Are we Saved by “Faith Alone” or “Faith and Good Works”?

[Jimmy_B]

Faith and good works. One has to work to be a true disciple. It’s not enough to simply say, “I have faith.” Those are words. God wants words AND deeds.

 

[SIA]

Are we Saved by “Faith Alone” or “Faith and Good Works”?

Simply put; “good works” means, doing those things that are pleasing to God.

What Christian is apposed to doing those things that are pleasing to God?

So, what is the opposite of “good works”?

The opposite of “good works” would be, doing those things that are not pleasing to God or failing to do what is pleasing to God.
_____________________________

If you believe that we are not judged by our “good works”, then please answer these 5 questions:

**1. **If “good works”, physical acts (doing those things that are pleasing to God) are not necessary for our Salvation, Then why do “Born Again” Christians recite the “Born Again” prayer? Isn’t reciting the “sinners” prayer, a physical act or an act of “good works”? Isn’t this act performed prior to one receiving “God’s grace”?

Reciting the “Born Again” prayer would definitely be, “good works”.

2. If “good works” (doing those things that are pleasing to God) are not necessary for our Salvation, then why do we baptize and why are we Baptized? Isn’t Baptism a physical act or an act of “good works”?

The act of Baptism is definitely an act of “good works”.

3. If “good works” (doing those things that are pleasing to God) are not necessary for our Salvation, then why do non-Catholic, Christians even bother with funeral ceremonies? Why do Christian Pastors read or recite prayers at funerals? Isn’t a funeral ceremony a physical act or an act of “good works”?

Funeral ceremonies are definitely an act of “good works”.

4. If “good works” (doing those things that are pleasing to God) are not necessary for our Salvation, then why do non-Catholic, Christians even bother with “wedding ceremonies” (Holy Matrimony), isn’t a wedding ceremony an act of “good works”?

Wedding ceremonies are definitely an act of “good works”.

5. If “good works” (doing those things which are pleasing to God) are not necessary for our Salvation, because our Salvation is “guaranteed”, then why is it necessary for us to pray, read the Bible, go to Church on the Sabbath, avoid sin, forgive, love and asked to be forgiven?

Aren’t all these, all acts of “good works””?
_____________________________

Please let me know if you disagree with my comments, thank you.

We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. It’s very simple, just read Scripture and forget all of the ideas and thoughts of men. Faith without works is dead. Now we have an idea of what faith in Christ is, but it is our faith that saves us, nothing we could ever do for ourselves could ever save us or make us righteous. If it could, we would never have needed Jesus and his perfect sacrifice.

 

[KingAlfred]

We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. It’s very simple, just read Scripture and forget all of the ideas and thoughts of men. Faith without works is dead. Now we have an idea of what faith in Christ is, but it is our faith that saves us, nothing we could ever do for ourselves could ever save us or make us righteous. If it could, we would never have needed Jesus and his perfect sacrifice.

But it still isn’t as simple as you suggest. For example, does your position equate to OSAS (‘once saved, always saved’)? Here’s a scenario I’d like you to consider, in light of your belief in salvation by faith and possibly even OSAS:

When and if the OSAS Christian starts misbehaving, and is called onto the ‘carpet’ for his recent sins, he’ll undoubtedly claim that he’s still saved, because God has *‘acquitted’ *him of all sin, past, present and future.

Meanwhile, the Catholic Christian, when and if he misbehaves and is called onto the carpet for it, will probably confess he’s simply been a derelect, and hasn’t worked hard enough to remain faithful to his calling as a disciple.

Which argument makes better, basic sense? I say the latter. This business of one’s claiming to be forgiven for all future sins is simply irrational. Nope…we have to work at being good Christians. It takes *self-discipline. *

 

[TriuneUnity]

Which argument makes better, basic sense? I say the latter. This business of one’s claiming to be forgiven for all future sins is simply irrational. Nope…we have to work at being good Christians. It takes *self-discipline. *

On a scale of 1 to 10, how are you doing on keeping the Law?

