Are we really that ignorant?

[Godfollower]

So if I am reading the last 9 posts right. I am not to read the Bible and make ANY interpretation of its meaning without cross referencing it with about 1000 pages of what the church has to say about it. I can not be lead at all by what I believe the Bible says,unless some authority from the church thought of it first and said it was ok to think it?

Well, no. That’s not the Church’s teaching.

If I may borrow Frodo’s line to Gandalf on learning about the One Ring, the Church has been presented with the question “What must I do?” for the last 20 centuries. Over that time, it has attempted to answer the question repeatedly, on various subjects, because that’s what the laity want to know: What must I do?

With respect to the Scriptures, the Church’s teaching is that we should read the Scriptures. As set forth in the Catechism, “The Church ‘forcefully and specifically exhorts all the Christian faithful… to learn the surpassing knowledge of Jesus Christ, by frequent reading of the divine Scriptures. Ignorance of the Scriptures is ignorance of Christ.’” Catechism para. 133.

But people have asked whether they can simply interpret the Scriptures for themselves. The Church has answered that question by pointing out that the Scriptures themselves say that they cannot be interpreted by themselves; a teaching authority is needed to understand them. This is not an issue of the Church asserting a new role for itself; this is something clearly taught from the very beginning (Acts 8:30-31: “And Philip running thither, heard him reading the prophet Isaias. And he said: Thinkest thou that thou understandest what thou readest? Who said: And how can I, unless some man shew me?”; and, as Peter taught, “Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation. For prophecy came not by the will of man at any time: but the holy men of God spoke, inspired by the Holy Ghost” (2 Peter 1:20-21).

So, the next question is, now that I’ve read the Scriptures, what do I do if I’m still uncertain about how to handle the situation in question (or if I think I know the right answer but people I respect are questioning or challenging that judgment)? The Catholic response is, see what the Church teaches. Odds are the issue has come up before, and there’s nothing wrong with asking what learned theologians have said in the past.

It’s the same process Protestant churches follow: read the Scriptures, then bring your questions to a learned teacher (a pastor or whatever). It’s just that the Catholic Church has 2,000 years of writing down answers to the same questions over and over again, then organizing them. So there’s a book that answers a lot of questions (the Catechism). There are Bible commentaries that address interpretation of the Bible.

But no one says you aren’t allowed to think for yourself; in fact, quite the contrary. According to Catholic teaching, you are required to reason out everything for yourself. But God put the Church on this planet for a reason, and you’re expected to take into account what it teaches – if for no other reason than the fact that it’s been working on this thing for a while and has a great deal of experience in the area.

 

[Godfollower]

Sorry to disappoint you but I am not a troll.

But to me that is exactly what the church does is say you can only believe this this and this. You can only walk like this, stand like this, sing like this, talk like this, have sex like this and by God you better not enjoy it. For if you have sex for the pure pleasure that a couple can enjoy we are damned to hell for ever. They give no room for any independent thought on anything. It is all spelled out for you how to act and think a certain way.

Well, perhaps it would help to think of it this way: The Church is charged with teaching the Truth about God. The Church, believe it or not, does not say “You must believe X.” But it does teach X because that is what it understands to be the truth. Jesus is wholly God and wholly human; the Church cannot teach otherwise. You do not have to believe that, but (if you choose not to believe it) the Church will say that you are mistaken. That’s not so much a dictatorial stance as a matter-of-fact statement about the nature of God; and it’s no different than a mathematics department saying “If you want to believe in math, then pi = 3.14159265358979323846264338327950288419716939937510…” You don’t have to believe that, but they feel entitled to tell you you’re mistaken if you insist that it’s something else.

