Are we too easy on suicide victims?

[DeniseNY]

No, that is why I said that it is seemingly rare.

Perhaps reading up on it would help you out. You would see that people don’t attempt suicide just because they are having a bad hair day or because their boyfriend breaks up with them. Those might be symptoms of the problem, but not the root cause.

 

[GEddie]

I don’t think Ben is meaning that we be more rough on those who have died, I believe that he is meaning that the people here on earth need to take suicide with a more serious attitude.

Except for philosophers and existentialists, I doubt anybody even thinks of suicide unless they are hurting too badly to think straight a priori.

The drive to remain alive is one of the strongest (if not the strongest) impulse in our being; it would take a lot of distortion to overcome it.

ICXC NIKA

 

[DaveBj]

Are we too easy on suicide victims?

Its not our place to be “easy” or “hard” when judging the salvation of any individual…that’s the sole responsibility of the Almighty.

Even thinking such a thought is a grave violation of the 1st Commandment, by thinking we know better than God, the ultimate state of grace of any individual.

I was going to say this, but you said it first, and, as it turns out, better.

 

[Kathie_Bondar]

First of all, I’m sorry you have had these thoughts and strong compulsions to take your life. I hope you are in treatment.

I don’t think we actually know who is in heaven and not.

We don’t know how merciful God actually is, if he will overlook that, forgive, or not.

My experiences I have had with God is that he is quite merciful and forgiving, loving in the extreme.

With suicide, it is a lost opportunity. We had this tremendous opportunity to complete our mission and lost faith in ourselves, God, everything, despaired.

I don’t know what to believe about hell.

Good advice. We are here for a reason, to accomplish a task, to prove that whatever it takes we got. If you throw away your life you will be thrown right back into a worst situation that the one you bailed out of. There is no heaven and hell, there is this life and the afterlife and we alternate between the two. The system facilitates personal growth.

 

[Ben_Sinner]

If my comments offend you, then I’m sorry. It wasn’t my intention.

As I said, I knew I would get heat for this because its a touchy subject.

My “distress” card comment was more for the people who are still stable enough to tell right from wrong. Those people who could distort the “distress” section of the CCC to mean they have a ticket out of staying alive because they know it won’t be a mortal sin.

It is possible during depression and anxiety to be culpable. Just like people who kill other people can be culpable. People don’t seem to blink an eye and when a serial killer or murderer commits a sin. They are usually seen as long shots. They are going against one of the most basic human instincts as well…being a social creature and interdependence on others.

I’m just saying that “being distressed” shouldn’t be tossed around so lightly.

And, I should have said its just not all about the fear of hell. Like you said, that may work for me, but maybe not for others.

We could advise people in such a state that if they willingly kill themselves knowing its a grave sin, they won’t enter Heaven and eternal happiness. So if they can resist the urge, they can hope for a happier future after this miserable life.

 

[GEddie]

Good advice. We are here for a reason, to accomplish a task, to prove that whatever it takes we got. If you throw away your life you will be thrown right back into a worst situation that the one you bailed out of. There is no heaven and hell, there is this life and the afterlife and we alternate between the two. The system facilitates personal growth.

That really doesn’t make sense, as with the possible exception of the near-death experience, our afterlife is a one-way ticket. Not an alternating current. You can’t come back; your natural body won’t let you back in.

ICXC NIKA

 

[agnes_therese]

Maybe it’s offensive to you because there is some truth to it.

No. It’s just plain offensive.

 

[agnes_therese]

Perhaps reading up on it would help you out. You would see that people don’t attempt suicide just because they are having a bad hair day or because their boyfriend breaks up with them. Those might be symptoms of the problem, but not the root cause.

 

[Justicia_et_Pax]

I am honestly appalled with some of the posts on here. I have no words…

 

[rayne89]

Ben you are describing OCD thought compulsions which while deeply distressing are not the same as falling into complete despair and deep psychological pain. 1)We are not too easy in suicide victims because we have nothing to do with it -they are in God mercy and justice not ours. 2)The fact that you could make such a statement means you have been blessed enough that can not fathom being so desperate which I am very glad for. You have the grace to overcome it. As the saying goes “By the grace of God…”

You are presupposing many things when we simply can not and have no right to judge the state of another’s soul. You can’t possible know the psychological history, if there is deep wounds from abuse, if their are addictions, mind altering medications or illegal drugs -so many things I can not even name.

