Are we too easy on suicide victims?

[Ben_Sinner]

They may know it’s a mortal sin, but I’m still having trouble understanding why you don’t get that people who are truly suicidal are not in a rational state of mind and therefore do not act rationally:

Because ‘not thinking rationally’ could be used with any other mortal sin. People in Sodom were some of the most mentally depraved people in the bible, but that didn’t stop Jesus from condemning them. While there probably are cases where the person is so disoriented they can’t be culpable, but those type of people most likely wouldn’t be having examinations of conscience.

It is possible they could still be saved, but the odds are extremely unlikely they would be if they intentionally did something they were told was gravely sinful. Depressed people don’t lose their conscience, they are still obligated to follow it. If they are coherent enough to make a personal choice (as the CCC says), they are culpable. This argument seems to make our free will very feeble if we happen to suffer from an illness.

 

[Ben_Sinner]

But I did have knowledge; those beliefs were somewhere in my brain. You don’t seem to be able to comprehend severely distorted thinking

“Somewhere in my brain” is not full knowledge.

 

[DeniseNY]

Or, better yet, educate people BEFORE they even get to that point. Like right here. We can educate each other about the sinfulness of suicide. Some people here who aren’t even suicidal seem to be resisting the truth of the sinfulness of suicide. I think that’s a problem.

As I said in my prior post, no one here is saying suicide is A-ok. Those of us who are not suicidal get that it’s against nature and understand the sinfulness of it. But we get it, because unlike people who are suicidal, we are able to think rationally.

 

[Ben_Sinner]

I forgot to post this in my previous post.

1859 Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice.

Not a rational choice, but a personal one.

Choosing to commit a mortal sin is always irrational.

 

[DeniseNY]

I forgot to post this in my previous post.

1859 Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice.

Not a rational choice, but a personal one.

Choosing to commit a mortal sin is always irrational.

It doesn’t add anything to your argument, other than to ultimately prove that you disagree with the Church’s position on suicide.

I think post #40 kind of summed things up very succinctly:

If this thread is only about people who are sane who consider suicide, I would propose that this thread is about nobody.

I’ve taken this discussion as far as I can. I’m out.

 

[Methos]

Look at the example of the saints who suffered from all kinds of horrible physical and mental calamities (including depresssion). They did not use that as a reason to compromise the will of God.

I think it’s sub-zero in many places in the U.S. Would you like to step outside, wearing only a t-shirt and pants, and see how long you last? I can stand below freezing wearing only windbreaker, but most people can’t even stand the 50’s without a coat. Everyone’s different. The saints are more akin to Bret Favre or Cy Young in terms of spirituality. So, I doubt many people can reach their level. As Bruised Reed stated, comparing us to them doesn’t help. It would show me how else I failed in life, adding to the problem. “Well, I can’t throw like Favre, I might as well give up on football.,” but in this case, “I can’t have the faith of St. So-So during this trial, I might as well just give up on life as I’m going to hell anyways.” That’s what goes through my mind almost daily.

Mental illness is exactly that, an** ILLNESS**. Some people with cancer only need some chemo or radiation, while other people can have everything thrown at it and still die. Depression is the same way. Some people can get by with a little therapy and/or medication, but for other people it much more difficult (I have dysthymic and schizoid disorders). Just as cancer will wear a body down, depression can do the same thing to the mind. Just as cancer are mutated cells that kill the very body that spawned them, depression can cause the mind to do the same thing. Just as cancer can spread to other organs of the body, depression can spread and affect other parts of your life so what once was a source of strength is seen as a source of sorrow. A mother might have such thoughts such as “I love my children, they’d be better off if I died and their father re-married,” or" I guess I don’t a strong faith or I would be weathering this depression better."

 

[Ben_Sinner]

It doesn’t add anything to your argument, other than to ultimately prove that you disagree with the Church’s position on suicide.

Nowhere in this thread did I disagree with the Church’s position.

The church’s position says mental disorders can reduce the culpability.

