Are white supremacists bad people?

[Bradski]

For example, when you say that the person has “decided to exempt themself from normal, civilised, sociable behaviour”, you could be saying this with an understanding, forgiving tone, or you could be saying it with a condemning tone. We can understand that the person who ends up embracing white supremacism actually considers his own behavior heroically civil, based on his own experiences and perceptions, yet label his existence as “bad” instead of using terms to describe his mindset. The use of the terms “bad” and “stupid” can indeed be spoken without any judgment of the people whatsoever.

I was using them in a neutral tone. As in: ‘One could say that Joe was stupid/bad’.

Are you familiar with the psychological principal of noncomplementarity?

Oh yeah…anyone who is married or has been in a relationship for any length of time understands this.

 

[Vonsalza]

Oh yeah…anyone who is married or has been in a relationship for any length of time understands this.

 

[Aloysium]

Bradski;14862468:

OneSheep;14861614:

. . .noncomplementarity

? . . .

. . . anyone who is married or has been in a relationship for any length of time understands this.

Here we are, I imagine now four, old white men discussing racism. How freakin’ open to ridicule is that?!

Take another look at the article mentioned above. Reverse the roles of the hypothetical couple; picture it written as a man having mistreating the woman, and she bends, gives in. The minute that point would be reached in the story, the author would lose his female audience. And, this would be because in general, this is the female default position. And, it goes back to the beginning when Eve is told, ". . .Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.” Sexual politics, oestrogen vs testosterone, Mars vs Venus, an angry male voice has too often been followed by a heavy hand; it sits in the human psyche. Miserable the man who hasn’t figured out that he must love his wife.

By no means am I criticizing two of the posters above.

White supremacy is a cancer within society and persons holding such feelings. It is imperative that we call them out on this evil. We can also listen to those who that have been its victims, hear their stories and offer hope. But there is nothing to say if it does not include a sorry for not having played a stronger role towards its abolition, given our position in the social fabric. God have mercy on us all.

So, to the guy who wrote:

. . . If this is spoken with a smile, the black person is not only communicating that the white person’s insult has bounced off and had no effect, but he is also inviting the person to share in his humility, he is reaching out to the white person to relate to his own experience with the word “worthless” in the context of a different encounter. . . it is the black man with forgiveness in his heart that is capable of turning things around in the way I described. The person who simply reacts to resentment with more of the same only adds to the resentment that the insulting person already has. . .

As much as you appeal to psychology, you appear to understand nothing of the harm that people do to one another. Perhaps it has been buried so deep, it is no longer detectable. But, what you write here is nothing but a cruel joke, a blaming of the victim, an excuse for evil and enabling of sin.

 

[OneSheep]

Good Morning inocente,

I mean there are priorities. The first priority is to show solidarity with those they oppress. We don’t that when we tolerate the ideology.

I like that priority. Thanks for pointing that out.

The second is to show their own children they are evil, so the ideology ends with this generation. We can’t do that if we tolerate their ideology.

Unfortunately, this strategy can backfire. Adolescents have a tendency to distinguish themselves from their parents. So, for example, the parents teach their children “people who do drugs are evil”, and the adolescent encounters some people who do drugs, and finds the users “very cool”, the child learns that his parents have it all wrong, and finds drug use as a perfect means of distinguishing himself. This can also happen with white supremacy groups.

The question on this thread is “are they bad(evil) people?”, but this is not meant to say we should tolerate their ideology. There is an important side issue about how to address these people.

The third is to try to get them to change their own behavior, and they won’t as long as we tolerate it.

Exactly. But if we approach these people with condemnation, we will only get the same in return. Christ calls us to a different way to encounter, in my reading of the Gospel.

I think it’s too easy to say it’s nothing to do with us. We must show them they are not welcome anywhere, not in our homes, not in the mall, not in the street, not in the football stadium, not in schools, not in bars, nowhere.

Jesus welcomed Roman soldiers, who generally persecuted His brethren.

And I think it’s a bit naive to imagine that in America, at least, they are not sat on the pew next to you. The South went to civil war for white supremacism, and it’s not that long ago there were separate toilets, separate school buses, and that was not due exclusively to non-Christians.

Your heart’s in the right place but guys with swastikas tattooed on their foreheads will take that as proof they are right.