We pray for God’s mercy as that is all we can do. I would not wish eternal damnation on the worst criminal if we can wrap our minds around what eternal really means. I’m sure there are many souls in hell but certainly we would not *hope *for someone to be there.

Suicidal people need help not condemnation. And the families of those who commit suicide suffer so gravely I think its sinful to add even one ounce of pain to their already profound grief let alone making such a horrible wound by implying the loved one may have lost their soul for all eternity when we have absolutely no way of knowing any such thing.

 

[rayne89]

My heart goes out to you, hearing this story. But I can not tell you how many of my friends have either attempted suicide or did in fact commit it, all for reasons that don’t require such an answer as suicide.

Yes I know that there are some cases where people might be mentally incapacitated and see it as no other way of relief. But this is seemingly rare. Many suicidal people I have talked to have said that life is just to hard, or their parents don’t care enough about them so they just kill themselves. They seem to think that just because life isn’t going how they hoped, they get to end it. But just because they are having a tough moment doesn’t give them the right to take their own life.

Society is not putting enough emphasis on the emotional an physical hurt that it causes other people. Because we are not making suicide as serious as it should be, these suicidal people view it as a way to get out of whatever they are going through. They are ultimately choosing the “distressed” card.

Whenever someone adds a but to the end of a comment you discount everything you just said. I have known people (too many) that have attempted suicide including one that succeeded. How is that my experience has been so polar opposite from yours? Jesus asked us to be merciful. I do not see mercy here. Maybe these people didn’t share fully their story because they sensed your inability to put yourself in their shoes?

O my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of hell. Lead all souls to heaven, especially those with the greatest need of Thy mercy.

 

[Ben_Sinner]

People are misunderstanding me; They think I’m judging those who commit suicide or I don’t have mercy.

My post has nothing to do with those who already committed suicide. Its about those who are still alive and are entertaining it.

I simply stated that for one to commit suicide in a mortally sinful matter:

1) Grave matter, which suicide definitely is.
2) The person knows its grave matter (mortal) to go through with the act.
3) The person deliberately consents to do it anyway.

If these 3 conditions are fulfilled, it is a mortal sin. Am I inaccurate in saying this?

#1 and #3 are always present in suicide. No one can unintentionally or semi-deliberately commit suicide.

Its just a matter of whether they had #2 in determining if its a mortal sin. Common catechism would say that most Catholics are aware that it is a mortal sin.

 

[DeniseNY]

Again, I refer you back to the catechism:

2282 If suicide is committed with the intention of setting an example, especially to the young, it also takes on the gravity of scandal. Voluntary co-operation in suicide is contrary to the moral law.

Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide.

Not sure why you seem to be ignoring this, and further it’s not up to any of us here on earth to determine or speculate about someone else’s salvation and the state of their soul.

 

[pensmama87]

I’m not sure you can say #3 is always present.

This is a very different type of situation, but take an idea like statutory rape. A minor can say “yes” to sex, and may even think they mean it, but in most societies minors are considered incapable of consent, no matter what they actually say. A person is also considered incapable of consenting to sex if they are drunk, high, unconscious, or otherwise mentally incapacitated.

I have been suicidal in my life. When I look back on those times, I was not capable of thinking rationally about myself or my surroundings. I may have wanted to end my life but I was not capable of thinking about what that truly meant. I am thankful I did not actually have access to the means to try, and that I was able to receive help. When I was rational, I had no desire to kill myself at all. I don’t think I could have qualified for #3, and I imagine that is true for many, many people who have considered or attempted suicide, including those who (unfortunately) succeed.

 

[Ben_Sinner]

Again, I refer you back to the catechism:

2282 If suicide is committed with the intention of setting an example, especially to the young, it also takes on the gravity of scandal. Voluntary co-operation in suicide is contrary to the moral law.

Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide.

Not sure why you seem to be ignoring this, and further it’s not up to any of us here on earth to determine or speculate about someone else’s salvation and the state of their soul.

I haven’t been ignoring it. The whole point of this entire thread was to talk about that section of the CCC.

When is the line crossed? What is considered ‘not enough anguish’? for one to be culpable.

I would say if the person can acknowledge that suicide is a mortal sin and they do it anyway, it would be mortal.

I mean those same conditions happen for other sins as well.

The church used to excommunicate people who denied the faith after being threatened with death. I imagine those people were in anguish, torture, and fear of hardship…They didn’t really want to deny the faith, but they did so anyway to save their lives.

