A
Allegra
Guest
Most likely due to past hurts and/or fear of future hurts.
- Status
O
OneSheep
Guest
Perhaps consciences were formed in such a way that the past hurts created a perception of reality that says “Black people are bad” or “non-whites are bad”? And then, seeing that their own reality is Truth, they seek to spread the truth for the perceived benefit of all fellow whites, in order to prevent future hurts. Does this elaborate correctly what you are saying?
Would you say, also, that a desire for justice is involved? People have a sense of entitlement for their own in-group, right? And when the outgroup seems to be given some kind of advantage, it is seen as unfair or unjust.
Are parts of the underpinnings of supremacy-thinking (1) the human capacity for misperception, (2)the human compulsion to trust only “the tribe”, and with (3) the overlay of the human desire for justice?
Oh, and let’s not forget (4) the human emotional mechanism of reacting to hurt with anger/resentment.
Whaddya think? Can you relate to these observations?
A
AgnosticBoy
Guest
If the moral standard is to prevent physical and emotional harm, then yes, racists are bad. We can get into nuances and say that there are not entirely bad or evil, but at least the part of their actions/words that stem from racism are bad.
If we factor in Christian morals, then everyone is bad. Only God is good. I think Christians can judge racists as being bad if the racists claim to be part of the Church. From there I think it is the duty of the Church to pass judgement and to excommunicate any unrepentant racists.
I agree with you since that is how the Bible describes God.
V
Vera_Ljuba
Guest
Let’s not forget the root of anti-Semitism. The Jews were persecuted as the “killers” of Jesus for many hundreds of years - as declared by Christianity. All those white supremacists are good, God-fearing Christians. So it would be a good idea not to throw around bricks, if you live in a glass house. 
V
Vera_Ljuba
Guest
Let’s not forget the root of anti-Semitism. The Jews were persecuted as the “killers” of Jesus for many hundreds of years - as declared by Christianity. All those white supremacists are good, God-fearing Christians. So it would be a good idea not to throw around bricks, if you live in a glass house.
Not to mention that all religions are inherently divisive. The “us-group” is pitted against the “them-group”. “We” are always right, and “they” are always wrong, since only “we” worship the real God, “they” always worship some false god. It is nice to speak of “love”, but that is only surface - and in this day and age it is the politically correct attitude. Arabs are not “infidels” any more, they are our wayward brothers. The Jews are not “killers of Christ” any more. Of course this modern attitude is praiseworthy. Let’s keep it up, but let’s not forget the roots either.
Not to mention that all religions are inherently divisive. The “us-group” is pitted against the “them-group”. “We” are always right, and “they” are always wrong, since only “we” worship the real God, “they” always worship some false god. It is nice to speak of “love”, but that is only surface - and in this day and age it is the politically correct attitude. Arabs are not “infidels” any more, they are our wayward brothers. The Jews are not “killers of Christ” any more. Of course this modern attitude is praiseworthy.
Let’s keep it up, but let’s not forget the roots either.
B
Bradski
Guest
“Research shows that human beings have a natural proclivity to make distinctions between “us” and “them.” That natural proclivity has a survival value. You want to know who to trust and share resources with, and who is your enemy. From an early age, we show our natural tendency as social creatures to pay attention to the cues that our caretakers pay attention to. And we have very sensitive pattern detectors toward other humans.” berkeleywellness.com/article/are-we-born-racist/?ap=604How Augustinian.
Granted that that fact in isolation doesn’t mean that we necessarily denigrate people we see as different, but racism doesn’t necessarily imply that, although in common useage it would be assumed.
But as we know, it’s a very short step from concluding that someone is different in some way to assuming that they are different in many other ways. Leading to an us-and-them scenario with all that entails. Couple that with learned prejudices and you end up with white supremecists. And the only way you could possibly describe someone who self-identified as such would be either remarkably stupid or bad. Possibly both.