The key word is “can”, meaning it doesn’t apply to all situations where people are mental.y distressed.

The church also says one who makes a deliberate personal choice knowing its gravely sinful is a mortal sin, and one is obligated to obey their conscience. Depression doesn’t eliminate one’s conscience.

So I would assume that the situations where it ‘can’ be reduced culpability are the people who didn’t make a personal choice to do something gravely sinful by committing suicide because their psyche was all over the place.

 

[Ben_Sinner]

I think it’s sub-zero in many places in the U.S. Would you like to step outside, wearing only a t-shirt and pants, and see how long you last? I can stand below freezing wearing only windbreaker, but most people can’t even stand the 50’s without a coat.

Not being able to survive in sub-zero weather is different from intentionally killing yourself to get out of a situation.

Everyone’s different. The saints are more akin to Bret Favre or Cy Young in terms of spirituality. So, I doubt many people can reach their level. As Bruised Reed stated, comparing us to them doesn’t help. It would show me how else I failed in life, adding to the problem. “Well, I can’t throw like Favre, I might as well give up on football.,” but in this case, “I can’t have the faith of St. So-So during this trial, I might as well just give up on life as I’m going to hell anyways.” That’s what goes through my mind almost daily.

I just used the saints as examples of how one still has a choice to discern right and wrong in the midst of a calamity that consumes their mind and body. This can be true whether it is a saint or a regular Joe Six Pack.

Mental illness is exactly that, an** ILLNESS**. Some people with cancer only need some chemo or radiation, while other people can have everything thrown at it and still die. Depression is the same way. Some people can get by with a little therapy and/or medication, but for other people it much more difficult (I have dysthymic and schizoid disorders). Just as cancer will wear a body down, depression can do the same thing to the mind. Just as cancer are mutated cells that kill the very body that spawned them, depression can cause the mind to do the same thing. Just as cancer can spread to other organs of the body, depression can spread and affect other parts of your life so what once was a source of strength is seen as a source of sorrow. A mother might have such thoughts such as “I love my children, they’d be better off if I died and their father re-married,” or" I guess I don’t a strong faith or I would be weathering this depression better."

I could argue over this all day but its not going to get anywhere. I don’t want to argue anymore on this because I expressed my argument over 5 pages now.

Here is what I believe. People can accept it or reject it:

As long as the person can sufficiently use their free will to discern right and wrong and make moral choices, they will still be held accountable if they commit an act they believe was gravely sinful no matter what emotional state they are in. If they consciously believe something to be wrong and still do it anyway, its wrong. The ends never justify the means.

If they are so hung up to the point where they don’t even really think about sin and moral theology, there is more hope that they are in a state of grace.

And regarding an earlier argument made:

To say that no sane person would consider or commit suicide, thus not be held culpable, is a blanket argument with no basis. If that were true, the church wouldn’t label it as a mortal sin because anybody who did it would be written off as insane and non-culpable.

And insanity in itself doesn’t automatically mean the person can’t make personal moral choices. Look at Ted Bundy for example. The man committed mass murder, rape, and necrophilia, yet allegedly repented of his sins and converted to Christianity…While the sincerity of his conversion and repentance is questionable…it does show that he knew the difference between right and wrong, even amongst his insanity.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

In the height of the “despair” segment of the “depression” aspect of my “severe bipolar disorder,” (about 2005) I found a way to spend what seemed like 20 hours a day, not sleeping even with pretty strong tranqulizers, wallowing around on the floor on a mattress just wishing the terrible racing thoughts would stop. It seemed my plans for life and my family had all been taken away by forces beyond my control. Every hour, my mind ran dozens of scenarios of “possible futures” for me, and of course not a single one of them was acceptable. I had no options, I would not be able to feed my family, etc.

So I wanted the thoughts to stop. I didn’t want to die, and I was pretty sure I wasn’t going to self-inflict pain because I “don’t do” physical pain (emotional pain – bring it awwn. I’m ready … hee hee) but I was certainly OK with the idea that death would be comforting compared to having these racing negative thoughts.

