poster was not saying this in the first place and now you are attacking them as if they are attacking you. I believe you may have miss read Mystical Seekers posts and then went into an attack mode and never really understood them from the beginning. This, I believe, has left Mystical Seeker trying to figure out what it is you are disagreeing with them about. Well if it has not left them scratching their head it has left me scratching mine.

Maybe. I miss read everyones posts but it seems to me arguments are being made when there is no argument or maybe it’s because the real argument is about something else entirely and I missed it. Will have to go back and reread everything.

 

[Shin]

‘We must know how to confide. There is the fear of God and the fear of a Judas. Too much fear makes one labour without love, and too much confidence prevents from considering the danger which we must overcome.’

St. Padre Pio

‘When the devil again tempts you to sin, telling you that God is merciful, remember that the Lord showeth mercy to them that fear Him, but not to them who despise Him.’

St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori

'No one can love God consciously in his heart unless he has first feared Him with all his heart. Through the action of fear the soul is purified and, as it were, made malleable and so it becomes awakened to the action of love. No one, however, can come to fear God completely in the way described, unless he first transcends all worldly cares; for when the intellect reaches a state of deep stillness and detachment, then the fear of God begins to trouble it, purifying it with full perception from all gross and cloddish density, and thereby bringing it to a great love for God’s goodness. . .

Fear and love are found together only in the righteous who achieve virtue through the energy of the Holy Spirit in them. For this reason Holy Scripture says in one place: “O fear the Lord, all you who are His saints,” (Ps. 34:9) and in another: “O love the Lord, all you who are His saints.” (Ps. 31:23)

From this we see clearly that the righteous, who are still in the process of being purified, are characterized both by fear and by a moderate measure of love; perfect love, on the other hand, is found only in those who have already been purified and in whom there is no longer any thought of fear, but rather a constant burning and binding of the soul to God through the energy of the Holy Spirit. As it is written, “My soul is bound to Thee: Thy right hand has upheld me.” (Ps. 63:8. LXX)’

St. Diadochos of Photiki

‘Ecclesiasticus says, that the fear of the Lord brings not pain, but joy and gladness: The fear of the Lord shall delight the heart, and shall give joy and gladness. Thus this very fear leads to the acquisition of a firm hope in God, which makes the soul happy: He that fears the Lord shall tremble at nothing, and shall not be afraid, for He is his hope. The soul of him that fears the Lord is blessed. Yes, blessed, because fear draws man away from sin. The fear of the Lord drives out sin and at the same time infuses into him a great desire of observing the commandments: Blessed is the man that fears the Lord: he shall delight exceedingly in His commandments.’

St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori

'If wounds in the body have been neglected and left unattended, they do not react to medicine when the doctors apply it to them; but if they have first been cleansed, then they respond to the action of the medicine and so are quickly healed. In the same way, if the soul is neglected and wholly covered with the leprosy of self-indulgence, it cannot experience the fear of God, however persistently it is warned of the terror and power of God’s judgment.

When, however, through great attentiveness the soul begins to be purified, it also begins to experience the fear of God as a life-giving medicine which, through the reproaches it arouses in the conscience, burns the soul in the fire of dispassion. After this the soul is gradually cleansed until it is completely purified; its love increases as its fear diminishes, until it attains perfect love, in which there is no fear but only the complete dispassion which is energized by the glory of God. So let us rejoice endlessly in our fear of God and in the love which is the fulfilling of the law of perfection in Christ (cf. Rom. 13:10).’

St. Diadochos of Photiki

‘God forewarns sinners that they will seek him in death and will not find him: You shall seek and shall not find Me. They shall not find him because they will not then seek him through love, but only through the fear of hell; they will seek God without renouncing their affection for sin, and from here they shall not find him.’

St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori

‘A person who is not detached from worldly cares can neither love God truly nor hate the devil as he should, for such cares are both a burden and a veil. His intellect cannot discern the tribunal which will judge him, neither can it foresee the verdict which will be given at his trial. For all these reasons, then, withdrawal from the world is invaluable.’