 

[Ronald_E]

On a scale of 1 to 10, how are you doing on keeping the Law?

What law are you talking about? Man’s law or God’s Law?

 

[SIA]

But it still isn’t as simple as you suggest. For example, does your position equate to OSAS (‘once saved, always saved’)? Here’s a scenario I’d like you to consider, in light of your belief in salvation by faith and possibly even OSAS:

When and if the OSAS Christian starts misbehaving, and is called onto the ‘carpet’ for his recent sins, he’ll undoubtedly claim that he’s still saved, because God has *‘acquitted’ *him of all sin, past, present and future.

Meanwhile, the Catholic Christian, when and if he misbehaves and is called onto the carpet for it, will probably confess he’s simply been a derelect, and hasn’t worked hard enough to remain faithful to his calling as a disciple.

Which argument makes better, basic sense? I say the latter. This business of one’s claiming to be forgiven for all future sins is simply irrational. Nope…we have to work at being good Christians. It takes *self-discipline. *

You are counting on a man oriented rationale. Why? Who says that the salvation formula isn’t simple? Jesus came for the sick, not the well. That’s Scripture my friend. That’s the truth.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

**The bible does not “say” that we are saved by “faith alone”, this belief is anti-biblical. The bible “says” among other things, that we must also follow God’s instructions and obey His Commandments. **

Jas 2:17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
Jas 2:24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
Jas 2:22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
Rom 2:6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:
2:7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
2:8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness-indignation and wrath,
2:9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;
2:10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
2:11 For there is no partiality with God.
Phil 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
2 Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.
Rom 2:13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.
Matt 25:31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
25:32 "All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
25:33 "And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
25:34 "Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
25:35 'for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in;
25:36 ‘I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’
25:37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink?
25:38 'When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You?
25:39 ‘Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’
25:40 "And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’

Note: **The only way that one can refute these verses, which support Catholicism, is to claim that there exists a conflict in the Bible or that there exists Bible verses which conflict with one another. There exists no such conflict in the Bible. The Bible is the “Word of God” and God is not in conflict with Himself. The harmony of Bible can only be known, appreciated and understood in context. The Bible and Christianity, cannot nor should not be summed-up by a ‘handful of verses”. If this were the case, the Bible would contain, only a ‘handful of verses”. **** **

Nice post, Jimmy B. Well-researched and right on. Too many non-Catholics look at “works” in the scriptures and assume Paul’s context to be “good works” like feeding the poor or donating money to a shelter, or being honest, or rescuing a puppy from a tree LOL… The problem is, Paul’s context and the original Greek reveal “Torah” as the operative term for works. “Works of Torah,” in other words, works from the Mosaic Law. Paul’s context revolves around following temple laws, getting circumcised, rules about washing oneself before prayer, straining gnats, etc. Paul’s context for “works” is not what a person living in 2008 would consider “good works.” The Mosaic Law was not focused really on “good” works but rather the health, organization, and good order of His Chosen People, Israel, until the Savior would come and deliver God to us all. “Works of Torah” indeed do not apply to the free Christian Catholics that we are. We believe that we are justified by Christ and Christ alone, given that wonderful FREE grace as a GIFT. But it is like a fine pearl in the palm of our hands that we can treasure or throw-away. Paul is clearly talking about the Mosaic Law and how it condemns us all because no one can live up to it. But we are to take our freely-given grace, fight the good fight, and “perservere” for the Lord.

 

[RobHom]

You are counting on a man oriented rationale. Why? Who says that the salvation formula isn’t simple? Jesus came for the sick, not the well. That’s Scripture my friend. That’s the truth.

Forgive my pointedness in this reply…but you come across as a "worshiper of the WORD OF PAUL and completely discard the very words of Christ Himself.