The only thing that seemed to help was I got interested in playing some little computer games one called something like “great blobs of jelly” with these little dinosaur things, and one with finding the US states. For some reason I could distract myself with them for maybe a couple hours a day tops.

Mostly when I talk to someone who is suicidal, I’ll ask them about what’s going on and why it hurts and maybe help them reframe it a bit. Personally I think that telling a person not to commit suicide because they will go to hell, is not generally a useful topic to bring up unless they do, and may just add to the fear. They already think they are a massive failure or that they cannot negotiate life; telling them that they’re about to screw up their eternal rest may not be that much of a motivating factor – because it will at least take them out of the terrible situation they think they are in. They may think, “well what’s worse?”

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

As long as the person can sufficiently use their free will to discern right and wrong and make moral choices, they will still be held accountable if they commit an act they believe was gravely sinful no matter what emotional state they are in. If they consciously believe something to be wrong and still do it anyway, its wrong. The ends never justify the means.

I think you are making your point clearly. I haven’t read the whole thread so sorry if I missed something obvious.

If they are so hung up to the point where they don’t even really think about sin and moral theology, there is more hope that they are in a state of grace.

I like this point, too.

And regarding an earlier argument made:

To say that no sane person would consider or commit suicide, thus not be held culpable, is a blanket argument with no basis. If that were true, the church wouldn’t label it as a mortal sin because anybody who did it would be written off as insane and non-culpable.

And insanity in itself doesn’t automatically mean the person can’t make personal moral choices. Look at Ted Bundy for example. The man committed mass murder, rape, and necrophilia, yet allegedly repented of his sins and converted to Christianity…While the sincerity of his conversion and repentance is questionable…it does show that he knew the difference between right and wrong, even amongst his insanity.

Having been a “certified insane person” and in fact technically I still am, I am a believer that being psychotic can drive one to some fairly crazy behaviors. When I was going through psychosis and “Dark Night” all at once, I did some pretty crazy stuff myself. Once I drove in front of a moving train – it was nothing I’d ever even considered before in my life and I was over 50 so not just a kid looking for thrills. It was as if my arms and legs suddenly motivated and drove me around the gates. It was very spooky, but for some reason I did not feel fear. It was as if something controlled me and I was just watching myself do it. So I can’t say much about Bundy, but I do now and then like to watch videos of people who are considered “evil” so I might just go watch him a bit now that you mentioned it. I like to see people who are extreme in different ways, because for one thing it helps me become mortified (or “habituated” to use psychology term) to the terrible thing so it doesn’t give me the visceral reaction, and because it helps me understand both the range and nature of human experience and helps me when I come across situations with people who might, let’s say, “have a screw loose” somewhere.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

Nowhere in this thread did I disagree with the Church’s position.

The church’s position says mental disorders can reduce the culpability.

The key word is “can”, meaning it doesn’t apply to all situations where people are mental.y distressed.

Of course it doesn’t apply to every situation of mental distress. Defining what it looks like is impossible; how will we ever be able to describe each separate moment experienced by every individual? It’s a bit like using a hypothetical example that changes or shifts as new information is added to make the hypothetical more concrete.

The church also says one who makes a deliberate personal choice knowing its gravely sinful is a mortal sin, and one is obligated to obey their conscience. Depression doesn’t eliminate one’s conscience.

But a severe condition or crisis might cloud a person’s reasoning or judgement. You said it yourself in reply to one of my posts; I didn’t have knowledge so I wasn’t culpable.

Can you acknowledge that there is a spectrum of severity from mild to very severe? Do you understand that a person may or may not have a mental illness but they have a lot of stress in their life (or something makes their life unstable) and combine that with a crisis situation that causes them to “snap”?

So I would assume that the situations where it ‘can’ be reduced culpability are the people who didn’t make a personal choice to do something gravely sinful by committing suicide because their psyche was all over the place.

Pretty much.

