Are white supremacists bad people?

[PelagiathePenit]

What part do you find the most troubling?

Well, I have been unkind. When I am, I try to understand why I have been unkind. When the answer is something like, "I was unkind because I am bad (mean, egotistical, etc., all the negatives), then I know that I have not forgiven myself. There is more to understand. Of course, we have not the means of understanding any specific individual’s way of coming to the place he is, but we can ask ourselves the question, “How would I get that way?”, and if the answer is something like “If I were bad… If I were an egotistical jerk… etc.” then I have not looked deeply enough. All of us can relate to ingroup/outgroup thinking, it is very natural. Add a layer of resentment, and you have the foundation for racist thinking.

I agree that it is not wrong to despise them or dislike them, and I share your discomfort! I find encountering them unsettling, and I have to stay connected within to remember that they are people just like you and I. It is very easy to go back into condemning mode.

What Fr. De Mello said is that thinking negatively about people poisons us, it is the same as holding a grudge. Jesus calls us to forgive those we hold anything against. Alcoholics Anonymous is the origin of “resentment is when you take the poison and wait for the other person to die.” It doesn’t matter who we resent; the effect is the same.

Fair enough.

 

[OneSheep]

Yes, a lot.

Well, that would give reason for a person to avoid understanding, if they wished to cling to their zeal. I would say that my own zeal is unchanged, largely because I want to be active because of empathy and wanting to be part of building the Kingdom, but not because of anger and/or resentment. Not to say that I don’t get angry about it sometimes, but stasis is understanding/forgiveness … and advocacy for the oppressed.

Yes, I think so. At the end we are deeply racist without knowing it, we enjoy beauty and hate ugly.

Perhaps we are drawn to beauty, and react with resentment to injustice. Is that a restatement?

Yes, I was thinking and feeling like that. Consider the case of Hitler, he was of course was a rational person and believed on what he was saying.

Yes, he did not have a clue what he was doing. Like all of us, when he hated certain groups of people, he saw them as worthless and disposable, his empathy was blocked (assuming that he was capable of empathy, of course). I cannot think of Hitler as “bad” because I have had the same thought patterns. He was living in an illusion, and the results were horrible.

The seeds of illusion are active in the U.S. today, it is time that the Church mobilizes against it. How we do it, I think, is through engagement, but that engagement must have mercy in mind, not punishment, or nothing will really change.

 

[inocente]

Well, this is the sticky part, though. If you are telling them that they are evil, how do you do this without expressing condemnation of them as people.? Really, is there any more condemning thing we can say about a person than to call them evil?

Easily the most condemning thing is to call him a Republican.

At these times I look at the OED, which says evil = profoundly immoral and wicked.

And white supremacists really are profoundly immoral and wicked. Best be honest. They can be redeemed, but not until they realize they are profoundly immoral and wicked.

*Another great point, but I’m pretty sure the Lecter character had a pathology, an inability to empathize normally, which happens of course. It may be unwise to express to a person that you forgive, but it always does us good to forgive people from the heart. Jesus asks us to forgive with this criteria:

Mark 11:25New International Version (NIV)

25 And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive them, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.”*

Jesus invites us to take a step toward holiness. How loving is our Father? Does he love unconditionally? Well, our answer is going to be a matter of projection. If I refused to forgive one of my own children for taking on racist leanings, then it is very likely that I would surmise that the Father would not love or forgive me for having a racist ideology. In fact, if I hold any condition of loving someone, then it is almost impossible to believe that God would love me if I held the same condition.

In my own view, it is not wrong to love people conditionally, that is not what I read from the Gospel, but like I said, Jesus invites us to a deeper holiness.

We’re not talking about racist leanings though, white supremacists are adamant racists who want to dominate everyone else. To paraphrase 1 Cor 5:

I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with white supremacists — not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is a white supremacist. Do not even eat with such people.