How many times did Christ Himself admonish or command us to do good works? How many times did He instruct us what to do in and with our lives?

He did not merely “suggest it would be like totally kewl…if we like maybe got our groove on and maybe tossed the hungry a bone, or tossed a rag at the naked, or dropped a cardboard box on a homeless person”…

No, that’s not how it was…not in the least!! The Catholic belief is not built on a “man-made rationale”…its built solely on Christ’s very own words. Take a few minutes and go to this link and read it, then if you can…attempt to dispute Christ’s words:

secondexodus.com/html/catholicdefinitions/corporalworksofmercy.htm

Then if you feel up to it…suppose you interpret this passage of scripture:

Mt 25:34 “Then the King will say to those at his right hand, ’Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ Then the righteous will answer him, ’Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink?’ And the king will answer them, ’Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of my brethren, you did it to me.’”

These are the 7 Corporal Works of Mercy:

The seven practices of charity toward our neighbor, based on Christ’s prophecy of the Last Judgment, that will determine each person’s final destiny:

1. Feed the hungry
2. Give drink to the thirsty
3. Clothe the naked
4. Shelter the homeless
5. Visit the sick
6. Visit those in prison
7. Bury the dead

These are the 7 Spiritual Works of Mercy:

The seven practices of Catholic charity toward our neighbor’s soul:

» Convert the sinner

» Instruct the ignorant

» Counsel the doubtful

» Comfort the sorrowful

» Bear wrongs patiently

» Forgive injuries

» Pray for the living and the dead

These are based on the teaching of Christ and on Church practice since apostolic times.

Do you place more faith and credibility in a questionable interpretation of ONE line of scripture than all of what Christ Himself said to us???

(Personally…I think it would be safer to play football in quicksand or a mine field… )

khutcheson said:

Catholics now simplify and parody the Protestant belief in faith alone by contending or implying (falsely) that Protestants deny the obligation to do good works.

I beg to differ. it is not simplification or parody. It is a reality. It is a truth. Pure and simple. Your further statement below validates mine…your “is far from what most Protestants believe”.

This is far from what most Protestants believe (indeed, I have NEVER heard any Protestant take this position). Instead, we believe that we can never DESERVE salvation, that it is an unmerited work of grace, a gift of God.

Then I would respectfully submit that the possibility exists that you have lived in a very limited community of all like-minded people. I have been exposed to many different people of many different faiths, and I can assure you that very many Protestants do in fact take that very position…that “works are totally unnecessary”…and many even take the position that “once saved is in fact always saved” REGARDLESS.

Go to this link and read this then tell me that “Protestants” don’t believe in OSAS… Maybe not all…but many do: av1611.org/etern.html and here: allaboutgod.com/once-saved-always-saved.htm
and here: religioustolerance.org/chr_sava.htm

What I do find interesting is that John Wesley…as well as the Amish…have something in common with “Catholics”

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

There is a lot of misunderstanding out there of what Catholics believe about this subject. I think there are several reasons for this. For one thing, the Church’s teaching on this often isn’t taught clearly even to Catholics. For whatever reason, it isn’t a subject that is emphasized from Catholic pulpits as much as it is in Protestant churches—it’s pretty much taken for granted by Catholic teachers that the average Catholic doesn’t need to know the subject that much in depth.

As a Catholic involved in apologetics and teaching Adult Religious Education, I can see the fruits of this mistaken attitude in that many Catholics cannot articulate the Church’s teaching on salvation. Many, in fact, end up leaving the Church convinced that the Church teaches a form of crass works-righteousness or a semi-Pelagianism. This isn’t helped by the fact that some of the non-Catholic “churches” they end up in have an equally distorted view of what Catholics believe and thus their erroneous misconceptions are reinforced. I was listening to a local Christian radio show recently in which a man was giving his testimony, saying he used to be a Catholic “but was now a Christian” and was happy he now didn’t have to worry about being “good enough” and “didn’t have to work his way to heaven.” He mentioned a lot of other things he said the Church taught that clearly pointed to the fact he was, if nothing else, a victim of poor catechesis.

