Are white supremacists bad people?

[hu324b]

As a Catholic, do you find it difficult to forgive the people you are addressing there?

I have nothing to forgive - I am white and do not experience these thing I just see it in others and speak up when i do see it.As a Catholic I have to speak up to reprimand any fellow Catholics who believe in this garbage in hopes they will come to the truth.

I always like to say to all those who hold these racist views and claim to be Catholic - Jesus was a Jew - I had a white supremacist argue with me that Jesus was not a Jew and as you know he lost that argument - never preached his hate garbage to me again.

 

[PelagiathePenit]

Some are misguided, I’m certain. As a person of color, it is difficult for me to see them as harmless or innocent. I will avoid them at all costs. I don’t want to feel or suffer from their hatred.

 

[OneSheep]

Good Morning Aloysium,

Sorry I did not get to this earlier.

Here we are, I imagine now four, old white men discussing racism. How freakin’ open to ridicule is that?!

Hmmm. We’re all white?

White supremacy is a cancer within society and persons holding such feelings. It is imperative that we call them out on this evil. We can also listen to those who that have been its victims, hear their stories and offer hope. But there is nothing to say if it does not include a sorry for not having played a stronger role towards its abolition, given our position in the social fabric. God have mercy on us all.

I agree with you.

As much as you appeal to psychology, you appear to understand nothing of the harm that people do to one another. Perhaps it has been buried so deep, it is no longer detectable. But, what you write here is nothing but a cruel joke, a blaming of the victim, an excuse for evil and enabling of sin.

This was concerning this part I wrote:

It is “turning the cheek” that actually does more to change people’s behaviors. For example, the white person who has a racist ideology might consider a black man worthless, and communicate this. The black man responds “my wife tells me that whenever I try to make a cake, she says, ‘that sorry slap of muck is a cake?’” If this is spoken with a smile, the black person is not only communicating that the white person’s insult has bounced off and had no effect, but he is also inviting the person to share in his humility, he is reaching out to the white person to relate to his own experience with the word “worthless” in the context of a different encounter.

In the case I described above, it is the black man with forgiveness in his heart that is capable of turning things around in the way I described. The person who simply reacts to resentment with more of the same only adds to the resentment that the insulting person already has.

What I wrote by no means was meant to say that the black person who does not do this is to be blamed. The black person who reacts to the racist with anger is doing so with his conscience and natural drive for self-protection. An angry reaction is understandable and in some respects commendable, but is likely to lead to escalation and do nothing to change hearts and minds.

Reaching out to angry people with love and mercy, Aloysium, is to what our Gospel calls us. Does forgiving our enemies enable them? Only if such forgiveness leads to non-engagement.

Note: I am not appealing to Psychology. I did demonstrate that psychologists have essentially confirmed what Jesus calls us to: turning cheek.

 

[Peter_J]

Excuse me OneSheep. I’m asking whether anyone else here feels the same way I do (as per my earlier post). You presumably don’t know if anyone does or not, so respectfully please allow people to speak for themselves in response to my question (or not to respond if they prefer) without interference.

Thank you in advance.

 

[OneSheep]

I have nothing to forgive - I am white and do not experience these thing I just see it in others and speak up when i do see it.As a Catholic I have to speak up to reprimand any fellow Catholics who believe in this garbage in hopes they will come to the truth.

I always like to say to all those who hold these racist views and claim to be Catholic - Jesus was a Jew - I had a white supremacist argue with me that Jesus was not a Jew and as you know he lost that argument - never preached his hate garbage to me again.

Well, if you hold anything against people who hold racist views, then there is something to forgive.

I thank you for correcting that person. We can pray for the person and hope that he has the opportunity to interact in a positive way with those people from races he hates. That way, he will discover their humanity and not think of them as evil or worthless.

Are you familiar with the story of Christian Picciolini? It might be worth looking him up.

 

[OneSheep]

Some are misguided, I’m certain. As a person of color, it is difficult for me to see them as harmless or innocent. I will avoid them at all costs. I don’t want to feel or suffer from their hatred.

It was Fr. Anthony de Mello who stated:

“Anytime you have a negative feeling toward anyone, you’re living in an illusion. There’s something seriously wrong with you. You’re not seeing reality. Something inside of you has to change. But what do we generally do when we have a negative feeling? ‘He is to blame, she is to blame. She’s got to change.’ No! The world’s all right. The one who has to change is you.”

Of course, we can look at those who uphold racism and say, “They are living in an illusion”, and we are quite correct. Those of us who hate racists share in the racist condition, we also have illusions. It sounds like you don’t hate them, so you are not a slave to hatred.