Paul only rules out the general case, of people outside who are less bad, on grounds of practicality - we’d never deal with anyone if we could only deal with perfectly good people. But for people who are sat on the pew next to us, Paul is telling us to move to another pew or another church, and have nothing to do with them. It’s not about conditional love, or about holding anything against them, and it’s not about us. Paul is saying they chose not to be our neighbors, so have nothing to do with them.

I was brought up with a racist mentality. Through prayer, I was healed. I wanted to overcome. If I was personally condemned for having a racist mentality, there might have been some resistance on my part, especially if I had hurtful race-related experiences in my past.

For a person who holds white-supremacist views, to overcome he will have to forgive those people who have offended him in the past. Yes, it is difficult. He may not see a reason to forgive, or thinks that he will not forgive until the offender repents. If he holds those views, he is stuck, just like all of us who hold onto grudges.

That’s what racism is, right? The kind of racism that involves anger and condemnation of groups of people is a big grudge.

Not sure who “offended him in the past”. I mean if he’s offended, then it’s just by black people being black. They’ve not done anything to offend him, they could be really kind to him and give him all they possess, and he would still be offended because they’re black.

But even then, I don’t know as he is offended. What makes him a white supremacist is that he thinks they are inferior and he has a God-given right to dominate them.

Either way, I can’t see why his victims would need to ask him to forgive them. “Sorry I’m black, please forgive me for being raped and lynched by you”.

 

[Peebo]

Yes…if they think they are superior to other people…and yes…if they act out that “superiority” through violence …intimidation…etc…then yes in those cases they are being both physically…and…morally evil…they have the same choice that God gave to all of us…to do good…or to do evil…it has nothing to do with…“let he who is without sin”…then they become bad people doing evil things…"good " people on the other hand are expected to take a stand against evil…and that includes confronting those who are doing evil…for good people to do nothing is to succumb to evil.

 

[OneSheep]

Good Morning inocente,

Easily the most condemning thing is to call him a Republican.

At these times I look at the OED, which says evil = profoundly immoral and wicked.

And white supremacists really are profoundly immoral and wicked. Best be honest. They can be redeemed, but not until they realize they are profoundly immoral and wicked.

Well, you are saying they are immoral/wicked, which indicates you are saying something about their existence, that there is some negative value to them as individuals. However, because we use the word “are” in many ways, you are probably saying that they are people (God’s beautiful creatures) just like you and me, but their behaviors and ideologies are hurtful and untrue. Is that accurate?

We’re not talking about racist leanings though, white supremacists are adamant racists who want to dominate everyone else. To paraphrase 1 Cor 5:

I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with white supremacists — not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is a white supremacist. Do not even eat with such people.

I think that this would be an accurate paraphrase. The key part is “claims to be a brother or sister”. He is appealing to Christians to motivate those who want to be part of the community to change their ways. He would definitely have a different thing to say concerning those that do not want to be part of the Christian community. Jesus ate with tax collectors and sinners.

Paul only rules out the general case, of people outside who are less bad, on grounds of practicality - we’d never deal with anyone if we could only deal with perfectly good people. But for people who are sat on the pew next to us, Paul is telling us to move to another pew or another church, and have nothing to do with them. It’s not about conditional love, or about holding anything against them, and it’s not about us. Paul is saying they chose not to be our neighbors, so have nothing to do with them.

Well, Paul has a right to his opinion. I still think that it is fruitful to engage those of hurtful ideologies in ways that is respectful, but attempting to help them see the light.

Not sure who “offended him in the past”. I mean if he’s offended, then it’s just by black people being black. They’ve not done anything to offend him, they could be really kind to him and give him all they possess, and he would still be offended because they’re black.