On another level, I think it is possible to show that Catholics and Protestants don’t differ on this topic as much as people think they do. In the centuries since the Reformation, however, the terminology and teaching emphasis has become so particular to each group, that, essentially, we are talking about the same thing but in different words! This is bound to be confusing in any conversation between Catholics and Protestants on this (or any other) subject, but in recent years there have been attempts by various persons and groups to try to iron out the language barriers, without smoothing over or ignoring real differences. I have two real good book recommendations: The first is by a Catholic, Jimmy Akin, and it is called The Salvation Controversy. The other is by an Evangelical Protestant named Mark Noll and is called **Is The Reformation Over? **Both of these books make the same point: that Catholics and Protestants have more in common than they think they do.

I think it’s also possible to make the argument that the original Reformers were not so much reacting against Church teaching on salvation, as they were against the poor catechesis and abuses of their particular time and place. If you look at what the Church really taught about salvation at that time (and not just the abuses) it was essentially what the Church has always taught before then, and what it teaches now. From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

Basically, the Church’s teaching is this: **We are saved by grace alone, through faith. **The Catholic understanding of faith includes both placing our trust in Christ AND obeying him—what St. Paul calls the “obedience of faith” (Romans 1:5 and 16:26). The Church teaches that everything having to do with our salvation is God’s grace. Even our original conversion is God’s initiative and an entirely unmerited gift of his grace—we cannot even take the first step without him. It is indeed 100% God’s work, but, respecting our free will, he allows us to cooperate in our own salvation through faith and charity.

I’ll speak about it more in depth later, but basically the place of works as they relate to our salvation is as (1) a response to God’s grace (obedience) and (2) as a means to grow in holiness (sanctification). God sends us the grace (and the opportunity) to perform a good work. By being responsive to God’s grace, we please him because of our obedience, and we grow in holiness. The holier we become, the less likely we are to fall into sin. Failure to respond to God’s grace is disobedience and a failure to grow in holiness. If we continually refuse to respond to God’s graces, we run the risk of falling into serious sin. And, as you know, the Church teaches that if one dies in serious, unrepented sin, he or she cannot be admitted to heaven. It is important to remember that good works that are not done in faith and by God’s grace—on human power— do not avail anything. You do not get into heaven just by “being good.”

Continued…

Outstanding post, Fidelis!! Well-stated. So many folks think Catholics don’t care about God’s grace and that we’re earning our own Brownie Points until we finally ‘earn’ heaven with Jesus as an afterthought. Your post correctly outlines reality.

 

[SIA]

Forgive my pointedness in this reply…but you come across as a "worshiper of the WORD OF PAUL and completely discard the very words of Christ Himself.

How many times did Christ Himself admonish or command us to do good works? How many times did He instruct us what to do in and with our lives?

He did not merely “suggest it would be like totally kewl…if we like maybe got our groove on and maybe tossed the hungry a bone, or tossed a rag at the naked, or dropped a cardboard box on a homeless person”…

No, that’s not how it was…not in the least!! The Catholic belief is not built on a “man-made rationale”…its built solely on Christ’s very own words. Take a few minutes and go to this link and read it, then if you can…attempt to dispute Christ’s words:

secondexodus.com/html/catholicdefinitions/corporalworksofmercy.htm

Then if you feel up to it…suppose you interpret this passage of scripture:

Mt 25:34 “Then the King will say to those at his right hand, ’Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ Then the righteous will answer him, ’Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink?’ And the king will answer them, ’Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of my brethren, you did it to me.’”