St. Diadochos of Photiki

‘The more we have experienced the patient mercies of God, the more we ought to be afraid of continuing to abuse them, lest the time of God’s vengeance overtake us. Revenge is Mine, and I will repay in due time. (Deut. 32:35) God will put an end to his forbearance towards those who will not cease to abuse it.’

St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori

‘Blessed the one who always keeps the memory of God in himself, he will be wholly like an Angel from heaven upon earth, ministering to the Lord with fear and love.’

St. Ephrem of Syria

 

[Shin]

There are some who do not realize the great good fear would do to motivate them, their love is not all they think it is and a little fear would move them to do far more than they do. There are also the very timid who are full of fears rather than embracing the great benevolence of God. There are good fears and bad fears, good hopes and bad hopes…

One has to not only consider the nature of the fear, but also its extremity or balance. Is it natural, or is it supernatural? Is it an excess prompted by a disorder or the devil? Or is it a benefit, a natural or supernatural gift?

FWLIW.

 

[christofirst]

“The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom”

The beginning of wisdom. It seems to me some people just get stuck at fear - especially a servile fear. From all I know, God is so much more than a punishing tyrant.

What moves you? Positive reinforcement or negative reinforcement? Some folks are all about the threat, but they should not be surprised that this approach moves many away from the desired result. Thankfully, our Holy Father Pope Francis does not seem to be all caught up in this constant “threat of punishment” mentality.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

Its disconcerting that you make comments without having carefully read my posts in this thread.
I already said you cannot commit a mortal sin by accident. What is it about that you do not understand?

OK then if you can’t do it by accident, is there any fear whatsoever that you will die in a state of mortal sin? I don’t think it counts if it’s done “in passion” insofar as that implies incomplete consent?

Maybe. I miss read everyones posts but it seems to me arguments are being made when there is no argument or maybe it’s because the real argument is about something else entirely and I missed it. Will have to go back and reread everything.

One of my customers used to say, “we are in violent agreement.”

Thank you simple soul for pointing that out. I am trying to parse minor shades of meaning, and it can elicit this sort of response. It doesn’t have to, and usually once people get to know me better they know that I’m trying to draw them out, and understand. Even if I disagree, understanding the other view is my desire.

I think thistle is very careful to dot every I and cross every T. But what I like about thistle is this is not in the spirit of being scrupulous, just being accurate. And consistent.

I like to pick at characters to see what they are really saying rather than my approximation based on presumed understanding of their first stating of their idea. That said, I admire thistle for sticking to the system, without becoming bitter or particularly defensive. Logical consistency is important to me, and if I hear something that doesn’t make sense, I can call it out and we can pin it down. I don’t see this as being defensive so much as wanting to be clear about what thistle is saying and is not. I feed back in a different form so that it may be sliced another way – eventually I’ll see what distinctions matter and what don’t so I have a better feel all the way around.

Some people like to hear one way of something explained; I’m not. I like hearing from all points and kind of triangulating to see what I can see through their collective eyes. But only recently have I gotten to the point where I don’t feel defensive. I do tend to poke at what seem to be persona, and that’s prolly a personal problem.

MS

 

[thistle]

OK then if you can’t do it by accident, is there any fear whatsoever that you will die in a state of mortal sin? I don’t think it counts if it’s done “in passion” insofar as that implies incomplete consent?

One of my customers used to say, “we are in violent agreement.”

Thank you simple soul for pointing that out. I am trying to parse minor shades of meaning, and it can elicit this sort of response. It doesn’t have to, and usually once people get to know me better they know that I’m trying to draw them out, and understand. Even if I disagree, understanding the other view is my desire.

I think thistle is very careful to dot every I and cross every T. But what I like about thistle is this is not in the spirit of being scrupulous, just being accurate. And consistent.