I’m not sure you could find such a person. There is a story behind each individual coming to embrace racism, a sense of injustice, a crime, a trespass (“those black people moved into our neighborhood and ‘ruined’ it”). There are real cultural clashes, where someone ends up getting offended for what seems to everyone else to be nothing. And then, of course, there are politicians who pass laws that help the oppressed and marginalized, and the help comes in the form of taxes that all people, including the racists, have to pay. Again, this is seen as an offense. God knows I have had to forgive the government for many things my own dollars help support… Offended just because of skin color? I really don’t think so, there is a lot of baggage behind such a stance. They think those of different ethnicity are bad or worthless because of this or that, just as many people find racists bad because of this or that.

But even then, I don’t know as he is offended. What makes him a white supremacist is that he thinks they are inferior and he has a God-given right to dominate them.

Well, such a person would be more deranged or had been subject to some kind of brain-washing. And if that was the case, if he was not angry or bent on what he sees as justice, he would be relatively harmless, and simple encounter with those of a different race would easily change his mind. The ones who stubbornly promote racism have some kind of hurt in their past, they want justice, and they feel resentment.

It would be nice for a racist person (or ex-racist) to confirm or deny what I am saying here.

And think about it, inocente, wouldn’t it be interesting to have such a person “associating” with us on this thread? Some really interesting stories would come of it.

Either way, I can’t see why his victims would need to ask him to forgive them. “Sorry I’m black, please forgive me for being raped and lynched by you”.

I’m not sure how victims asking for forgiveness is part of the issue here. We are called to forgive people whether they ask for forgiveness or not. After all, it is very easy to forgive a repentant person. Jesus forgave the unrepentant, He set the bar a bit higher. What would be fruitful is for victims to forgive their oppressors, just as Christ promoted forgiveness rather than revenge concerning the occupiers.

I think it is helpful to keep in mind that those who are fervently racist feel that they are victims of injustice. This was the Nazi mindset. This is also the stance of those who are anti-immigrant today.

 

[OneSheep]

Yes…if they think they are superior to other people…and yes…if they act out that “superiority” through violence …intimidation…etc…then yes in those cases they are being both physically…and…morally evil…

If you could perhaps specify your words, please. For example, could you pick one of these or come up with your own clarification?

A. They are morally evil in that they do hurtful acts and see some of God’s loved creatures as inferior in some way. They are physically evil because in seeing others as inferior, they themselves are objectively inferior or of negative value.

B. Their morals are malligned, their consciences malformed. They are still loved by God and good because created by Him, but their ideologies and behaviors are hurtful/bad/untrue.

C. They are bad just as all people are bad in some way.

D. They are bad in behavior, in comparison to most people, so comparatively speaking, they are on the negative side of the scale of human value.

E. ?

they have the same choice that God gave to all of us…to do good…or to do evil…it has nothing to do with…“let he who is without sin”…then they become bad people doing evil things.

I think you are saying that if we do not cast stones, then they will continue to do the same, and worse?

"good " people on the other hand are expected to take a stand against evil…and that includes confronting those who are doing evil…for good people to do nothing is to succumb to evil.

Yes, those who have with normal, healthy consciences will react to the bad acts of people with supremacist and racist ideologies, and the braver ones (with a bit of anger or resentment to motivate) will confront those doing evil, hopefully with positive results. We should definitely not sit idly by, I agree! This is not to say that only those with anger or resentment make the move to confront; there is also an approach for which mercy comes easier, motivated by empathy for the victims… and the oppressors.

I have a question for you Peebo, because you brought in the interesting dimension of “good people”. Would you agree that the standard for “good people” in Western society is that good people are to hate/find evil/ those racists, Nazis, white supremacists, etc.?

Thanks for posting!

 

[rose_kelly]

I agree, Rose. This thread is not an evaluation of racism, hatred, and bigotry, but a discussion concerning those who express and hold those conditions.

Are they bad people?

Or, are they people like you and I that have experienced life in a different way, with a different set of illusions? As St. Paul said, none of us sees perfectly.

They are people with a bad mentality that have caused (and continue to cause) great suffering, pain, and damage by their actions.