Now, please recognize that the “Them’s the facts” parts of Catholic theology are a lot fewer than some people would like to believe. There are some people who would get upset if you wore a red tie to Mass during Lent or Advent; but that’s got nothing to do with the faith. And there are some people in the Catholic Church who come on too strong with their personal interpretations of Catholic theology. For instance, keep talking about enjoyment of sex within marriage and, sooner or later, someone will tell you you’re going to Hell for enjoying sex. That’s simply incorrect. Catholic teaching is that you should enjoy sex within holy matrimony. The ones telling you that you can’t have sex with your wife just for the sake of having sex with her are simply mistaken.

That doesn’t necessarily diminish the tone and volume of their opinion. And that can mislead someone like you, who are trying to understand the Church’s actual teaching. And that’s a shame, because it tends to drive off the genuine questioners who simply want to understand.

I for one hope you will keep asking questions, and I pray that God will help you find the answers you’re seeking.

 

[adrift]

So if I am reading the last 9 posts right. I am not to read the Bible and make ANY interpretation of its meaning without cross referencing it with about 1000 pages of what the church has to say about it. I can not be lead at all by what I believe the Bible says,unless some authority from the church thought of it first and said it was ok to think it?

I reread the last 9 post one of which was mine. I would say that you are not reading them right. I believe you read into them what you decided in the first place. What was being said in each one of them was your OP ascertion is that the Church thinks Catholics are so stupid that they can’t read the Bible. That is what each post disputed.
You are very angry. I wonder why? Are you in an illicit relationship or maybe your child? Or is there another sin that you are angry about? It doesn’t seem that you are interested in finding out that you have no idea about the Catholic faith and you don’t want to be confused with the facts.
In order to understand the bible, you can’t just pick it up and read a passage apart from the rest of Scripture and the culture, you must do a lot of studying. That includes the meaning of words and the original languages. If you look at scripture, Jesus didn’t say to His apostles right everything down and pass it on. He said go out and preach. He gave the keys to heaven to bind and loose. Those powers were given to the Apostles. Not to a book. Scripture is our Tradition. Scripture says that you need others to interpret. Acts 8:30

 

[Brendan_McCabe]

So if I am reading the last 9 posts right. I am not to read the Bible and make ANY interpretation of its meaning without cross referencing it with about 1000 pages of what the church has to say about it. I can not be lead at all by what I believe the Bible says,unless some authority from the church thought of it first and said it was ok to think it?

You can but you would probably be wrong as the Bible makes clear:

“Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation.” 2Pet 1:20

“As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction. You therefore, brethren, knowing these things before, take heed, lest being led aside by the error of the unwise, you fall from your own steadfastness.” 2Pet 3:16-17

 

[MrsNoahMoerbeek]

Are Catholics really that ignorant and stupid that we can not and should not read the Bible. I was told that once by a parish priest. That we as lay people do not have the ability to read and understand the Bible and that it is best left to those more learned and of more authority in the church. Are we devoid of any common sense that we can not read, and with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, glean some knowledge without someone else telling us EXACTLY what we need to think and do? Didn’t realize I, along with all the other Catholics, were just so stupid.

Considering the number of Protestant denominations there are, is that really so hard to believe? (LOL)

Seriously though, I’m sure he only meant that it’s easy to fall into error and so, when studying the Scriptures, we need to always consult the interpretation of the Church in certain matters, as some things are not subject to differing interpretation. If you’ve read commentary from some (many) Catholics, it’s not surprising that the priest would discourage it. A lot of people leave the Church because of “the Bible” (or more accurately, an incorrect interpretation of the Bible).

 

[guanophore]

Are Catholics really that ignorant and stupid that we can not and should not read the Bible. I was told that once by a parish priest. That we as lay people do not have the ability to read and understand the Bible and that it is best left to those more learned and of more authority in the church. Are we devoid of any common sense that we can not read, and with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, glean some knowledge without someone else telling us EXACTLY what we need to think and do? Didn’t realize I, along with all the other Catholics, were just so stupid.

There certainly was a time when this was true. The vast majority of the laity in the middle ages were illiterate. Even as education became more available to the common people, it only included basic skills. It is difficult for us to appreciate the difficulties since all we have ever known is readily accessible free public education and all kinds of literature, public libraries, etc.