They certainly are not harmless. Innocent? That would depend on the definition. Their positions are understandable given their experience of life. I could have stayed a racist, and been in their shoes if I held resentment against people of a different race.

 

[OneSheep]

Excuse me OneSheep. I’m asking whether anyone else here feels the same way I do (as per my earlier post). You presumably don’t know if anyone does or not, so respectfully please allow people to speak for themselves in response to my question (or not to respond if they prefer) without interference.

Thank you in advance.

My apologies.

Your question is a good one, as the topic may make some feel a bit uneasy. There is a great book: Violence Unveiled by Catholic author Gil Baillie. One of the topics that he brings up is how much culture itself is built upon violence; one example he gave was the revolutionary war. It is safe to say that Western culture in part has a new foundation in hating racists, hating haters, in the post-holocaust world.

I maintain that there is a place in conscience development for “hating haters”. While we can proclaim that we are to “love the sinner, hate the sin”, when we are growing up we experience hurt and condemn the person who caused the harm. We incorporate images and learn to avoid the behaviors and ideologies that are harmful. It seems to me that this is the very reason for the human capacity to hold a grudge in the first place, that holding grudges, at least in the short term, helps form the human conscience.

Jesus does not openly condemn those who hated the Romans. He invited them to “forgive their enemies” and certainly to “forgive those who trespass against us”, and the Romans were surely trespassing! I’m sure there was plenty of racism going on in those days.

I do not think it is likely that you will hear this topic addressed from a western pulpit, though. The very natural hatred of haters is part of our cultural fabric, and the leadership must remain pastoral, so avoids controversy.

Or would you rather not have me address you at all? If so, let me know.

Thanks!

 

[hu324b]

Well, if you hold anything against people who hold racist views, then there is something to forgive.

No I have nothing to forgive it is my responsibility as a Catholic to speak out against hate especially from my fellow Catholics- I will not idly stand by and say nothing and allow it to go on as some Catholics do.

Your saying because I speak up about it I have people to forgive - should I remain silent??? That way I have no one to forgive in your opinion and assessment of my statement.So what are you telling me - be silent and ignore the problem if I speak up about I am now in a state where I need to forgive people because i spoke out against it. I must be a bad person in your view because I speak out against it.

I will not remain silent when I see racism happening I will speak up.

 

[Peter_J]

My apologies.

No problem.

I’m not really sure what the rest of your post has to do with me, so I’m just going to leave it alone.

 

[OneSheep]

I’m not sure if I understand what this thread is for…

This question may be slightly egotistical, but does anyone here else share this ^^ sentiment?

Just so we can keep this in the forefront, Peter. Your question became buried in all my posts. Its a good question. A sample follow up question is “why does this topic seem so surreal?”

 

[OneSheep]

OneSheep;14866629:

Well, if you hold anything against people who hold racist views, then there is something to forgive.

No I have nothing to forgive it is my responsibility as a Catholic to speak out against hate especially from my fellow Catholics- I will not idly stand by and say nothing and allow it to go on as some Catholics do.

Thanks for speaking out!

Your saying because I speak up about it I have people to forgive

Actually, we are only called to forgive people if we hold something against them. If you hold nothing against people who hold racist views, then the calling does not apply. Speak your conscience, friend, you are right to not stand idly by.

I must be a bad person in your view because I speak out against it.

You are a good person, and I appreciate your speaking out.

I will not remain silent when I see racism happening I will speak up.

Thanks!

 

[PelagiathePenit]

It was Fr. Anthony de Mello who stated:

“Anytime you have a negative feeling toward anyone, you’re living in an illusion. There’s something seriously wrong with you. You’re not seeing reality. Something inside of you has to change. But what do we generally do when we have a negative feeling? ‘He is to blame, she is to blame. She’s got to change.’ No! The world’s all right. The one who has to change is you.”

Of course, we can look at those who uphold racism and say, “They are living in an illusion”, and we are quite correct. Those of us who hate racists share in the racist condition, we also have illusions. It sounds like you don’t hate them, so you are not a slave to hatred.

They certainly are not harmless. Innocent? That would depend on the definition. Their positions are understandable given their experience of life. I could have stayed a racist, and been in their shoes if I held resentment against people of a different race.