I like to pick at characters to see what they are really saying rather than my approximation based on presumed understanding of their first stating of their idea. That said, I admire thistle for sticking to the system, without becoming bitter or particularly defensive. Logical consistency is important to me, and if I hear something that doesn’t make sense, I can call it out and we can pin it down. I don’t see this as being defensive so much as wanting to be clear about what thistle is saying and is not. I feed back in a different form so that it may be sliced another way – eventually I’ll see what distinctions matter and what don’t so I have a better feel all the way around.

Some people like to hear one way of something explained; I’m not. I like hearing from all points and kind of triangulating to see what I can see through their collective eyes. But only recently have I gotten to the point where I don’t feel defensive. I do tend to poke at what seem to be persona, and that’s prolly a personal problem.

MS

Forgive me if I have misunderstood you but it’s not an “if” you can’t do it by accident. ALL mortal sins committed are deliberate.
If a person knows the Church teaches that an act is a sin of grave matter and goes ahead and commits it anyway then that is a mortal sin (whether done in passion or not). Being caught up in the heat of the moment does not downgrade consent.

 

[robwar]

There are some who do not realize the great good fear would do to motivate them, their love is not all they think it is and a little fear would move them to do far more than they do. There are also the very timid who are full of fears rather than embracing the great benevolence of God. There are good fears and bad fears, good hopes and bad hopes…

One has to not only consider the nature of the fear, but also its extremity or balance. Is it natural, or is it supernatural? Is it an excess prompted by a disorder or the devil? Or is it a benefit, a natural or supernatural gift?

FWLIW.

I think too many are focusing on fear as being out of balance but the problem which prompted this thread was an imbalance on “God is Love” and what I think bothered Op was that God was turned into a big Santa Claus type. Instead of refocusing on proper agape love instead of sloppy agape, Op thought priests need to have some fire and brimstone type homilies and put some “fear” back into people so they won’t sin. The better is to refocus on agape love not anything is ok, Santa Claus love. Bible says “perfect love casts out fear”. With most of this thread focusing on needing fear, does that really bring people to God and them stop sinning? Long term real change and commitment is usually done out of love, not fear. There is a place for “fear of the Lord” but that isn’t what brings people to God.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

Forgive me if I have misunderstood you but it’s not an “if” you can’t do it by accident. ALL mortal sins committed are deliberate.
If a person knows the Church teaches that an act is a sin of grave matter and goes ahead and commits it anyway then that is a mortal sin (whether done in passion or not). Being caught up in the heat of the moment does not downgrade consent.

So is that why people fear what will happen when they die? That they will suddenly commit a mortal sin out of passion and then die?

I say “suddenly” because I hope the time scale involving mortal sins is far greater than a typical time-to-confession period has to be, so really it’s a very low percentage of the time we are exposed to risk. We get on an airplane and don’t fear dying, but we fly around the world in these mortal bodies and fear doing something out of control?

This is what boggles my mind. It’s like saying that when I spend time with my dad there is always the chance that I will get angry and pick up an ax and swing it at him. This to me is like saying that I, as a lover of God, might perform a mortal sin.

And frankly I’m not as impressed by whether it’s “grave matter” but by our intent when we do it. I guess the Church has to draw the line somewhere, but I don’t know why really when I tend to agree with St. Teresa on this one.

I’m looking for a particular example, but meanwhile I think intent, not specific acts, are what separate us most definitively.

 

[fhansen]

So is that why people fear what will happen when they die? That they will suddenly commit a mortal sin out of passion and then die?

I say “suddenly” because I hope the time scale involving mortal sins is far greater than a typical time-to-confession period has to be, so really it’s a very low percentage of the time we are exposed to risk. We get on an airplane and don’t fear dying, but we fly around the world in these mortal bodies and fear doing something out of control?

This is what boggles my mind. It’s like saying that when I spend time with my dad there is always the chance that I will get angry and pick up an ax and swing it at him. This to me is like saying that I, as a lover of God, might perform a mortal sin.