The more critical problem is that the vast majority of Catholics do not take the time and effort to learn about their faith, so when they do read the scripture, they can misunderstand the contents, and are easily led astray by our separated brethren.

This happened to me. I was not brought up reading scripture, and did not even have a bible. My grandmother gave me a King James bible for my first communion but I never learned to read it. When I did finally start reading it while attending a Southern Baptist Bible Study it was not difficult for them to convince me that the CC was the whore of babylon, etc, etc.

It took me a few decades to study and pray my way back into the Church, and I still find that most Catholics are ignorant of their faith.

 

[guanophore]

The only ‘ignorant and stupid thing’ would be for a person to take the words (hearsay at that) of ‘one parish priest’, not bother to check out what the Church actually does teach (fairly plentifully available teachings both on the web at everything from the Vatican to the USCCB with lots of on-line catechisms including ‘old’ ones), and then harrangue people with that mistaken teaching and thus perpetrate error upon error. . . and, upon becoming aware that one had indeed made that mistake, NOT apologize, learn, and then gracefully and humbly come back on the forums to give the same people one had harrangued the ‘correct’ teaching.

:stretcher:

 

[Brendan_McCabe]

It took me a few decades to study and pray my way back into the Church, and I still find that most Catholics are ignorant of their faith.

That is not a result of them been banned from reading the bible, it is a wider problem of parents not first making the effort to learn the faith themselves and then not teaching it to their children.

 

[LIT56RD]

The Church dates back 2,000 years and is tasked with preserving Sacred Scripture and the Sacred Tradition of the Apostles and the Early Church.

Your concept of married sex in the Catholic Church is well, simply not accurate.

The Catechism’s chapter on the Sacrament of Marriage:

scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c3a7.htm#1638

I don’t mean to dispute your beliefs or that of what you believe the church to say. I have only been on these boards about a month. Over that brief time I have have seen people say that it is a grave moral matter to have sex just for the pleasure of having sex. It must be this great mystical event with all the I’s dotted and the T’s crossed and you better not do it wrong or else you will go to hell.

Maybe I am just very sensitive to being told what I can or can’t do, especially with my wife in my marriage bed. (or where ever else we might be)

Thanks
LIT

 

[valentino]

To say to a Catholic he can have sex but can’t enjoy it is like saying you can eat food but you can’t enjoy it.

 

[guanophore]

So if I am reading the last 9 posts right. I am not to read the Bible and make ANY interpretation of its meaning without cross referencing it with about 1000 pages of what the church has to say about it

If your heart is so hardened against His revelation that you would NOT want to read it in the light of what He has already revealed to us, then it probably will not make an appreciable difference.

Besides, the last time I looked at the Catechism, it was referenced by topic, and did not include even 1000 pages of text.

I can not be lead at all by what I believe the  Bible says,unless some authority from the church thought of it first and said it was ok to think it?:shrug:

If you wish to read the bible inappriately, of course you can do so. People do it every day.

There is a long history of people taking the sacred gifts of God an misusing them. He has created you with the freedom to do this, so it is your choice.

I think the fact that thousands of ecclesial communities have been created, all based upon their various and diametrically opposed understanding of the contents is sufficient evidence that not only CAN you read the Bible and be led to believe whatever you want, but that it is commonplace to do so.

 

[onenow1]

Sorry to disappoint you but I am not a troll.

But to me that is exactly what the church does is say you can only believe this this and this. You can only walk like this, stand like this, sing like this, talk like this, have sex like this and by God you better not enjoy it. For if you have sex for the pure pleasure that a couple can enjoy we are damned to hell for ever. They give no room for any independent thought on anything. It is all spelled out for you how to act and think a certain way.

Hi, Lit,

Jesus Christ is the Head of the one true Church and it behoves us to follow, His commands given to the Apostles.!

Matt. 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.”