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MJDorry
Guest
Bad? I don’t know. Sinful? Undeniably. I don’t know if racism falls under mortal sin, but I’m inclined to say that as far as the spirit is concerned, it at least skirts the line. I daresay the unrepentant racist will have much 'splaining to do at his or her judgment.Hello CAFers,
I did ponder a bit on whether to put this topic on the Spirituality forum or here. There has been a lot of talk about people who prefer their own race and condemn the outgroup, the people labeled as “racists” and “white supremacists”.
Are such people bad?
Are not all people loved by God, is not God within all his creatures?
Thanks for your responses.
M
MJDorry
Guest
No, we must censure white supremacists precisely when they do profess a belief in God and Christ. They need to know that God does not approve of their misanthropic tendencies. And their belief in superiority over other races does not come from the same place as the persecution of the Jews by Christendom. Which isn’t to say the latter was justifiable, only that it was formulated on religious grounds, not on how much melanin is expressed under sunlight. God-fearing or not, if they do not learn to repent for their hatred, I suspect white supremacists are going to have a difficult time passing through the eye of that needle.Let’s not forget the root of anti-Semitism. The Jews were persecuted as the “killers” of Jesus for many hundreds of years - as declared by Christianity. All those white supremacists are good, God-fearing Christians. So it would be a good idea not to throw around bricks, if you live in a glass house.
Not to mention that all religions are inherently divisive. The “us-group” is pitted against the “them-group”. “We” are always right, and “they” are always wrong, since only “we” worship the real God, “they” always worship some false god. It is nice to speak of “love”, but that is only surface - and in this day and age it is the politically correct attitude. Arabs are not “infidels” any more, they are our wayward brothers. The Jews are not “killers of Christ” any more. Of course this modern attitude is praiseworthy.
A
Allegra
Guest
Sort of. I know a few racists and their racism seems to be rooted in illogical fears and perceived injuries. In their mind, their complaints are legitimate, and aren’t based on color, but objectively on the way that “certain people” behave. They will be the first to admit that not ALL black people (or Asian, Indian, etc) do this, that, or the other, but they don’t seem to understand that their lumping together all negative behavior and calling it the average behavior of a race is racism. Any negative behavior is attributed to the race and any good behavior is claimed as an exception that proves that it isn’t really about race and they could behave better if they wanted to. They justify their obvious racism that way and claim not to be racists, but so many of their problems are always black people’s fault.
“They have to buy their kid’s lunch but black people don’t. Their kid is being picked on at school but the school won’t do anything because the bully is black. Black people broke into their car and busted their windows over pocket change. They have to pay to register and license their car, and of course they’d get pulled over in a heartbeat if they didn’t, but everywhere they look is an uninsured black driver in an unlicensed car. They had to work their way through college while black people get a free ride. They wanted a certain job, but they hired a black person to meet a “quota”. Black people made the neighborhood unsafe. Black people are on drugs. Their taxes are too high because black people refuse to get a job. Black people buy homes and then don’t take care of them, so they ruin the neighborhood. Black people don’t respect the police.” It goes on and on and while each one of these claims may be based on something the racist person actually witnessed or experienced in real life, they can’t seem to get past the idea that even most black people behave that way. The average racist convinces himself that his contempt for people of color is actually not racism because it’s “true”. It’s really not that far of a step from there to skipping over the baloney and admitting that they just hate black people and blame them for all of society’s woes.
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petra22
Guest
People have no control over what race they are born in to… But all should realize that God is the creator of all and He loves all colors. So should we, else I don’t think we will get in to heaven. And I agree with RS about harboring hatred. Can’t get in to heaven with that either. Be very careful if you say “then I don’t want to go to heaven.” It lasts for all eternity… Let your pride go and be humble. And let the hatred go and be loving. Stop calling people names because of their race. Pray for them because of their actions… Gosh, I didn’t mean to preach…
O
OneSheep
Guest
Do you suppose that there is a distinction to be made between existence and occurrence? I see a mixture of objects in your words. For example, you are saying that racists are (existence) bad, but you are referring to harm, actions, and words.
What about the racists themselves, are they bad? If so, are you meaning, “people who do bad are bad”? This ends up being circular, perhaps…
There is a mixed message in the Bible. In the creation story, God sees all He made as good, but there are places where the opposite can be read.