You might come to a better understanding if you approached this from the other side as you just did. And don’t think about you; think about others. Showing mercy to others in this kind of exercise may help you to show yourself mercy. Those intrusive thoughts are merciless toward you and that same harshness is reflected in some of your reasoning that does not seem to wan to differentiate between mild and severe. Or perhaps the difference of newly acquired situational depression or mild but chronic depression.

I also wonder if you might be applying civil law, where there are concrete laws and punishments. Even when the laws and punishments are fair and just they are facilitated by fallible humans. A judge or jury might be lenient when the crime is heinous or unduly harsh for petty crimes due to bigotry. God is perfectly just and perfectly merciful and knows all. He’s got all those mitigating factors all figured out and we can’t fool him. We can’t fool him into thinking we are blameless when we are guilty nor can’t we fool him into a harsher punishment because he knows how wounded we are and how we’ve already flogged ourselves.

 

[Agnessa]

Personally I think that telling a person not to commit suicide because they will go to hell, is not generally a useful topic to bring up unless they do, and may just add to the fear. They already think they are a massive failure or that they cannot negotiate life; telling them that they’re about to screw up their eternal rest may not be that much of a motivating factor – because it will at least take them out of the terrible situation they think they are in. They may think, “well what’s worse?”

I don’t know about that. As someone struggling with suicidal thoughts, I get the feeling, that sometimes what stops me is the realization, that if I go through with whatever plan of taking my life I have in mind, the eternity would be so much worse for me than everything I experience right now. It is a bad motivation to continue living, I concur; but it is still better than none at all.

I think I get where the original poster is going. The Catechism states it just right, I think, by telling that we can hope for forgiveness for those who committed suicide, but we can never know for certain, since suicide is still a mortal sin. I’ve heard views on the topic, however, that might be interpreted in a much “milder” way: that people who committed suicide will for sure go to Heaven, because they suffer so much here on Earth. And while this thought can be comforting to those who lost their loved ones to suicide, I believe that at least for some of those who consider killing themselves, hearing such words would do more harm than good.

 

[agnes_therese]

I’m talking about people who KNOW something is gravely wrong, and do it anyway…I’m still having trouble understanding why people can’t consider that a mortal sin.

And I’m still having trouble understanding why you’re so insistent on blaming people who have become so desolate that they could see no other solution than suicide.

 

[pensmama87]

I don’t know about that. As someone struggling with suicidal thoughts, I get the feeling, that sometimes what stops me is the realization, that if I go through with whatever plan of taking my life I have in mind, the eternity would be so much worse for me than everything I experience right now. It is a bad motivation to continue living, I concur; but it is still better than none at all.

I think I get where the original poster is going. The Catechism states it just right, I think, by telling that we can hope for forgiveness for those who committed suicide, but we can never know for certain, since suicide is still a mortal sin. I’ve heard views on the topic, however, that might be interpreted in a much “milder” way: that people who committed suicide will for sure go to Heaven, because they suffer so much here on Earth. And while this thought can be comforting to those who lost their loved ones to suicide, I believe that at least for some of those who consider killing themselves, hearing such words would do more harm than good.

And for me it would have been the opposite. I was already convinced that I was unlovable and an awful human being who didn’t deserve to live. Being told what I had already heard by that time, that what I was contemplating doing was a grave offense against God, would have just furthered my conviction that I was horrible and deserved everything I was getting in this life and possibly in the next. It would have made me feel even more like God did not care about my pain.

I do think that suicide is a grave offense against human dignity and the value of life. Absolutely. And it should be taught as such, in general, along with other grave offenses against life. But I don’t think that it’s a wise thing to bring up to a person who is in the throes of suicidal thinking, because it is very possible they will not hear you right. A person who is considering suicide needs reminding of God’s love and mercy - instead of, “You could be committing mortal sin,” to say something like, “God loves you and does not want you to take your own life. The suffering you are enduring is not God’s doing. He is not punishing you. He wants you to be whole.”