Read more: ewtn.com/ewtn/bible/search_bible.asp#ixzz1M06G5Htd

Lit, when a conflict arises in your understanding of scripture, and Jesus’s teaching of it through the Catholic Church he founded. Listen to the Church He founded! After all He says this in the above passages of Matthew.

Matthew 16: 18.

God Bless

 

[Ignatius]

Are Catholics really that ignorant and stupid that we can not and should not read the Bible. I was told that once by a parish priest. That we as lay people do not have the ability to read and understand the Bible and that it is best left to those more learned and of more authority in the church.

Sorry, but I don’t believe you.

 

[LIT56RD]

The more critical problem is that the vast majority of Catholics do not take the time and effort to learn about their faith, so when they do read the scripture, they can misunderstand the contents, and are easily led astray by our separated brethren.

This happened to me. I was not brought up reading scripture, and did not even have a bible. My grandmother gave me a King James bible for my first communion but I never learned to read it. When I did finally start reading it while attending a Southern Baptist Bible Study it was not difficult for them to convince me that the CC was the whore of babylon, etc, etc.

It took me a few decades to study and pray my way back into the Church, and I still find that most Catholics are ignorant of their faith.

I am probably the most ignorant of the catholic faith. I take some responsibility for that but I also expect the church to shoulder some of the responsibility for it. Yes I know it was years ago but I was taught not to read the Bible. And I was also taught that you were to never question the church teaching or a priest. Both have the authority to send you to hell on a moments notice. Yes I am much older now but over all these years I have never been informed or brought to my attention that these things were not really what the church was teaching.

My wife and I have spent the last 3 1/2 years attending a local Protestant church. In my entire life I have never felt as close to God as I have while be part of that church. If I miss church services they always say that they are glad to see us and welcome us back. If we missed Mass at the local church for a couple of weeks we were usually asked. “Where the h*ll have you been. It’s about time you came back to church”. Real welcoming

By my reading the Bible I feel that I have made a connection with God that I have never been able to in the past. So when I hear that I can not have any of my own belief in the the Bible says, that tells me that the connection that I have made with God over the last 3 years was against all of the CC teaching. It is by my own interpretation of the Bible verses that have helped me grow much closer to God.

FHG
LIT

 

[guanophore]

Maybe I am just very sensitive to being told what I can or can’t do, especially with my wife in my marriage bed. (or where ever else we might be)

Thanks
LIT

Yes, ever since the Fall mankind has had problems with authority. It is part of our fallen nature. It can be overcome, though, by the grace of God, and every cell of our being can be held captive by His Love.

He is our creator, and as such, He knows what is best for us, including our sex life. If we use His gifts outside of the plan He has for our lives, we will suffer consequences, some temporal, some eternal, and some both. The boundaries He places around us are for our welfare and our protection.

 

[guanophore]

I am probably the most ignorant of the catholic faith. I take some responsibility for that but I also expect the church to shoulder some of the responsibility for it.

How did you expect this “shouldering” to take place? I mean, most of those persons responsible for your poor catechesis are probably dead by now - at least, that is the case with mine. Expecting someone to accept the blame for their wrongdoing might put you in a long wait.

Besides, hanging on to resentments is like drinking poison, and expecting the other person to die. Jesus calls upon us to forgive those who trespass against us, and commands that, unless we do so, our heavenly father won’t forgive us. So, for your own spiriitual well being, I advise that you forgive those who failed to catechize you, and told you lies, or otherwise misled you in matters of faith. That way, you can just start with a clean slate, and make the most of today, without getting hung up about what went wrong in the past.

Yes I know it was years ago but I was taught not to read the Bible.  And I was also taught that you were to never question the church teaching or a priest.  Both have the authority to send you to hell on a moments notice.   Yes I am much older now but over all these years I have never been informed or brought to my attention that these things were not really what the church was teaching.

You can continue to be angry that you were lied to, or you can forgive those who have trespassed against you, and move on.

