Are we to avoid worldly pleasures to better please God?

[JimR-OCDS]

Can we love God with all our soul, heart, mind and strength while indulging in worldly pleasure? And with such a strong love for God, are not we also to mortify the self and all its worldly affections?

I’m interested to know how you interpret this love for God. Is the love static or active? I believe it must be as active as possible, and continually as possible. We cannot at the same time worship God and indulge in these false pleasures.

We love God with our soul and heart by seeing God in all things and everyone.

We’re not talking about indulging in illicit disorders of the world.

Enjoying a cool drink of water on a hot day is not indulging in a disordered worldly pleasure.

Enjoying the view of a beautiful sunset is not indulging in a disordered worldly pleasure.

Even enjoying the site of a beautiful woman as a person created by God, is not a disordered worldly pleasure.

Lusting for her is.

As long as you’re not engaging in immorality as defined by the Church, you’re not indulging in disordered worldly pleasures.

Jim

 

[MtnDwellar]

Subjugating one’s lower appetites is virtuous for many reasons.
If a person sacrifices the pleasures of comfort, tasty food, or a car with a lot of horsepower, he is following the path of many saints.
As a person advances in his spiritual life, the desire for material things and comfort diminish. He naturally lives a more virtuous life. It’s a sign that he is on the path to sanctity.

 

[Robert_Sock]

We love God with our soul and heart by seeing God in all things and everyone.

We’re not talking about indulging in illicit disorders of the world.

Enjoying a cool drink of water on a hot day is not indulging in a disordered worldly pleasure.

Enjoying the view of a beautiful sunset is not indulging in a disordered worldly pleasure.

Even enjoying the site of a beautiful woman as a person created by God, is not a disordered worldly pleasure.

Lusting for her is.

As long as you’re not engaging in immorality as defined by the Church, you’re not indulging in disordered worldly pleasures.

Jim

I fully agree that the things you mention are not sinful, but still we are to deny the “self,” and ideally, worldly pleasures as much as possible. Drinking a glass of cold water on a hot day is bound to result in relief of thirst, but this is taking things to the extreme. All of the saints, I believe, distanced themselves from worldly pleasures as much as possible.

(Are beautiful women somehow better than those unattractive? Looking at beautiful women for pleasure is lust of the eyes, and is to be avoided as much as possible.)

 

[joecap]

Well, I can say one thing for sure…if eating was not pleasurable, then we probably wouldn’t eat. Think about how much work it is to eat…biting, chewing, etc. If all food tasted like rocks and sawdust, people would starve to death, or at the very least, NOBODY would be obese. Most likely we would just eat the bare minimum to keep alive, nobody would be very healthy.

 

[Bookcat]

I fully agree that the things you mention are not sinful, but still we are to deny … ideally, worldly pleasures as much as possible.

Huh?

No that is not the Churches teaching.

 

[Bookcat]

All of the saints, I believe, distanced themselves from worldly pleasures as much as possible.

Such would be an incorrect belief.

(taking worldly there to mean good things not disordered sinful things)

 

[Bookcat]

Looking at beautiful women WHO IS NOT YOUR WIFE for SEXUAL pleasure is lust of the eyes, and is to be avoided)

One must add those words.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Huh?

No that is not the Churches teaching.

No, it’s not a church teaching, and not sinful, but we should be going the extra mile to better love God. I emphasized that it was an ideal that all the saints, for the most part, achieved.

 

[Robert_Sock]

One must add those words.

The lust of the senses is taught in the monasteries as something to be avoided. Correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t St John of the Cross warn against the lust of the senses? Is this not the dark night of the senses?

 

[Bookcat]

The lust

Catechism:

2351* Lust* is disordered desire for or inordinate enjoyment of sexual pleasure. Sexual pleasure is morally disordered when sought for itself, isolated from its procreative and unitive purposes.

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a6.htm#2351

One was speaking in terms of lust and looking at women in order to lust. Such is referring to seeking or consenting to sexual pleasure.

 

[Bookcat]

No, it’s not a church teaching, and not sinful, but we should be going the extra mile to better love God. I emphasized that it was an ideal that all the saints, for the most part, achieved.

We go the extra miles down the road the Church points to us to…we must take care not to fall of the path by following any misunderstandings of our own. Many good intention souls go off the path. Especially with more intense forms of asceticism -it is important to have good direction from a superior or spiritual director.

Even the most strict Order the Carthusians notes in their Statutes that:

“No one is to indulge in penitential practices over and above those prescribed by the Statutes without the knowledge and approval of the Prior”

 

[Robert_Sock]

Catechism:

2351* Lust* is disordered desire for or inordinate enjoyment of sexual pleasure. Sexual pleasure is morally disordered when sought for itself, isolated from its procreative and unitive purposes.

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a6.htm#2351

One was speaking in terms of lust and looking at women in order to lust. Such is referring to seeking or consenting to sexual pleasure.

15Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world. 17The world is passing away, and also its lusts; but the one who does the will of God lives forever.
1 John 2:

 

[Bookcat]

15Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world. 17The world is passing away, and also its lusts; but the one who does the will of God lives forever.
1 John 2:

Of course.

All to be understood as the Church understands it.