 

[CompSciGuy]

While we can certainly hope that he at least got Purgatory, methinks our LORD’s statements re Judas don’t leave much in the way of hope.

ICXC NIKA

GEddie is correct. Do you even remember what Jesus said about him? “Woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born.” Matthew 26:24

If Judas was in heaven then Jesus’ words would be rendered meaningless.

 

[Agnessa]

And for me it would have been the opposite. I was already convinced that I was unlovable and an awful human being who didn’t deserve to live. Being told what I had already heard by that time, that what I was contemplating doing was a grave offense against God, would have just furthered my conviction that I was horrible and deserved everything I was getting in this life and possibly in the next. It would have made me feel even more like God did not care about my pain.

I do think that suicide is a grave offense against human dignity and the value of life. Absolutely. And it should be taught as such, in general, along with other grave offenses against life. But I don’t think that it’s a wise thing to bring up to a person who is in the throes of suicidal thinking, because it is very possible they will not hear you right. A person who is considering suicide needs reminding of God’s love and mercy - instead of, “You could be committing mortal sin,” to say something like, “God loves you and does not want you to take your own life. The suffering you are enduring is not God’s doing. He is not punishing you. He wants you to be whole.”

I agree that great care have to be provided while dealing with suicidal persons in any case… as even the best intentions can be misinterpreted. Each struggle is different, and there is no one-fits-all solution, I suppose.
And yes, one has to be reminded of God’s love, even if it is very hard to believe in it sometimes.

 

[rayne89]

But I don’t think that it’s a wise thing to bring up to a person who is in the throes of suicidal thinking, because it is very possible they will not hear you right. A person who is considering suicide needs reminding of God’s love and mercy - instead of, “You could be committing mortal sin,” to say something like, “God loves you and does not want you to take your own life. The suffering you are enduring is not God’s doing. He is not punishing you. He wants you to be whole.”

This exactly.

Ben I don’t understand the point of speculating to when it is enough to be culpable, what degrees etc -we clearly are not God and can not read another person’s soul. We can not possibly know. In fact the church never declares anyone in hell, they only declare ones that are in Heaven -the saints (after a long investigation and two miracles). That does not mean the church does not think anyone is in hell, it means the Church knows *only *God knows for certain the state of each person’s soul. If the Church will not declare Jeffrey Dahmer, Adolf Hitler or Joseph Stalin in hell surely us as pew sitters do not need to speculate on those who choose suicide.

If you mean it as a deterrent -I think it may be one of the least effective ways as many people who are suicidal feel they are already in hell. Suicidal people need compassion, someone to care, someone to say their existence matters, that God loves them -not condemnation, not God will send you to hell. I think that is the point you are failing to recognize.

 

[PelagiathePenit]

I did not read the entire opening post. I think there is truth in your statement. God is infinitely merciful, but to an extent, I do not think anyone should presume that suicide is just an okay with God. I do not know. I would not want anyone who kills themselves to assume they would automatically God to heaven.

 

[Peaceful_One]

This exactly.

Ben I don’t understand the point of speculating to when it is enough to be culpable, what degrees etc -we clearly are not God and can not read another person’s soul. We can not possibly know. In fact the church never declares anyone in hell, they only declare ones that are in Heaven -the saints (after a long investigation and two miracles). That does not mean the church does not think anyone is in hell, it means the Church knows *only *God knows for certain the state of each person’s soul. If the Church will not declare Jeffrey Dahmer, Adolf Hitler or Joseph Stalin in hell surely us as pew sitters do not need to speculate on those who choose suicide.

If you mean it as a deterrent -I think it may be one of the least effective ways as many people who are suicidal feel they are already in hell. Suicidal people need compassion, someone to care, someone to say their existence matters, that God loves them -not condemnation, not God will send you to hell. I think that is the point you are failing to recognize.

^^^This.

 

[Ben_Sinner]

I understand what you are all saying.

I don’t necessarily agree with it and still stick by my argument, but I understand.

For some, the fear of hell may work. For others, it may make things worse.