My wife and I have spent the last 3 1/2 years attending a local Protestant church. In my entire life I have never felt as close to God as I have while be part of that church. If I miss church services they always say that they are glad to see us and welcome us back. If we missed Mass at the local church for a couple of weeks we were usually asked. “Where the h*ll have you been. It’s about time you came back to church”. Real welcoming

Indeed, Catholics have a lot to learn from the separated brethren with regard to hospitality and evangelism. How do you know God is not calling you to reform your parish?

By my reading the Bible I feel that I have made a connection with God that I have never been able to in the past.

This is awesome! It is great the the grace conferred to you through the sacraments, and the Holy Word of God (a thoroughly Catholic book) are bringing new life into your soul.

So when I hear that I can not have any of my own belief in the the Bible says, that tells me that the connection that I have made with God over the last 3 years was against all of the CC teaching.

I would be curious to know where you heard that.

I am also curious why, if someone told you this, why it would carry more weight in your mind than all the links and information posted for you on this thread, which says the opposite.

It has been noted that you seem to have your mind set on believing lies.

It is by my own interpretation of the Bible verses that have helped me grow much closer to God.

So, what is the problem?

Why are you trying to create a problem where one does not exist?

 

[Daizies]

My wife and I have spent the last 3 1/2 years attending a local Protestant church. In my entire life I have never felt as close to God as I have while be part of that church. If I miss church services they always say that they are glad to see us and welcome us back. If we missed Mass at the local church for a couple of weeks we were usually asked. “Where the h*ll have you been. It’s about time you came back to church”. Real welcoming

By my reading the Bible I feel that I have made a connection with God that I have never been able to in the past. So when I hear that I can not have any of my own belief in the the Bible says, that tells me that the connection that I have made with God over the last 3 years was against all of the CC teaching. It is by my own interpretation of the Bible verses that have helped me grow much closer to God.

FHG
LIT

I’m sorry to hear that you’ve had such poor treatment from people within the Church. I can partially understand where you are coming from, but from a reverse perspective. As a Protestant, I felt mistreated, hurt and alone most of the time. When I was searching Catholicism, I finally made a connection with God, and felt welcome at church as i had never felt before.
I guess what I’m trying to say is that none of us are perfect. There are bad Catholic Churches just as there are bad Protestant Churches. And it’s hard to get past those hurts, and I know that it is hard not to feel very bitter about the things that have happened.
Now, I’m no expert on Catholic theology, but I don’t think that all that you have learned in your Protestant church is a total waste. Learning to read the Bible, Pray, and have a relationship with God is never a waste. Perhaps someday in the future you may find a more welcoming parish than your local Church currently is, and you will find your way back to the Catholic Church. But that is up to God, and to you.
The last thing to remember is that every denomination has its own rules, and its own methods of interpreting the Bible. You may have not landed in one of the stricter ones, but I’ve gone to Churches where their rules make the Catholics look like raging liberals
God Bless, and I hope you find the answers you are looking for.

 

[LIT56RD]

How did you expect this “shouldering” to take place? I mean, most of those persons responsible for your poor catechesis are probably dead by now - at least, that is the case with mine. Expecting someone to accept the blame for their wrongdoing might put you in a long wait. I guess what I am asking for is that someone maybe even the pope would acknowledge that things have been screwed up in the past and that the church is NOT this absolute perfect institution that they pretend to be.

Indeed, Catholics have a lot to learn from the separated brethren with regard to hospitality and evangelism. How do you know God is not calling you to reform your parish? The last priest I made a suggestion to about being more friendly and open made a comment that is what the “other churches do to get people to go there, we have the truth on our side that’s all that matters.”

This is awesome! It is great the the grace conferred to you through the sacraments, and the Holy Word of God (a thoroughly Catholic book) are bringing new life into your soul.

I would be curious to know where you heard that. It has been said many times on this forum that you are not allowed to interpret the Bible on your own you have to have a tutor to make sure you do it right,

I am also curious why, if someone told you this, why it would carry more weight in your mind than all the links and information posted for you on this thread, which says the opposite. See above statement.