 

[Ben_Sinner]

I’m not sure you can say #3 is always present.

This is a very different type of situation, but take an idea like statutory rape. A minor can say “yes” to sex, and may even think they mean it, but in most societies minors are considered incapable of consent, no matter what they actually say.

I don’t know if I can fully believe that. I think they can consent, they just don’t know the gravity of what is happening, which would void their culpability.

A person is also considered incapable of consenting to sex if they are drunk, high, unconscious, or otherwise mentally incapacitated.

It depends how drunk and high and mentally incapacitated…And by unconscious do you mean ‘blacked out’ or literally unconscious?

I have been suicidal in my life. When I look back on those times, I was not capable of thinking rationally about myself or my surroundings. I may have wanted to end my life but I was not capable of thinking about what that truly meant.

I would say that you wouldn’t qualify as the type of person I was talking about in this thread. They KNOW (or at least catechized, assuming they are Catholic) what they are doing is gravely wrong and CHOOSE to do it anyway. This doesn’t seem to fit your case.

I am thankful I did not actually have access to the means to try, and that I was able to receive help. When I was rational, I had no desire to kill myself at all. I don’t think I could have qualified for #3,

Well you didn’t do it, so you can’t have #3. but those who did made a deliberate choice to do it. Its a matter of how coherent they were of it being a grave offense.

and I imagine that is true for many, many people who have considered or attempted suicide, including those who (unfortunately) succeed.

 

[agnes_therese]

The church used to excommunicate people who denied the faith after being threatened with death. I imagine those people were in anguish, torture, and fear of hardship…They didn’t really want to deny the faith, but they did so anyway to save their lives.

You are comparing apples and oranges, Ben. You are showing over and over that you don’t comprehend what people go through before attempting/committing suicide.

 

[pensmama87]

I would say that you wouldn’t qualify as the type of person I was talking about in this thread. They KNOW (or at least catechized, assuming they are Catholic) what they are doing is gravely wrong and CHOOSE to do it anyway. This doesn’t seem to fit your case.

I am not a mental health expert.

But my personal experience, and my experiences in discussing suicidal thoughts and tendencies with mental health professionals, as well as those who have lost loved ones to suicide, suggests that virtually nobody who attempts suicide is in a normal mental state where they could be considered culpable.

I think you may be splitting hairs so much on word meaning you are missing the forest for the trees: I can’t think of a single situation in which a person who is not mentally ill (or otherwise under extreme duress) would commit suicide. If a person is mentally ill, they have diminished capacity to understand what they are doing, which is going to affect their ability to consent.

If this thread is only about people who are sane who consider suicide, I would propose that this thread is about nobody.

 

[Ben_Sinner]

No sane person would commit suicide. You have to be mentally ill and thus wouldn’t be culpable

So when is suicide a mortal sin then?

Its listed in the CCC as one for a reason.

There has to be a line. Mentally ill doesn’t always mean that people lose their free will.

Where is the line when its mortal and when it isn’t?

 

[Bruised_Reed]

People are misunderstanding me; They think I’m judging those who commit suicide or I don’t have mercy.

My post has nothing to do with those who already committed suicide. Its about those who are still alive and are entertaining it.

I simply stated that for one to commit suicide in a mortally sinful matter:

1) Grave matter, which suicide definitely is.
2) The person knows its grave matter (mortal) to go through with the act.
3) The person deliberately consents to do it anyway.

If these 3 conditions are fulfilled, it is a mortal sin. Am I inaccurate in saying this?

#1 and #3 are always present in suicide. No one can unintentionally or semi-deliberately commit suicide.

Its just a matter of whether they had #2 in determining if its a mortal sin. Common catechism would say that most Catholics are aware that it is a mortal sin.

But with any kind of mental disorder thoughts can be distorted. I can even use migraine headaches as an example; the pain is so severe that all I am capable of thinking is that my brain is going to implode and that is how I’m going to die. It doesn’t matter that I’ve had a migraine headache before and lived to tell about it. I cannot really process that the pain will pass and that I’ve had the same thoughts before.

With suicide any one of the three conditions may be missing because of severe psychological pain. Even if a suicidal person is aware of the conditions for mortal sin (because they are reading it or someone is talking to them about it) their distorted thoughts may veer to the idea that they deserve to go to hell, so suicide whether mortal or venial hardly matters.