So it’s the victims of those actions I have empathy for, not the racist supremacists.

That doesn’t mean I have never thought about how they became that way, and considered that some may not be entirely responsible if they had been environmentally conditioned to think and behave that way, but I doubt they will change by gestures of sympathy.

And hopefully, in view of recent events, continued media and public outrage, condemnation from religious leaders, politicians, and others in positions of authority will have a desired effect

 

[rose_kelly]

Well it depends. Silence is sometimes the most appropriate response. E.g. when people post alt-right comments on CAF, presumably they want their comments to receive as much attention as possible; I generally try not to respond to, or even read, such comments.

Yes in some cases silence is the better response, but not in the subject I was referring to.

 

[Peter_J]

Yes in some cases silence is the better response, but not in the subject I was referring to.

Possibly, I haven’t been keeping very careful track of what has been said.

I guess I’m coming to the conclusion that, just for myself, the right thing to do is to leave this thread and forget about it.

 

[Bradski]

It would be nice for a racist person (or ex-racist) to confirm or deny what I am saying here.

That would be me (in fact, it would be all of us to some extent, but I’ll do as an example).

When and where I grew up, there was no-one that didn’t belong to my background. Celtic in my case (I was born in Wales), but think white Anglo Saxon and that would cover the ethnicity. No African or Asian people whatsoever. Hell, I didn’t even know anyone who was English.

And there was overt racism everywhere. My parents, my peers, my teachers, the media. Everyone used what we now class as derogatory terms for anyone who wasn’t ‘like us’. The excuses that were used were just that. ‘They’ll take our jobs, they are dirty, they breed like rabbits…’. All of it born from an inbuilt mistrust of anyone who doesn’t belong in your group and sheer ignorance.

So I used the terms that I can’t even type out now. I cracked all the jokes that would shame me now. I had all the attitudes that would classify me as a dyed-in-the-wool, bona fide racist. Then I left home and went to the Big City. London in this case. And hey, there were all these different people in the office, on the bus, in the shops, in the pub. And I was the outsider. I was the one who talked funny and was ‘different’.

But there’s ignorance and there is wilful ignorance. Once I realised that the guy I was working next to and the girl on the tube and the boys in the pub talking football were all the same, then racist attitudes disappeared. It’s hard to think of someone in negative terms when he’s shouting you a beer.

The wilful ignorance comes into it when you ignore the evidence of your own eyes. You ignore the fact that we are all the same. You prefer to listen to your baser instincts. And then you might want to associate with people who think the same way as you do. And wear white sheets and burn crosses and wave a flag with swastika on it.

I can excuse ignorance. In fact, I have to. You can’t blame someone for having an attitude that’s based on it. But once they have the knowledge, once they make a conscious decision to ignore the evidence, then there is no excuse.

 

[DeoVindice1863]

White supremacists are not bad people just because of that belief. Whether or not the belief is bad is a totally different thing. When you actually study history, you’ll learn about people that were white supremacists but did not want to harm black people. They would view them as children that need taking care of. The same is true with people I’ve met that are racist but not rude to blacks and don’t want to harm them; they just view them as inferior. It is, of corse, easy to go from thinking a person is inferior to thinking they need to be beat down or killed because of the sub human status assigned to them. That is what makes white supremacy and any other kind of similar superiority/supremacy complex dangerous, and that is what we see going on with violent white supremacists that do evil things.

 

[Lea101]

Personally, I see very little difference between a white supremacist and a Catholic. Both have irrational beliefs based upon perceived truths. Both are steadfastly certain that those perceived truths are actual truths, and that it’s everyone else’s truths, which if not irrational, are at least misguided. Both merely act upon those perceived truths in whatever fashion those truths may dictate. Both consider themselves to be acting in a morally justifiable manner. And being a member of one group doesn’t, in and of itself, preclude one from being a member of the other.

