Are we too easy on suicide victims?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Ben_Sinner
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
B

Ben_Sinner

Guest
I might get heat for this, but I am concerned that people blow off the gravity of those who commit suicide too easy by saying: "well, they were pretty psychologically distressed, so they won’t go to hell for it."

I understand this as a way to keep hope and console those who have had a loved one commit this act…but I think you are creating another problem with this line of thinking.

Here are my reasons:

While is a source of hope for those who have passed away, it can be a source of anxiety for those still living. I know this from experience

I suffer from anxiety, occasional depression, and nearly every form of OCD there is; including harm OCD.

I occasion get intrusive thoughts in my head such as: “Kill yourself Ben!” Do it!" "Whats the point in living? Do it! Kill yourself!, “You are a bad person! Kill yourself!”, You are unworthy of forgiveness, Kill yourself!..You don’t deserve to be happy! Kill yourself!

While these are just intrusive thoughts I wouldn’t follow through with, they can appear VERY real though to the point where it does feel like I am suicidal! This is something I wouldn’t wish on anybody.

Usually I can just brush them off as OCD, but when I get the REALLY strong thoughts…I have to use a different coping mechanism.

It is this: Now Ben, if you actually do this. You will go to hell for eternity because its a mortal sin! Don’t do it! You will be even worse off then you are now and you will feel absolutely no consolation by being in hell!

That thought alone alot of times immediately takes my anxiety away from those fears.

…but when I see Catholics saying things like: "well, they were pretty psychologically distressed, so they won’t go to hell for it."

…new thoughts begin to creep in…

I will then start having thoughts like : "Did you hear that Ben! You are psychologially distressed! Go ahead and kill yourself now! You will be fine! You will avoid hell! There is a chance you won’t now!

These thoughts can be terrifying, and this is from somebody who doesn’t seriously entertain these thoughts. I can’t imagine how someone who actually suffers from suicidal thoughts thinks when they see comments like that!

Basically what I’m trying to say is we have to be careful what we say about suicide because there are alot of stressed out people who can read and hear these things.

-If you have full knowledge that suicide is a mortal sin (no matter how distressed you are)
-If you deliberately consent to it (no matter how stressed you are)
-You will go to hell (if you remain unrepentant about it at the moment of death)

I wish more people would say this. While it sounds mean and might cause grief to those who have had loved ones who killed themself. We also have to keep new people from committing suicide as well because they can use the “distressed” card.

-Judas suffered one of the most distressing moments in human history when he became depressed and mortified for betraying Jesus…he ended up killing himself.

Judas is seen by tradition to be a long-shot for Heaven after he did this.
 
Ben_Sinner said:
I might get heat for this, but I am concerned that people blow off the gravity of those who commit suicide too easy by saying: "well, they were pretty psychologically distressed, so they won’t go to hell for it."

I understand this as a way to keep hope and console those who have had a loved one commit this act…but I think you are creating another problem with this line of thinking.

Here are my reasons:

While is a source of hope for those who have passed away, it can be a source of anxiety for those still living. I know this from experience

I suffer from anxiety, occasional depression, and nearly every form of OCD there is; including harm OCD.

I occasion get intrusive thoughts in my head such as: “Kill yourself Ben!” Do it!" "Whats the point in living? Do it! Kill yourself!, “You are a bad person! Kill yourself!”, You are unworthy of forgiveness, Kill yourself!..You don’t deserve to be happy! Kill yourself!

While these are just intrusive thoughts I wouldn’t follow through with, they can appear VERY real though to the point where it does feel like I am suicidal! This is something I wouldn’t wish on anybody.

Usually I can just brush them off as OCD, but when I get the REALLY strong thoughts…I have to use a different coping mechanism.

It is this: Now Ben, if you actually do this. You will go to hell for eternity because its a mortal sin! Don’t do it! You will be even worse off then you are now and you will feel absolutely no consolation by being in hell!

That thought alone alot of times immediately takes my anxiety away from those fears.

…but when I see Catholics saying things like: "well, they were pretty psychologically distressed, so they won’t go to hell for it."

…new thoughts begin to creep in…

I will then start having thoughts like : "Did you hear that Ben! You are psychologially distressed! Go ahead and kill yourself now! You will be fine! You will avoid hell! There is a chance you won’t now!

These thoughts can be terrifying, and this is from somebody who doesn’t seriously entertain these thoughts. I can’t imagine how someone who actually suffers from suicidal thoughts thinks when they see comments like that!

Basically what I’m trying to say is we have to be careful what we say about suicide because there are alot of stressed out people who can read and hear these things.

-If you have full knowledge that suicide is a mortal sin (no matter how distressed you are)
-If you deliberately consent to it (no matter how stressed you are)
-You will go to hell (if you remain unrepentant about it at the moment of death)

I wish more people would say this. While it sounds mean and might cause grief to those who have had loved ones who killed themself. We also have to keep new people from committing suicide as well because they can use the “distressed” card.