It has been noted that you seem to have your mind set on believing lies. I have my mind set on what I understand is the truth through my own thinking and logic which the church feels is not acceptable to think on your own.

So, what is the problem? It has been said on this forum that you are not to read and interpret the Bible on your own.

Why are you trying to create a problem where one does not exist?

 

[PattiDay]

A great benefit of belonging to this group at CAF is the number of really interesting and indepth theological and apologetics discussion here. Perhaps you’re on the wrong forum. You could be plumbing new depths of knowledge and understanding in one of those forums, rather than allowing the poor cathecesis you’ve suffered in your past cause you to speak with bitterness and anger. Why don’t you get out there and put your learning and personal understanding of Scripture to the test, see if it holds up, maybe even teach someone something.

I don’t know what size church you attend. At my small church we pretty much know who is and isn’t there on a Sunday because their seat is empty. Our parishoners aren’t unkind or condescending toward someone who wasn’t present the previous week. That would be most uncharitable.

If you don’t feel that you can accept the authority of the Catholic Church it might be better for you to remain where you are in your Protestant church and keep studying until you have a change of heart. It certainly would be hippocritical to join the Catholic church whose primacy and authority you don’t recognize. God bless.

 

[guanophore]

I guess what I am asking for is that someone maybe even the pope would acknowledge that things have been screwed up in the past and that the church is NOT this absolute perfect institution that they pretend to be.

As you are catching up with your faith, you will find that the popes have done this quite a bit. There have been apologies and reparations for a number of acts that have caused scandal, and the faithful to fall away from the faith.

However, I think you may be suffering from a deficient understanding of the Church. The Church is the Holy Bride of Christ, who has as her soul the Holy Spirit. The reason she is perfect is because of her divine elements, not her human.

The human members attached to her, however, are prone to sin,and imperfection. While the persons in your life failed to teach you properly, this is not the fault of the Church. Her teachings are perfect, even if the people in charge of disseminating them are not.

And you must look at WHY you want the “Church” to admit they did wrong. What do you hope to gain?

The last priest I made a suggestion to about being more friendly and open made a comment that is what the "other churches do to get people to go there, we have the truth on our side that's all that matters."

But we both know that is not right, don’t we? Having the fullness of Truth doesn’t help people if you cannot share it with them. Besides, love demands that we practice hospitality.

 It has been said many times on this forum that you are not allowed to interpret the Bible on your own you have to have a tutor to make sure you do it right,

I have never read that here from a Catholic, and I have been here for a long time. I have heard this lie forwarded by anti-Catholics, but it is not true, so it usually gets a strong reply. I urge you to go back and read the references offered to you about Catholics and bible reading. Let go of your resentment, and receive the Truth.

If you do find somewhere on the forum you think a Catholic has said this, please let me know! I will direct them here, to read the links in this thread, which show they are wrong.

See above statement.

You are not making any sense. I asked you why a lie would carry more weight for you than the Truth, and your answer is that you have heard lies more often, so you choose to believe them instead of the TRuth? It seems a strange reason to cling to a lie.

I have my mind set on what I understand is the truth through my own thinking and logic which the church feels is not acceptable to think on your own.

My good man, you are being fed lies about the Catholic faith. I am sorry that this happened to you when you were younger, and I am glad you are now finally doing the Catholic thing, which is to read and pray your Scripture.

I strongly urge you to stop spreading the lies you are given. Bearing false witness is a violation of the commandment of God.

If you are up to the challenge, then follow the links provided to you above, and see if you can find any Catholic source that says “it is not acceptable to think on your own.” Good luck.

It has been said on this forum that you are not to read and interpret the Bible on your own.

Can you produce any evidence of this claim? A thread title? A post number? A quote from anyone?

Even if such a false claim were made, it would be improper for anyone to keep spreading it, so why are you doing so?

Forsake lies, and embrace the Truth, which is found in the Catholic Church.