 

[Bookcat]

We go the extra miles down the road the Church points to us to…we must take care not to fall of the path by following any misunderstandings of our own. Many good intention souls go off the path. Especially with more intense forms of asceticism -it is important to have good direction from a superior or spiritual director.

Even the most strict Order the Carthusians notes in their Statutes that:

“No one is to indulge in penitential practices over and above those prescribed by the Statutes without the knowledge and approval of the Prior”

 

[nuntym]

+JMJ+

Can you please provide a reference for that statement?

As for inordinate (note that word, “inordinate”) avoidance of pleasures being sin as of itself is found all around Catholic literature but I think it is most explicit in St Thomas Aquinas’ Summa Theologica:

On the contrary, The Philosopher (Ethic. ii, 7; iv, 8) reckons the lack of mirth to be a vice.

I answer that, In human affairs whatever is against reason is a sin. Now it is against reason for a man to be burdensome to others, by offering no pleasure to others, and by hindering their enjoyment. Wherefore Seneca [Martin of Braga, Formula Vitae Honestae: cap. De Continentia] says (De Quat. Virt., cap. De Continentia): “Let your conduct be guided by wisdom so that no one will think you rude, or despise you as a cad.” Now a man who is without mirth, not only is lacking in playful speech, but is also burdensome to others, since he is deaf to the moderate mirth of others. Consequently they are vicious, and are said to be boorish or rude, as the Philosopher states (Ethic. iv, 8).

newadvent.org/summa/3168.htm#article4

As for it being a heresy, condemning any non spiritual pleasure as wrong is clearly a flavor of Gnosticism:

“Matter is evil!” was the cry of the Gnostics. This idea was borrowed from certain Greek philosophers. It stood against Catholic teaching, not only because it contradicts Genesis 1:31 (“And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good”) and other scriptures, but because it denies the Incarnation.

catholic.com/tracts/the-great-heresies

Also, such a view is quite clear to be wrong if you realize that one chief pleasure, sex, is an indispensable part of a Holy Sacrament of the Church, The Sacrament of Holy Matrimony.

 

[Robert_Sock]

+JMJ+

As for inordinate (note that word, “inordinate”) avoidance of pleasures being sin as of itself is found all around Catholic literature but I think it is most explicit in St Thomas Aquinas’ Summa Theologica:

On the contrary, The Philosopher (Ethic. ii, 7; iv, 8) reckons the lack of mirth to be a vice.

I answer that, In human affairs whatever is against reason is a sin. Now it is against reason for a man to be burdensome to others, by offering no pleasure to others, and by hindering their enjoyment. Wherefore Seneca [Martin of Braga, Formula Vitae Honestae: cap. De Continentia] says (De Quat. Virt., cap. De Continentia): “Let your conduct be guided by wisdom so that no one will think you rude, or despise you as a cad.” Now a man who is without mirth, not only is lacking in playful speech, but is also burdensome to others, since he is deaf to the moderate mirth of others. Consequently they are vicious, and are said to be boorish or rude, as the Philosopher states (Ethic. iv, 8).

newadvent.org/summa/3168.htm#article4

As for it being a heresy, condemning any non spiritual pleasure as wrong is clearly a flavor of Gnosticism:

“Matter is evil!” was the cry of the Gnostics. This idea was borrowed from certain Greek philosophers. It stood against Catholic teaching, not only because it contradicts Genesis 1:31 (“And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good”) and other scriptures, but because it denies the Incarnation.

catholic.com/tracts/the-great-heresies

Also, such a view is quite clear to be wrong if you realize that one chief pleasure, sex, is an indispensable part of a Holy Sacrament of the Church, The Sacrament of Holy Matrimony.

I’m not saying that all worldly pleasures are “wrong.” (You may want to go back to my first post and refresh your memory.)

Can you name a single saint who was shameless in their seeking worldly pleasures? Most every saint denied themselves of all worldly pleasures!

 

[nuntym]

+JMJ+

I’m not saying that all worldly pleasures are “wrong.” (You may want to go back to my first post and refresh your memory.

You did say something to that effect, but then you contradicted yourself:

It’s OK to buy and drive an expensive car, I think, but is undesirable to feel any pleasure from it. The same with food; eat that you may gain the strength to better serve God, and not to gain pleasure from it.

So which is which?

 

[Robert_Sock]

+JMJ+

You did say something to that effect, but then you contradicted yourself:

So which is which?

I’m not saying that it is morally wrong anywhere. All I’m trying to get across is that different people are on different paths, and it’s not for everybody; but it is spiritually desirable nonetheless.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

The lust of the senses is taught in the monasteries as something to be avoided. Correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t St John of the Cross warn against the lust of the senses? Is this not the dark night of the senses?

St John of the Cross called them, “appetites.” He further explained that these were disordered appetites, not desires and appreciation for the gifts God gives us.

Jim

 

[Robert_Sock]

St John of the Cross called them, “appetites.” He further explained that these were disordered appetites, not desires and appreciation for the gifts God gives us.

Jim

Let modest love prompt you to lift up your heart to God. Seek only God. Think of nothing else other than God. Keep your mind free of other thoughts. Give no attention to the things of this world.
-The Cloud of Unknowing