-Judas suffered one of the most distressing moments in human history when he became depressed and mortified for betraying Jesus…he ended up killing himself.

Judas is seen by tradition to be a long-shot for Heaven after he did this.
Click to expand...
First of all, I’m sorry you have had these thoughts and strong compulsions to take your life. I hope you are in treatment.

I don’t think we actually know who is in heaven and not.

We don’t know how merciful God actually is, if he will overlook that, forgive, or not.

My experiences I have had with God is that he is quite merciful and forgiving, loving in the extreme.

With suicide, it is a lost opportunity. We had this tremendous opportunity to complete our mission and lost faith in ourselves, God, everything, despaired.

I don’t know what to believe about hell.
 
I agree with you that the desire to console those who remain makes one muddy the water of theological truth. Giving up on life is giving up on the future without paying attention to what is expected from us in the future, but instead paying attention to what we have expected from the present and the past and not had our expectations satisfied. So we take ourselves away from the world, totally. Physically since we do not have life as we thing we should have been given it, we kill the body, and spiritually since God has not fixed us or our life we think killing the self ends life into nothingness in relation to God (of course, since God created the soul as eternal, it cannot be killed with the body but continues in that state it has when it leaves the body - it is not pretty poetry when Hamlet says, “To be or not to be… perchance to dream”.) And our words or consolation to survivors does tend to hide that reality of continuation of the despair even after death.

An answer to seeing the future rather than giving up on the past and present can be found with Viktor Frankl in his work with “Logotherapy”. you can read his “Man’s Search for Meaning” or listen to it on YouTube youtube.com/watch?v=Xe2R_R0kVaY
It is basically the understanding of what you alone must do for the future if that desired future will ever be realized, which is what life expects of you, rather than dwelling on current or past lack of benefit that you yourself have received, but instead realizing that you are depended upon for some future reality that will not be without you continuing and doing it. Apart from the Church people find temporal expectations of the future that they alone are needed for, and with the Church we find God and what we alone can be for him.

Some might say that God needs nothing from us, but while “need” is not the proper term, yet he is expecting the love and faith of a beloved of us, that only we can make happen (only I can make that happen in his expectation from me, only you from you, and he “needs” what only you or only I can provide to him when we meet. Jesus stated, “When the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?” Well, I see that as an expectation that I must find a way to provide for him, even if all the rest fail; he will find me here for him with faith. But what if I fail? Will he then find you, so that he is not disappointed? I cannot give up. You cannot give up. He must not be disappointed.
 
People contemplating suicide need our compassion and serious, professional help, but that help should not include threatning with something that contradicts the catechism.

Suicide

2280 Everyone is responsible for his life before God who has given it to him. It is God who remains the sovereign Master of life. We are obliged to accept life gratefully and preserve it for his honor and the salvation of our souls. We are stewards, not owners, of the life God has entrusted to us. It is not ours to dispose of.

2281 Suicide contradicts the natural inclination of the human being to preserve and perpetuate his life. It is gravely contrary to the just love of self. It likewise offends love of neighbor because it unjustly breaks the ties of solidarity with family, nation, and other human societies to which we continue to have obligations. Suicide is contrary to love for the living God.

2282 If suicide is committed with the intention of setting an example, especially to the young, it also takes on the gravity of scandal. Voluntary co-operation in suicide is contrary to the moral law.

Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide.

2283 We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives.

Fear of hell may get some people who contemplate suicide to rethink their choice, but for others I think the threats of eternal damnation will be hollow. When their anguish and fear is so intense and seemingly inescapable , they may look at death as just trading one form of hell (hell on earth) for another.
 
I won’t repeat the content from the CCC, whichDeniseNY has already posted, but I do feel that it truly answers all of your concerns. John Martin is right that when we are extending our condolences we can muddy the waters that are the Truths of our faith written in the Bible and the CCC. On the other hand, you need personalized help given what you have expressed regarding your suicidal thoughts and the motivation to avoid suicide. Because of this I urge you to seek that help from your priest and follow his guidance. I will pray for you to get the answers you need to move forward in your life and be free from these thoughts
 
Ben_Sinner said:
I wish more people would say this. While it sounds mean and might cause grief to those who have had loved ones who killed themself. We also have to keep new people from committing suicide as well because they can use the “distressed” card.
Click to expand...
I’m sorry you suffer from this, but “the distress card”??? Really?? You obviously have no idea how offensive and unjust that is. As sorry as I am for your troubles, I’m even sorrier for your ignorance.
 