For each group the actions of a few may color the perceptions of the whole, be it violent protesters or pedophiliac priests. But for each group the underlying premise is that my beliefs are superior to your beliefs.

The two groups are in essence the same. I could easily be proven wrong however, if you’re willing to accept that your beliefs aren’t superior to theirs.

How much attention do you want?

If you believe in something, you would perceive it to be the objective truth and that other “truths” are false. If not, why would you believe in it?

Literally everyone will believe that whatever belief they hold are superior. Please use logic. You’re basically saying that every single group, including atheists, is like the Kkk.

Jeez

 

[DeoVindice1863]

For each group the actions of a few may color the perceptions of the whole, be it violent protesters or pedophiliac priests. But for each group the underlying premise is that my beliefs are superior to your beliefs. .

It sounds like your underlying premise is that your beliefs are superior to their “irrational” beliefs.

 

[Bradski]

White supremacists are not bad people just because of that belief. Whether or not the belief is bad is a totally different thing. When you actually study history, you’ll learn about people that were white supremacists but did not want to harm black people. They would view them as children that need taking care of. The same is true with people I’ve met that are racist but not rude to blacks and don’t want to harm them; they just view them as inferior.

Yeah. I’m not a bad racist. I’m one of the good ones. I just don’t want them voting or running a business or sharing a toilet or sitting next to me on the bus or in a restaurant. Certainly don’t want ‘one of them’ marrying my daughter.

What the…?

 

[IWantGod]

Yeah. I’m not a bad racist. I’m one of the good ones. I just don’t want them voting or running a business or sharing a toilet or sitting next to me on the bus or in a restaurant. Certainly don’t want ‘one of them’ marrying my daughter.

Bradski i thought better of you, now i going to have to block you. You are a despicable evil racist.

More seriously, i have met on one or two occasions “nice people” with ignorant ideas regarding other races. Its not totally implausible to think that there exists relatively good people who are ignorant enough to think that whites are an intellectually superior race.

I mean, i’m the most intelligent human being on the face of the planet and i’m black. I can’t stand sitting next to a lesser human much less talking to them on the internet. I do it out of charity. And i’m certainly not going to let a dumb human marry my children.

 

[EnosJadon]

It sounds like your underlying premise is that your beliefs are superior to their “irrational” beliefs.

No, my underlying premise is this…judge men by what they do, not by what they believe.

 

[IWantGod]

No, my underlying premise is this…judge men by what they do, not by what they believe.

But what they believe can be harmful to society.

The question then follows “are their beliefs justified and should we allow them to be marching and vocalizing their views.”

 

[Bradski]

Bradski i thought better of you, now i going to have to block you. You are a despicable evil racist.

More seriously, i have met on one or two occasions “nice people” with ignorant ideas regarding other races. Its not totally implausible to think that there exists relatively good people who are ignorant enough to think that whites are an intellectually superior race.

My mother was a saint. If there is a heaven, she got the good seats. But because she never had the same chances as I did to experience different people and different cultures, she held racist views.

I went to work in Hong Kong just before she died and she told me to stay away from the locals. She didn’t want any ‘slant eyed grandchildren’. It still hurts to tell it. But she would have changed given the chance. You can’t ask for more.

 

[EnosJadon]

But what they believe can be harmful to society.

The question then follows “are their beliefs justified and should we allow them to be marching and vocalizing their views.”

They will do what’s in their nature to do, and you will do likewise. Each of you fighting against a perceived injustice. But if each of us accepted the injustices laid upon us, then there would be no more injustice.

But alas, you can no more lay down your sword, than they can lay down theirs, and so it continues. The never ending struggle to end the suffering that men bring upon themselves.

 

[IWantGod]

But alas, you can no more lay down your sword,

Its funny that you mentioned swords, because my sword is made from the finest rare metals found in middle-earth, forged from the belly of an orc, and delivered onto me by an angel. And inscribed in the blade is the words “ruler of men”.