These are the 7 Corporal Works of Mercy:

The seven practices of charity toward our neighbor, based on Christ’s prophecy of the Last Judgment, that will determine each person’s final destiny:

1. Feed the hungry
2. Give drink to the thirsty
3. Clothe the naked
4. Shelter the homeless
5. Visit the sick
6. Visit those in prison
7. Bury the dead

These are the 7 Spiritual Works of Mercy:

The seven practices of Catholic charity toward our neighbor’s soul:

» Convert the sinner

» Instruct the ignorant

» Counsel the doubtful

» Comfort the sorrowful

» Bear wrongs patiently

» Forgive injuries

» Pray for the living and the dead

These are based on the teaching of Christ and on Church practice since apostolic times.

Do you place more faith and credibility in a questionable interpretation of ONE line of scripture than all of what Christ Himself said to us???

(Personally…I think it would be safer to play football in quicksand or a mine field… )

You truly don’t get it do you? You are quick to reject Paul even tough he is regarded to have spoken the Word of God. Jesus spoke of many good works but never in a salvation formula. this is what happens when you won’t accept Scripture as your authority to equip you for every good work. James says faith without works is dead. Your faith is dead because it is all sustained within an institution and not in Jesus Christ and his sacrifice for us. I will pray for you. I was where you are at one time.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Sometimes it’s necessary to fire for effect.

There are a lot more Catholic verses where that came from.

After all, the Bible is a Catholic book

http://www.dominionpaper.ca/files/dominion-img/afghanistan-big-guns.preview.jpg

Doing my best to defend my Catholic faith

Cover me! I’m reloading.

I’m going to have to turn you in, Jimmy, under the Patriot Act, you are carrying Catholic WMD! LOL

 

[Jimmy_B]

We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. It’s very simple, just read Scripture and forget all of the ideas and thoughts of men. Faith without works is dead. Now we have an idea of what faith in Christ is, but it is our faith that saves us, nothing we could ever do for ourselves could ever save us or make us righteous. If it could, we would never have needed Jesus and his perfect sacrifice.

Hello SIA,

How would you know about any of this; if “men"… Catholic “men’, did not pass this information down to you? Were you around two thousand years ago? Alternatively, how would you know about any of this if you were not around a thousand years ago, or five hundred years ago? Aren’t you just repeating what “Protestant men’ were saying five hundred years ago?

One cannot connect the “Christian dots”, with connecting the “Catholic dots".

Why won’t you give the Catholic Church any credit? Why is the Catholic Church, called the “Early Christian Church” by Protestants, when I fact, it was / is, the Catholic Church?

Believe it, or not, your beliefs are not that far off, from Catholic beliefs, there were merely those, from early Protestant history… who played semantical games… just like Protestants today, play semantical games…; a re-invention of Christianity…take some Catholic, “tweak” it a little… and make it Protestant.

Here is a quote from the Catechism of the Catholic Church -

CCC
[

](http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm)1999[

](http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm)The grace of Christ is the gratuitous gift that God makes to us of his own life, infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the *sanctifying *or deifying grace received in Baptism. It is in us the source of the work of sanctification:

Therefore if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself.

Peace

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Can you prove that the Early Christian Church was indeed the RCC of today? I’ll bet that Orthodox Christians would have more to say about this than even Protestants do.

SIA,

Jimmy gave you many questions to think about and they all involve the “Roman Catholic Church.” I happen to agree with him, but let’s just look at things from a non-Roman angle, just “Catholic” for a second…

The early church had BISHOPS, that is painfully obvious from reading Ignatius of Antioch, Clement, Polycarp, Irenaus, and company…
The early church believed in the Eucharist as the true presence of Christ, His flesh and blood. This is also evident in the Fathers’ writings. The Didache, an ancient, early church manual for worship discusses the Eucharist as a “sacrifice” and a real presence.
The early councils decided WHO and WHAT Jesus was as a true God-man…
The early church was sacramental and liturgical.
The early church was pro-life; this is in numerous writings where the earliest saints wrote against abortion and infanticide
The early church deferred much to the Bishop of Rome and he was, at the least, the “primus inter pares,” first among equals.