There is a special lesson about the miracle of loaves and fishes. Not to say that there was not something supernatural going on, but it was customary not to eat in front of others unless they are also eating, and if there are people around without food you must share, so people in the crowd did not take food out of their cloaks because they feared they did not have enough for everyone. When Jesus brought out food, what was in the cloaks of others had to emerge, for to hide your own food while others brought theirs out was also impolite.

So, if we bring food to the table, others will also bring out theirs. We reap what we sow. The racists already sow condemnation. If we return condemnation with more of the same, it is a never-ending cycle. Jesus calls for noncomplementary behavior, He calls for understanding and forgiveness. This is not an naive approach, right?

Priorities again. First “Do not associate with them, in order that they may feel ashamed”.

Non-association and non-confrontation will not solve the problem, correct?

Thanks for continuing the discussion! Great viewpoints!

 

[Peter_J]

This may or may not be on topic (admittedly I’m not sure if I understand what this thread is for) but I think it is worth noting that a Washington Post-ABC News poll found that 9% of Americans believe holding white supremacist or neo-Nazi views is acceptable.

 

[Wesrock]

Very good points, Wesrock. We shouldn’t have to mince words.

Are white supremicists bad people? If so, can you relate to being thought of as a bad person? i.e., is it possible that anyone ever thought of you as bad?

Is the devil a bad person?

In either case, we’re not talking about the being as such being evil, but the moral positions, choices, and actions.

Yes, I’m sure people have thought of me as a bad person. Christians because I once supported abortion and gay marriage. Secularists because I now renounce those things. I’ve been called all kinds of base things for my views. But we don’t live in a relativistic world, even though the people in it do hold many different views. There are real moral truths, and people can hold real morally evil positions.

 

[Bradski]

This may or may not be on topic (admittedly I’m not sure if I understand what this thread is for) but I think it is worth noting that a Washington Post-ABC News poll found that 9% of Americans believe holding white supremacist or neo-Nazi views is acceptable.

Yikes! Do you have a link for that poll?

Edit: No need - it’s all over the news:

As noted, 9 percent overall call it acceptable to hold neo-Nazi or white supremacist views, while 83 percent call this unacceptable, leaving 8 percent with no opinion. Seventy-two percent feel strongly that it’s unacceptable. abcnews.go.com/Politics/28-approve-trumps-response-charlottesville-poll/story?id=49334079

That is not credible…

 

[Peter_J]

Yikes! Do you have a link for that poll?

Edit: No need - it’s all over the news:

As noted, 9 percent overall call it acceptable to hold neo-Nazi or white supremacist views, while 83 percent call this unacceptable, leaving 8 percent with no opinion. Seventy-two percent feel strongly that it’s unacceptable. abcnews.go.com/Politics/28-approve-trumps-response-charlottesville-poll/story?id=49334079

That is not credible…

It’s scary. In any case, I don’t think threads like this one help.

I also think it’s a little scary that

Public Policy Polling found that
43 percent of people feel high school students should be allowed to wear confederate flags to school, while only 28 percent felt students should be able to sport the Pride flag. A whopping 57 percent of those polled felt that high schoolers shouldn’t be allowed to wear gay flags to school.

• from Poll Finds Conservative Americans More Offended By Rainbow Flags Than Confederate Flags

 

[OneSheep]

I was using them in a neutral tone. As in: ‘One could say that Joe was stupid/bad’.

I believe you; I know you (by your posts) to be an objective observer.

Do you agree, though, that the vast majority of the time when someone says “those people are stupid/bad”, there is a tone of resentment, a bit of condemnation? To illustrate, if Dad and son are watching TV, and on the news is shown the aftermath of a terrorist bombing in Europe, done by “Muslim extremists”, and the Dad says “Muslims are bad people”, when he really only meant “some Muslim people do bad things, just like some people of every religion”, do you see the likelihood that the son ends up feeling a bit of resentment (prejudice) toward Muslim people?

Oh yeah…anyone who is married or has been in a relationship for any length of time understands this.

Hopefully!

 

[OneSheep]

This may or may not be on topic (admittedly I’m not sure if I understand what this thread is for) but I think it is worth noting that a Washington Post-ABC News poll found that 9% of Americans believe holding white supremacist or neo-Nazi views is acceptable.

I think we can both agree that a 0% on that would be the goal. This thread is basically about discerning a Christian approach to reaching that goal. Condemnation is a reflex action; mercy, understanding and forgiveness are more difficult, but are more sure to lead to real change.