I respectfully disagree with your Father or perhaps I don’t truly understand what he means by that. Let’s be honest, some people in life aren’t too kind. Surely, I could change myself and learn not to be bothered by them. That doesn’t make them somehow any less kind. Do I know their full life story or why they got that way? NO. I don’t. I cannot prevent white supremacists are an innocent group. NO. They aren’t protesting to save whales, trees, etc. They are a hate group. I don’t think it is wrong to “despise” them or dislike them. I don’t care for them nor will I associate myself with them. I do strongly oppose them nor will I ever feel comfortable in their presence.

 

[OneSheep]

I respectfully disagree with your Father or perhaps I don’t truly understand what he means by that.

What part do you find the most troubling?

Let’s be honest, some people in life aren’t too kind. Surely, I could change myself and learn not to be bothered by them. That doesn’t make them somehow any less kind. Do I know their full life story or why they got that way? NO. I don’t.

Well, I have been unkind. When I am, I try to understand why I have been unkind. When the answer is something like, "I was unkind because I am bad (mean, egotistical, etc., all the negatives), then I know that I have not forgiven myself. There is more to understand. Of course, we have not the means of understanding any specific individual’s way of coming to the place he is, but we can ask ourselves the question, “How would I get that way?”, and if the answer is something like “If I were bad… If I were an egotistical jerk… etc.” then I have not looked deeply enough. All of us can relate to ingroup/outgroup thinking, it is very natural. Add a layer of resentment, and you have the foundation for racist thinking.

I cannot prevent white supremacists are an innocent group. NO. They aren’t protesting to save whales, trees, etc. They are a hate group. I don’t think it is wrong to “despise” them or dislike them. I don’t care for them nor will I associate myself with them. I do strongly oppose them nor will I ever feel comfortable in their presence.

I agree that it is not wrong to despise them or dislike them, and I share your discomfort! I find encountering them unsettling, and I have to stay connected within to remember that they are people just like you and I. It is very easy to go back into condemning mode.

What Fr. De Mello said is that thinking negatively about people poisons us, it is the same as holding a grudge. Jesus calls us to forgive those we hold anything against. Alcoholics Anonymous is the origin of “resentment is when you take the poison and wait for the other person to die.” It doesn’t matter who we resent; the effect is the same.

 

[STT]

Hello CAFers,

I did ponder a bit on whether to put this topic on the Spirituality forum or here. There has been a lot of talk about people who prefer their own race and condemn the outgroup, the people labeled as “racists” and “white supremacists”.

Are such people bad?

Are not all people loved by God, is not God within all his creatures?

Thanks for your responses.

Could you put yourself in their shoes? Perhaps everything is justified from their perspective.

 

[OneSheep]

Could you put yourself in their shoes? Perhaps everything is justified from their perspective.

Yes, I agree that everything is justified from their perspective. I think they want justice, like all groups that resort to hurtful behavior. Yes, I can put myself in their shoes; you also?

 

[STT]

Yes, I agree that everything is justified from their perspective. I think they want justice, like all groups that resort to hurtful behavior. Yes, I can put myself in their shoes; you also?

It is difficult to realize this but yes I succeeded to understand.

 

[OneSheep]

It is difficult to realize this but yes I succeeded to understand.

Wow!

So, next question: did your understanding lessen your zeal to stop racism? I think that people fear a loss of incentive if they let go of their anger/resentment toward those who embrace racism.

Did you once find these people “bad”, and then change your mind about making such a distinction between yourself and them? I’m wondering if you have a shared experience.

 

[STT]

Wow!

So, next question: did your understanding lessen your zeal to stop racism?

Yes, a lot.

I think that people fear a loss of incentive if they let go of their anger/resentment toward those who embrace racism.

Yes, I think so. At the end we are deeply racist without knowing it, we enjoy beauty and hate ugly.

Did you once find these people “bad”, and then change your mind about making such a distinction between yourself and them? I’m wondering if you have a shared experience.

Yes, I was thinking and feeling like that. Consider the case of Hitler, he was of course was a rational person and believed on what he was saying.

 

[phil19034]

What did he mean by “fine people”? That he feels at ease with them?

The event was officially organized to protest the removal of the Robert E. Lee statue.

So in theory, I imagine the President was originally under the impression that some non-racists were there protesting who didn’t want the statue removed due to historical significance (or at least is assuming that not every single person protesting against the removal of the statue was a racist) .

However, the white supremacists obviously took center stage, and supposedly a white supremacist was the one who organized it too.

 

[Peter_J]

Originally Posted by JuanFlorencio

What did he mean by “fine people”?

For what it’s worth, I don’t think I know anyone IRL who agrees with Mr. Trump’s way of thinking.