Well, we can certainly see that racism is sin, it is an alienation. The excommunication issue is an interesting one. Unrepentant sinners are already out of communion.
Yes, the Gospel shows us an unconditionally loving and forgiving God.
O
OneSheep
Guest
Yes, well, there is a Christian “root”, but there may be others. Every culture/creed that has a diaspora runs into these problems. They move somewhere when the resources can handle it; then the inevitable lack of resources occurs and other situations arise where the native populace feels trespassed. If the immigrant people quickly integrate, and their cultural distinctions disappear, then it is not much of a problem.Let’s not forget the root of anti-Semitism. The Jews were persecuted as the “killers” of Jesus for many hundreds of years - as declared by Christianity. All those white supremacists are good, God-fearing Christians. So it would be a good idea not to throw around bricks, if you live in a glass house.
The apostles, being Jews, certainly did not promote any hatred.
I share with you the observation that things are getting better, generally speaking.Not to mention that all religions are inherently divisive. The “us-group” is pitted against the “them-group”. “We” are always right, and “they” are always wrong, since only “we” worship the real God, “they” always worship some false god. It is nice to speak of “love”, but that is only surface - and in this day and age it is the politically correct attitude. Arabs are not “infidels” any more, they are our wayward brothers. The Jews are not “killers of Christ” any more. Of course this modern attitude is praiseworthy.
We should not forget the roots, but we can understand and forgive them.
O
OneSheep
Guest
Yes, finding fault, the blaming, is the resentment factor.
Yes, this is the perceived injustice, which can be understood as legitimate.
Are you thinking that the hate comes first? I suppose it can be taught, but what you are describing above are the words of someone resentful, who would benefit from understanding and forgiving.
All of us can relate to feelings of resentment, and all of us need to forgive.
I am wondering if use of the word “bad” to describe anyone is in itself an expression of resentment. Is it a perception, an illusion, that stems from the emotional reaction to i.e. seeing someone neglect a house or experiencing a break-in to ones’ car? These responses are very human, very understandable, right?
Fr. Anthony de Mello said, “If you have a negative feeling toward anyone, you are living in an illusion”.
O
OneSheep
Guest
Well, they could also be possibly be described as having warped perceptions. And are we not all capable of such perceptions? When I label someone as “bad” “stupid” “racist” “egotistical” etc., am I not simply expressing the illusion formed by my own resentment?
In doing so, I am saying “this person is less valuable in some way”. “This person is of negative value.” It is a triggered response, is it not? Everyone who pulls out in front of me in traffic has negative value… until I transcend the emotion, give the benefit of the doubt, try to understand the thinking of the other, etc.
One cannot escape the fact that when one says “that person is bad, stupid (etc)” that one is comparing the other to himself and making a value judgment. And when we make such value judgments, do we do any different than the racist?
I am not talking “moral equivalency”, because such language is attached to the desire for justice. Justice is important, but for Christians (and many atheists, too) justice is mercy, and whatever we do with the goal of justice needs to be done with understanding and forgiveness in our hearts. Would you agree that negative thinking towards people does not reflect understanding and forgiveness?
B
Bradski
Guest
When I say someone is bad, I mean that they have decided to exempt themself from normal, civilised, sociable behaviour. That can mean as little as cutting you off in traffic or joining a white supremicist group.
When I say that someone is stupid, I mean that they are not intelligent enough to realise the implications of their abnormal, unsociable, uncivilised actions.
I don’t think you can class these as value judgements.
I
inocente
Guest
White supremacists are defined as white people who believe they are superior and should dominate non-whites.
That’s not just racism, that’s a political ideology. They are evil people. Doesn’t matter how they got that way, it’s they who willingly choose to hate. Tolerating them is unjust to those they would enslave.
There are biblical precedents:
“Do not even eat with such people.” - 1 Cor 5
“Do not associate with them, in order that they may feel ashamed.” - 2 Thes 3
O
OneSheep
Guest
You may be correct. It depends on the tone of the statements.