 

[OneSheep]

In either case, we’re not talking about the being as such being evil, but the moral positions, choices, and actions.

Well, if I may say, then yours is I think the more enlightened position. If you are able to look at all those who have such harmful and misguided moral positions, choices and actions as not bad people, but as good people who do not know what they are doing, then they are already people we can relate to, because none of us completely knows what he or she is doing.

This is a enormous contrast with those who are the subject of this thread. Those who adhere to racist ideology truly believe that the Other is of negative value, disposable, rightly persecuted.

Yes, I’m sure people have thought of me as a bad person. Christians because I once supported abortion and gay marriage. Secularists because I now renounce those things. I’ve been called all kinds of base things for my views. But we don’t live in a relativistic world, even though the people in it do hold many different views. There are real moral truths, and people can hold real morally evil positions.

Yes, they can hold quite morally evil positions, I agree. I think that you would also agree that you would like all people to not find you bad, stupid, egotistical, worthless, etc., that you would prefer to see you as a real person. If others were to understand rather than condemn (think of you as bad), then they would have their eyes open to your value.

This is why I think that “doing unto others” means, in this instance, to seek to understand rather than use a negative label. Do you agree with this?

 

[rose_kelly]

This is why I think that “doing unto others” means, in this instance, to seek to understand rather than use a negative label. Do you agree with this?

No.
Racism, hatred and bigotry should always be condemned.

Silence and tolerance communicates acceptance.

 

[inocente]

Good Morning inocente,

Good afternoon.

*Unfortunately, this strategy can backfire. Adolescents have a tendency to distinguish themselves from their parents. So, for example, the parents teach their children “people who do drugs are evil”, and the adolescent encounters some people who do drugs, and finds the users “very cool”, the child learns that his parents have it all wrong, and finds drug use as a perfect means of distinguishing himself. This can also happen with white supremacy groups.

The question on this thread is “are they bad(evil) people?”, but this is not meant to say we should tolerate their ideology. There is an important side issue about how to address these people.*

Good point about adolescent rebellion but I think this is probably like abusive parents tending to have been abused themselves by their own parents. Bullies pass on their behavior when the children are too young to understand it’s wrong (as in Ex 34, “he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth”) so I think anything which helps them make a break is good.

I got no problem telling them they are evil unless and until they realize the error of their ways and change.

*Exactly. But if we approach these people with condemnation, we will only get the same in return. Christ calls us to a different way to encounter, in my reading of the Gospel.

Jesus welcomed Roman soldiers, who generally persecuted His brethren. *

We’ll have to disagree on that then. Condemn their behavior, not them, but unless we condemn their behavior, what right have we to say they’re wrong?

*There is a special lesson about the miracle of loaves and fishes. Not to say that there was not something supernatural going on, but it was customary not to eat in front of others unless they are also eating, and if there are people around without food you must share, so people in the crowd did not take food out of their cloaks because they feared they did not have enough for everyone. When Jesus brought out food, what was in the cloaks of others had to emerge, for to hide your own food while others brought theirs out was also impolite.

So, if we bring food to the table, others will also bring out theirs. We reap what we sow. The racists already sow condemnation. If we return condemnation with more of the same, it is a never-ending cycle. Jesus calls for noncomplementary behavior, He calls for understanding and forgiveness. This is not an naive approach, right?

Non-association and non-confrontation will not solve the problem, correct?*

Can’t really see how or why we should forgive them until they change. Yes a loving approach pays dividends with normal people, but these guys are not normal. It’s a bit like trying to use love to get Hannibal Lecter to see it our way. Best of luck but I’m thinking it just won’t work.

Thanks for continuing the discussion! Great viewpoints!

Thanks , it’s an interesting topic.

Btw from what I’ve seen, there is a growing understanding of the neuroscience of racism, and hopes that it can be cured. For instance research in Spain on overcoming subconscious fears using virtual reality:

bbc.com/news/science-environment-23709836
journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0174965

But I think probably white supremacism goes far deeper and is not so easy.

 

[OneSheep]

No.
Racism, hatred and bigotry should always be condemned.

Silence and tolerance communicates acceptance.

I agree, Rose. This thread is not an evaluation of racism, hatred, and bigotry, but a discussion concerning those who express and hold those conditions.

Are they bad people?

Or, are they people like you and I that have experienced life in a different way, with a different set of illusions? As St. Paul said, none of us sees perfectly.