And frankly I’m not as impressed by whether it’s “grave matter” but by our intent when we do it. I guess the Church has to draw the line somewhere, but I don’t know why really when I tend to agree with St. Teresa on this one.

I’m looking for a particular example, but meanwhile I think intent, not specific acts, are what separate us most definitively.

“Intent” is one of the criteria, if I understand you correctly, and so is a pattern, a continous life-style of sinnig in this way, not some one-time blunder. And it’s all up to God in the end, of course, Who knows the heart of man and judges by it. Mortal sin is the equivalent of direct, adamant opposition to love/God’s will.
**
1037 God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want “any to perish, but all to come to repentance”:

Father, accept this offering
from your whole family.
Grant us your peace in this life,
save us from final damnation,
and count us among those you have chosen.
**

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

“Intent” is one of the criteria, if I understand you correctly, and so is a pattern, a continous life-style of sinnig in this way, not some one-time blunder. And it’s all up to God in the end, of course, Who knows the heart of man and judges by it. Mortal sin is the equivalent of direct, adamant opposition to love/God’s will.

Yes, that is in line with what I mean.

So many Catholics express anxiety and angst over not knowing if they will go to hell. I think this could just be an emotional response we learn early and don’t let it go.

You’d think they would have lived a good life, and then right at the last minute step into a hole they didn’t see and fall down and never come back up. It leads to paranoid thoughts and behavior, including but not limited to cases of “scruples.”

And I assert that preaching about how terrible hell is, does nothing but makes this worse. I’m not a dog and even dogs arguably don’t need their mess rubbed in their face; I have no desire to soil on the carpet of my soul, and merely calling attention to it is all I need. I don’t need somebody glowering over me (even if only a phantom of angry authorities of the past) and telling me how much it’s going to hurt if I don’t repent.

Frankly, if I avoid hell only for the specific purpose of avoiding hell, then I’m not sure that’s a vital strategy – after all it’s completely selfish. If I can’t go to hell for my brother, then what kind of friend am I? Apparently not one like Jesus.

MS

 

[Sarcelle]

Clearly, a one size fits all approach is not the best way when it comes to shepherding souls. The fire and brimstone approach, e.g., Sinners in the hands of an angry God, does not work on people struggling with scruples. Some of them so beaten down, they resemble cowering dogs, tail between the legs, anticipating the whip from a cruel master.

However the truth must be told and there are real consequences to our actions and choices. How we tell that to people requires wisdom and humility.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

There is so much we don’t know on what causes a person to commit an evil act.

Sins of passion are driven by hormones, we know this and the older you get, those hormones decrease and an older person can avoid temptation easier than an 18 year old.

This is why the Church teaches that maturity plays a part in culpability.

Also, in the case of rage, they now know that people who act out in rage, often do so on impulse triggered by brain chemistry. So, when it comes to mortal sin, they would not be culpable because their action was out of control.

However, what is important here is that even when a person commits an act that is evil, once they become aware of their act, they should immediately turn to God with a sincere and contrite heart and ask for forgiveness. They should get to Confession as soon as they can, but not give into despair should death come to their door before they get there.

Prayer and trust in God is the key to overcoming our impulses, but we are humans living in mortal bodies in a fallen state.

Control over ourselves only comes as we awaken spiritually and live mindfully with Christ, in all that we do. Contemplative prayer is the path to awakening spiritually, so that you have a relationship with Jesus Christ which is holy and real.

Just following the tenets of religion alone will not work, and in fact, may cause more harm than good. This is the way of a fanatic. Suppressing human desires only causes them to become stronger and many will fall into despair or scrupulosity when they fail to resist the temptation. Becoming mindfully aware of the temptation and what it’s nature is how we grow.

Jesus told his apostles to watch and pray. This means to grow in self-knowledge and to be mindful of the thoughts and events in your life, always. It means to pray unceasingly because we are always in God’s presence and it is only though his transforming grace, that we can be brought into union with Him

Jim