Now, which church does this sound like? It doesn’t sound protestant…

Let’s just take the sacred heart, rosary, adoration, scapulars, and all the other things aside that developed through the Middle Ages, and look at what I mentioned…the Catholic Church is the only Church along with the Orthodox and Oriental Churches that continue the concepts mentioned. The other devotions and apparitions as well as developments are the Church become clear and justified as Christ continues to reveal Himself to his faithful in the context of His Church… Makes sense.

 

[Pax]

You truly don’t get it do you? You are quick to reject Paul even tough he is regarded to have spoken the Word of God. Jesus spoke of many good works but never in a salvation formula. this is what happens when you won’t accept Scripture as your authority to equip you for every good work. James says faith without works is dead. Your faith is dead because it is all sustained within an institution and not in Jesus Christ and his sacrifice for us. I will pray for you. I was where you are at one time.

Jesus spoke of salvation over and over. No one speaks of hell and the condemnation associated with it more than Jesus. Likewise, Paul taught the gospel of Jesus. Nothing trumps the words of Jesus, and no misinterpretation of Paul will ever trump the words of Jesus. Any interpretation of Paul that is not perfectly congruent with the words of Jesus is simply an error.

Those that argue salvation by faith alone make an egregious error in their understanding of Paul.

Works done in the system of the OT law and works done in the gentile systems of belief are of no value. They are based on the individual and the individual’s own achievement and are to be understood in terms of a wage.

Works done in the Christian system of grace are of value. These works come from God’s work of grace within us. We are as Eph 2:10 says, “created in Christ Jesus for good works which God prepared beforehand.” In grace we are adopted sons and daughters and are members of the household.

The difference between the Christian system of grace and that of the old law as well as that of the gentile systems is one of “relationship.” In the old law and gentile systems the works are of no value because the relationship is that of man as a wage earner before God. There is no relationship of God as Father. Under grace we cry “Abba” Father. Under the system of grace everything is by way of mercy and God’s gifts. Under grace our works have value because they are from the Father and they give glory and honor to God.

As Christians we are under the law of Christ. As Christians we are led by the Spirit. As Christians we live by the Spirit. The Christian system of faith and works is completely different from the OT system of the law and the gentile systems of works. Paul clearly states that these latter two systems do not justify or save us. Paul never discounts the role of works within the Christian system of grace. Instead, Paul clearly states the necessity of Christian love and obedience under grace.

 

[RobHom]

You truly don’t get it do you?

Oh yes, I do get it quite well.

You are quick to reject Paul even tough he is regarded to have spoken the Word of God.

No I don’t “reject” Paul…but neither do I place all of my eggs in one basket, as it seems many do, as justification for their “beliefs” and completely ignoring Christ’s own words… which in my humble opinion “trump all others”!!

Jesus spoke of many good works but never in a salvation formula.

He didn’t? Gee, I guess that little ditty about there was but one way to the Father but through Him…was just “prattle”?

this is what happens when you won’t accept Scripture as your authority to equip you for every good work.

No, …the difference betwixt thee and me…is that I accept all of the Scriptures, in total, without reservation, and I do not rely on any one Scripture “snippet” independently for any justification. Its all or none… You cannot accept only those snippets of Scripture that meet or fulfill your desires or agendas.

I guess to you and your kind…the very words of God (Christ) as written in the Bible are not “SCRIPTURAL” and are just little more than meandering musings…interjected merely for entertainment?

James says faith without works is dead.

James was very much right then, and he still is today.

Your faith is dead

That statement is entirely wrong and without merit. You just willfully violated Christ’s very admonition against “judging others”. You have borne false witness. Further, you have absolutely no grounds to ascertain what is in my heart or to assess my beliefs.

because it is all sustained within an institution and not in Jesus Christ and his sacrifice for us. I will pray for you. I was where you are at one time.