 

[Peter_J]

Silence and tolerance communicates acceptance.

Well it depends. Silence is sometimes the most appropriate response. E.g. when people post alt-right comments on CAF, presumably they want their comments to receive as much attention as possible; I generally try not to respond to, or even read, such comments.

On the other hand, when the President of the United States kept talking about “blame on both sides” and so on, while keeping silent about the fact that one side was worse, that was a terrible equivocation (which has even been condemned by some GOP leaders).

 

[OneSheep]

Good afternoon.

Good point about adolescent rebellion but I think this is probably like abusive parents tending to have been abused themselves by their own parents. Bullies pass on their behavior when the children are too young to understand it’s wrong (as in Ex 34, “he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth”) so I think anything which helps them make a break is good.

I got no problem telling them they are evil unless and until they realize the error of their ways and change.

We’ll have to disagree on that then. Condemn their behavior, not them, but unless we condemn their behavior, what right have we to say they’re wrong?

Well, this is the sticky part, though. If you are telling them that they are evil, how do you do this without expressing condemnation of them as people.? Really, is there any more condemning thing we can say about a person than to call them evil?

Can’t really see how or why we should forgive them until they change. Yes a loving approach pays dividends with normal people, but these guys are not normal. It’s a bit like trying to use love to get Hannibal Lecter to see it our way. Best of luck but I’m thinking it just won’t work.

Another great point, but I’m pretty sure the Lecter character had a pathology, an inability to empathize normally, which happens of course. It may be unwise to express to a person that you forgive, but it always does us good to forgive people from the heart. Jesus asks us to forgive with this criteria:

Mark 11:25New International Version (NIV)

25 And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive them, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.”

Jesus invites us to take a step toward holiness. How loving is our Father? Does he love unconditionally? Well, our answer is going to be a matter of projection. If I refused to forgive one of my own children for taking on racist leanings, then it is very likely that I would surmise that the Father would not love or forgive me for having a racist ideology. In fact, if I hold any condition of loving someone, then it is almost impossible to believe that God would love me if I held the same condition.

In my own view, it is not wrong to love people conditionally, that is not what I read from the Gospel, but like I said, Jesus invites us to a deeper holiness.

Thanks , it’s an interesting topic.

Btw from what I’ve seen, there is a growing understanding of the neuroscience of racism, and hopes that it can be cured. For instance research in Spain on overcoming subconscious fears using virtual reality:

bbc.com/news/science-environment-23709836
journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0174965

But I think probably white supremacism goes far deeper and is not so easy.

I was brought up with a racist mentality. Through prayer, I was healed. I wanted to overcome. If I was personally condemned for having a racist mentality, there might have been some resistance on my part, especially if I had hurtful race-related experiences in my past.

For a person who holds white-supremacist views, to overcome he will have to forgive those people who have offended him in the past. Yes, it is difficult. He may not see a reason to forgive, or thinks that he will not forgive until the offender repents. If he holds those views, he is stuck, just like all of us who hold onto grudges.

That’s what racism is, right? The kind of racism that involves anger and condemnation of groups of people is a big grudge.

 

[Peter_J]

(admittedly I’m not sure if I understand what this thread is for)

This question may be slightly egotistical, but does anyone here else share this ^^ sentiment?

 

[hu324b]

Yes and they are mentally challenged and wallow in ignorance because you have to be a complete idiot to believe the garbage they peach.

Go salute your idiot dead leader Hitler and you may as well salute the devil while your at it if you practice this stuff.

 

[OneSheep]

This question may be slightly egotistical, but does anyone here else share this ^^ sentiment?

I hope you can see my sincerity when I say that this thread is essentially about how we are to approach those who have racist views. We are going to reap what we sow.

If we condemn people, we do not express forgiveness. We can condemn actions and beliefs without saying that they are bad for holding them, but to do so honestly we actually need to forgive people, and come to understand that all of us are just as capable of not knowing what we are doing.

We are called to forgive our enemies, and understanding plays a huge role in such forgiveness.

Do you find the question of this thread counter-productive in some way?

 

[OneSheep]

Yes and they are mentally challenged and wallow in ignorance because you have to be a complete idiot to believe the garbage they peach.

Go salute your idiot dead leader Hitler and you may as well salute the devil while your at it if you practice this stuff.

As a Catholic, do you find it difficult to forgive the people you are addressing there?