What we miss in written communication, of course, is the tone. While the majority of the time people use the words “bad” and “stupid” with a tone of resentment, such is not always the case. For example, when you say that the person has “decided to exempt themself from normal, civilised, sociable behaviour”, you could be saying this with an understanding, forgiving tone, or you could be saying it with a condemning tone. We can understand that the person who ends up embracing white supremacism actually considers his own behavior heroically civil, based on his own experiences and perceptions, yet label his existence as “bad” instead of using terms to describe his mindset. The use of the terms “bad” and “stupid” can indeed be spoken without any judgment of the people whatsoever.
However, as I think you would agree, resentment can actually be taught. Since most of the time those two words have a negative emotional element in their delivery, even a person speaking without value judgment in mind may end up inadvertently convincing another person of negative value of another person.
Do you see what I mean? We are all capable of spreading disvalue of people without even realizing we are doing it. Do you share my observation that people who adhere to racism simply perceive the disvalue as truth (as the result of resentment), and then the rest of us react with disgust and abhorrence, automatically having the same emotions triggered that they are themselves communicating?
Are you familiar with the psychological principal of noncomplementarity?
Here’s article from where you are:
qz.com/736618/researchers-have-found-that-one-of-the-most-powerful-tools-to-diffuse-hate-is-also-the-hardest-to-master-genuine-empathy/
Note: counter-protests with a negative tone are complementary, I’m not sure the article point that out.
Jesus calls people to “turn the cheek”, noncomplementary behavior.
O
OneSheep
Guest
I agree that tolerance is not called for. Do you agree that forgiveness is called for?
Do you agree that when it comes to addressing people we condemn, we don’t want to understand them? I can definitely relate to the statement “It doesn’t matter how they got that way”. That is my own mind wanting justice, wanting to punish, resisting forgiveness.
In those verses, St. Paul was asking Christians to exclude people who want to be part of the community but are behaving badly. So, the verses don’t really apply here. A person who upholds racism wouldn’t want to be in communion with someone of opposite views anyway.
It is “turning the cheek” that actually does more to change people’s behaviors. For example, the white person who has a racist ideology might consider a black man worthless, and communicate this. The black man responds “my wife tells me that whenever I try to make a cake, she says, ‘that sorry slap of muck is a cake?’” If this is spoken with a smile, the black person is not only communicating that the white person’s insult has bounced off and had no effect, but he is also inviting the person to share in his humility, he is reaching out to the white person to relate to his own experience with the word “worthless” in the context of a different encounter.
In the case I described above, it is the black man with forgiveness in his heart that is capable of turning things around in the way I described. The person who simply reacts to resentment with more of the same only adds to the resentment that the insulting person already has.
What do you think of the premise that all people are good, but we are all capable of warped perceptions? Is there anyone we can label as “bad” who in truth is just as human as the rest of us, but has had an unfortunate experience of life that has misguided his eyes?
Note: I am not in any way meaning to insult those who angrily protest racism. Such anger is a sure result of normal, well-formed consciences.
P
Peter_J
Guest
I think Donald Trump already settled this: there were some very fine people on both sides.
Honestly, this whole conversation feels a tad surreal to me.
I
inocente
Guest
I mean there are priorities. The first priority is to show solidarity with those they oppress. We don’t that when we tolerate the ideology. The second is to show their own children they are evil, so the ideology ends with this generation. We can’t do that if we tolerate their ideology. The third is to try to get them to change their own behavior, and they won’t as long as we tolerate it.
I think it’s too easy to say it’s nothing to do with us. We must show them they are not welcome anywhere, not in our homes, not in the mall, not in the street, not in the football stadium, not in schools, not in bars, nowhere.
And I think it’s a bit naive to imagine that in America, at least, they are not sat on the pew next to you. The South went to civil war for white supremacism, and it’s not that long ago there were separate toilets, separate school buses, and that was not due exclusively to non-Christians.
Your heart’s in the right place but guys with swastikas tattooed on their foreheads will take that as proof they are right.
Priorities again. First “Do not associate with them, in order that they may feel ashamed”.
But sure, if all those who spend their time complaining about and trying to change homosexuals and atheists put their effort into trying to change white supremacists instead, that might do more for the Kingdom.
- Status