Again, you are in error. I am tempted to suggest that you have been influenced by evil…and are attempting to do the work of evil. Pray not for me, but for yourself. I don’t believe you were ever where I was at any time, nor were you ever where I am now.

I am more than aware of what Christ did for man. I am also quite well aware of what Christ expects me to do…afterall, he made it quite clear, and repeatedly so.

I wish you peace, and that you will find your way to the truth, and the whole TRUTH.

 

[Jimmy_B]

Take something Catholic and “tweak” it a little… and make it Protestant….

*All Protestantism is…is an exercise in semantics. *

*Every non-Catholic Christian belief today (except for heretical beliefs), are just Catholic beliefs, with a “Protestant twist”. *

One cannot connect the “Christian dots” without connecting the “Catholic dots”!!!

 

[ChristianRoots]

You truly don’t get it do you? You are quick to reject Paul even tough he is regarded to have spoken the Word of God. Jesus spoke of many good works but never in a salvation formula.

??? The words of Jesus are SALVATION! Jesus is God. He spoke God’s words BEFORE Paul did. What Paul says AFERWARDS ***must ***be reconciled with Jesus’ words in the Gospels, not the other way around! As a matter of fact, everything written in the New Testament must be reconciled with the words and actions of Jesus in the Gospels. Do you agree or disagree?

You are doing the exact opposite to suit for own theology. You have distorted the context of Paul’s words by placing them above, or at the very least, separate from the words of Jesus in the Gospels. By saying that Jesus did not speak in a salvation formula, you have inadvertently diminished the Word of God.

this is what happens when you won’t accept Scripture as your authority to equip you for every good work.

 

[khutcheson]

khutcheson said:

*Catholics now simplify and parody the Protestant belief in faith alone by contending or implying (falsely) that Protestants deny the obligation to do good works. *

Rob Horn replied
INDENT]I beg to differ. it is not simplification or parody. It is a reality. It is a truth. Pure and simple. Your further statement below validates mine…your “is far from what most Protestants believe”.[/INDENT]

It’s not the truth that I have experienced (moreover, it’s not the truth I described in my post) and it strikes me as silly to have you telling me what us Protestants believe.

khutcheson:
*This is far from what most Protestants believe (indeed, I have NEVER heard any Protestant take this position). Instead, we believe that we can never DESERVE salvation, that it is an unmerited work of grace, a gift of God. *

RobHom
Then I would respectfully submit that the possibility exists that you have lived in a very limited community of all like-minded people.

Actually, I don’t live that in that limited a community (but I note your assumption that your experience trumps mine). Since you mention it, I was sitting in an RCIA class last Tuesday night and the Priest described salvation as an unmerited work of grace, something that we couldn’t earn or deserve. I remember sitting there thinking that there was nothing he was saying that I couldn’t agree with 100%.

 

[khutcheson]

Take something Catholic and “tweak” it a little… and make it Protestant….

*All Protestantism is…is an exercise in semantics. *

*Every non-Catholic Christian belief today (except for heretical beliefs), are just Catholic beliefs, with a “Protestant twist”. *

One cannot connect the “Christian dots” without connecting the “Catholic dots”!!!

Your post ignore the possiblity that Protestants come to their beliefs without reference to Catholic dogma, but instead based solely on the Bible.

Your post assumes that we define ourselves by our opposition to, or differences from Catholicism.

In truth, Catholicism and Catholic teachings are not even on the radar of most.Protestants.

I’m curious, what do you think you accomplish by attacking Protestants like this?

 

[Jimmy_B]

Your post ignore the possiblity that Protestants come to their beliefs without reference to Catholic dogma, but instead based solely on the Bible.

khutcheson:
Your post assumes that we define ourselves by our opposition to, or differences from Catholicism.

In truth, Catholicism and Catholic teachings are not even on the radar of most.Protestants.