It is a mercy to give those who have taken their own lives the benefit of the doubt, and to hope for their salvation. It is a mercy, too, for the loved ones left behind, to acknowledge that God only knows the state of a soul at the moment of death. There is nothing easy about this, and it in no way makes the tragedy of suicide acceptable. Do not mistake mercy for approval.

Consider the words of St. John: "There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and he who fears is not perfected in love." Nevertheless, if the fear of hell is the only thing keeping you from taking your own life, then I consider that a good thing and a blessing, but a sad one. I join with the others here who hope that you are indeed seeking help for your mental health, so as to fully experience God’s love and healing grace.
 
christofirst said:
It is a mercy to give those who have taken their own lives the benefit of the doubt, and to hope for their salvation. It is a mercy, too, for the loved ones left behind, to acknowledge that God only knows the state of a soul at the moment of death. There is nothing easy about this, and it in no way makes the tragedy of suicide acceptable. Do not mistake mercy for approval.
Click to expand...
This is truly an inspired response, thank you for finding the rights words for this thread.
 
Are we too easy on suicide victims?

Its not our place to be “easy” or “hard” when judging the salvation of any individual…that’s the sole responsibility of the Almighty.

Even thinking such a thought is a grave violation of the 1st Commandment, by thinking we know better than God, the ultimate state of grace of any individual.
 
DeniseNY said:
Fear of hell may get some people who contemplate suicide to rethink their choice, but for others I think the threats of eternal damnation will be hollow. When their anguish and fear is so intense and seemingly inescapable , they may look at death as just trading one form of hell (hell on earth) for another.
Click to expand...
This is exactly right.
 
agnes_therese said:
I’m sorry you suffer from this, but “the distress card”??? Really?? You obviously have no idea how offensive and unjust that is. As sorry as I am for your troubles, I’m even sorrier for your ignorance.
Click to expand...
There is no reason to be taking this offensively. And I agree with the OP, it seems that people are using this as an excuse for an easy out.
 
There is no need to be “rough” on those who have died, God alone judges souls, which includes ourselves.

IMNAAHO

ICXC NIKA
 
GEddie said:
There is no need to be “rough” on those who have died, God alone judges souls, which includes ourselves.

IMNAAHO

ICXC NIKA
Click to expand...
I don’t think Ben is meaning that we be more rough on those who have died, I believe that he is meaning that the people here on earth need to take suicide with a more serious attitude.
 
DaddyGirl said:
I don’t think we are too easy on them at all.
The main point of telling friends and family still alive that their loved one is in heaven is to console the living–whether it is suicide or not–as you mention.

If you yourself use the idea of hell as a way not to kill yourself, that is good…I’m sure any reasoning method that will help a person not do so is helpful.
But at the same time, I don’t think we need to take away the solace others get when they think this way.
Plus, there might be truth in the original consoling statement. For a person who actually goes through with it and does it…they may indeed be at a deeper level of psychological distress.

If there is a heaven, I think Judas is there.
.
Click to expand...
While we can certainly hope that he at least got Purgatory, methinks our LORD’s statements re Judas don’t leave much in the way of hope.

ICXC NIKA
 
ChurchSuffering said:
There is no reason to be taking this offensively. And I agree with the OP, it seems that people are using this as an excuse for an easy out.
Click to expand...
The “distress card” remark is extremely offensive. There is no other way to take it.
 
I’ve been suicidal since the age of eight. I’ve come to accept the fact that in most, if not all situations, suicide is selfish and causes suffering to nearby relatives. A family member of mine tried to kill herself recently, and I can understand her reasoning. I’ve been pretty close to doing it myself. Though suicide does far too much harm to be considered a solution in any case. Those who commit suicide often don’t realize the hurt they end up causing in the long run. Mind, this isn’t me trying to condemn; those who’ve gone through with this decision deserve as much compassion as humanly possible. We can’t ignore attempts on people’s own lives either successful or unsuccessful and say they don’t do any damage however. Most importantly to the person who did the deed, but also to the family and friends of that person. That’s one of the reasons why I myself have been able to stave it off. I’m sure that I’m going to be dealing with this for a long while, but one thing is for sure; suicide is never the answer. Human life is far too precious.
 
My heart goes out to you, hearing this story. But I can not tell you how many of my friends have either attempted suicide or did in fact commit it, all for reasons that don’t require such an answer as suicide.

Yes I know that there are some cases where people might be mentally incapacitated and see it as no other way of relief. But this is seemingly rare. Many suicidal people I have talked to have said that life is just to hard, or their parents don’t care enough about them so they just kill themselves. They seem to think that just because life isn’t going how they hoped, they get to end it. But just because they are having a tough moment doesn’t give them the right to take their own life.

Society is not putting enough emphasis on the emotional an physical hurt that it causes other people. Because we are not making suicide as serious as it should be, these suicidal people view it as a way to get out of whatever they are going through. They are ultimately choosing the “distressed” card.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top