I’m curious, what do you think you accomplish by attacking Protestants like this?Hello khutcheson,

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Thank you for your post, I have put your quotes in blue

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Your quote -

“Your post ignore the possiblity that Protestants come to their beliefs without reference to Catholic dogma, but instead based solely on the Bible.”
**

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My response -

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· All Protestant Christian “dogma” or beliefs are nothing more than Catholic beliefs; changed slightly to suite the needs of men…Protestant men.

· The Creed preceded the completed formation of the Bible.

· The books of Bible were collected and preserved…By the Catholic Church!

· The books of Bible were organized…By the Catholic Church!

· The books of Bible were translated…By the Catholic Church!

· Some books and verses of the Bible were rejected…By the Catholic Church!

· Other books and verses of the Bible were accepted and approved…By the Roman Catholic Church and by Roman Catholic Popes!

· The books of the Bible were written and re-written (by Catholic scribes) and passed down, within the Catholic Church!

All of this occurred, hundreds of years before there was such a thing as a “Protestant” and before the advent of the printing press, in the middle of the 1500"s.

The Bible is a Catholic book and it is ridicules to use a Catholic Book to try to disprove Catholicism.

**

Your quote -

Your post assumes that we define ourselves by our opposition to, or differences from Catholicism.
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My response -

Christian denominations… after Catholicism are all different because they all have a different rule-set and they all have different beliefs, however major or slight. For example, there are reasons why some Protestants are Methodist as apposed to Lutheran, as apposed to Baptist… and so on… and so on.

The “opposition” or conflict can be found in the rejection of Christian truths, which are actually, rejections of the “Early Christian Church”, which is the Catholic Church. There exists “dogma” in the Catholic Church today, which was found in the Catholic Church (the Early Christian Church) from the very beginning (100 century A.D.). As stated earlier here, the Creed, for example, preceded the completed Bible.

First came Christ, then His Church, then the Creed…and then the Bible. Then, several hundreds of years, after all this….came Protestants who have attempted to re-write Christian history and re-invent Christianity; “God on their terms”, all the while, not giving any credit, what so ever to the Roman Catholic Church, as if the Bible… dropped from the sky and into the hands of Protestants, 1500 hundred years after Christ, so that Protestants could disprove aspects of Catholicism…

Does this really make any sense to you?

**One cannot connect the “Christian dots” without connecting the” Catholic dots"! **

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Your quote -

***In truth, Catholicism and Catholic teachings are not even on the radar of most.Protestants. ***

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My response -

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If a Christian is married, baptized, or they believe that Christ was true man and true God; believe in the Holy Trinity and on and on (not enough room here) sufficed to say, we actually have much more in common by way of our beliefs then we have differences, then, Catholicism, or at least Catholic beliefs, whether they know it or not…is “on their radar”!

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Your quote -

I’m curious, what do you think you accomplish by attacking Protestants like this?
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My response -

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How is posting Christian truths here, “attacking” anyone? Those who reject Christ and reject what Christ actually taught, are the ones, who, whether they know it or not, are “attacking” Christianity…

I do not “attack” here, I defend; I defend Christ, his teachings and His One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church!

A conscious rejection of any aspect of Christianity is a rejection of Christ Himself.

Protestants need to and try to, show conflict in the Bible, were one Bible verse supposedly conflicts with another, in order to make that verse, which is actually a Catholic verse, into a Protestant verse. .

There is no conflict in the Bible when understood in context.

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Protestantism itself is - “conflict” and has conflict within it. In order for a Protestant to hold a non-Catholic belief, based on a Bible verse, they most show conflict, because that belief is a conflict, a conflict with a Christian truth.

The Bible is a Catholic Book and everything in it, in one way or another supports Catholicism.

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Why in the world, would the Roman Catholic Church approve a book, the Bible, if it disproved Catholicism? They wouldn’t and they didn’t.

God bless you!

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I hope that this helps.

Peace.