Are women still considered in a "state of subjection?"

[LucyLight]

In the military men are required to do a lot more pushups and situps and run the run a lot faster. This is because women are physically the weaker sex. The Catholic Church teaches that the opposite sexes are equal in dignity and complimentary to each other but not the same. The Church teaches that each sex has their strengths and weaknesses, and that’s why men and women go so well together in marriage.

The objection was not over saying that women have less muscle strength. It was all the other stuff.

 

[St_Francis]

If the husband wanted to leave the home should there also be a discussion? My husband and I are both adults. He doesn’t ask for my permission to leave the home and I don’t ask for his. However, if I know that leaving the house would upset him I probably wouldn’t go and vise versa. The husband is not the parent. If a husband told his wife she could not leave the home that would be controlling and abusive. Unless of course there was wild bears roaming around in the backyard or the vickings where coming…then I would think he was being sweet.

I think what’s wrong with this thinking is that you’re treating the wife like a child. Btw, a parent would give up their life for their child as well. All that means is that you love them. As a parent I know better than my child and that is why they have to obey me for their own protection. A husband does not know better than his wife. Just because he would give his life up for his wife does not mean that I should obey him. Treating a wife like a child is not giving her equal value and respect its demeaning.

You are lucky not to live in a place with bears or Vikings. But if for some reason you ended up in a place like that, it sounds like you would then be happy to obey your husband who would be protecting you.

 

[Nilla_Bean]

Has anyone explored the beautifully different ways husbands and wives are called to submit to one another?

I feel personally that a wife’s call to submit is to be a helpmate to her husband, to obey his wills that are created for the good of herself and her family, even if she doesn’t always want to. To forgo, at times, her personal opinions when it is not what is best.

I feel a husbands call to submission is to lay down selfish desires for what will better his family. He may not want to sacrifice for her, but out of love, he does. It’s not esy to guide and to lead, and it’s not easy to follow, either. I do believe wholeheartedly that the husband is the head of the family, and the wife is his loving supporter, but supports him from his side, not from beneath him.

 

[ekk1]

reading through these posts makes me wonder… are there any distinguished female Catholic theologians who have written on the topic of the role of women in the catholic church? thank you in advance for any suggestions. i am more interested in the feminine perspective.

 

[FaithBuild18]

I think Aquinas was right. I also do not think women are in any way a “weaker” sex. As others have said, we simply have different roles.

I’m most surprised that this is coming from a son and not a daughter. Is he in college by any chance?

 

[FaithBuild18]

Has anyone explored the beautifully different ways husbands and wives are called to submit to one another?

I feel personally that a wife’s call to submit is to be a helpmate to her husband, to obey his wills that are created for the good of herself and her family, even if she doesn’t always want to. To forgo, at times, her personal opinions when it is not what is best.

I feel a husbands call to submission is to lay down selfish desires for what will better his family. He may not want to sacrifice for her, but out of love, he does. It’s not esy to guide and to lead, and it’s not easy to follow, either. I do believe wholeheartedly that the husband is the head of the family, and the wife is his loving supporter, but supports him from his side, not from beneath him.

Beautiful my friend, beautiful.

 

[St_Francis]

Has anyone explored the beautifully different ways husbands and wives are called to submit to one another?

I feel personally that a wife’s call to submit is to be a helpmate to her husband, to obey his wills that are created for the good of herself and her family, even if she doesn’t always want to. To forgo, at times, her personal opinions when it is not what is best.

I feel a husbands call to submission is to lay down selfish desires for what will better his family. He may not want to sacrifice for her, but out of love, he does. It’s not esy to guide and to lead, and it’s not easy to follow, either. I do believe wholeheartedly that the husband is the head of the family, and the wife is his loving supporter, but supports him from his side, not from beneath him.

You have put this very well, bringing all the different aspects together.

 

[LemonAndLime]

There is a *principle *in Catholic teaching that the wife submits to the husband, and the husband loves his wife and be willing to give up his life for her.

You are asking about *personal particulars. *Each marriage is different. In your parents’ next-door neighbor’s family, it may have been the husband who made those decisions that your mother made, because the husband was better at it, knew more, or was more decisive.

Now, let’s look at the *principle, *and not the current politically correct ideas and all that other temporary stuff. Overall, what we have here is a situation which God has mandated, in which the husband has to be willing to sacrifice everything, up to and including his life, for his wife. All that his wife has to do is cooperate in his protecting her and giving up his life for her.

Do you *really *think that this principle means that the wife is instructed to be a doormat for a husband who is instructed to be a domineering tyrant? It certainly doesn’t look that way to me.

So if it is a principle that the wife submits to the husband, what does that say about the woman’s ability to make decisions or to be a leader? That I think is the issue. Why does it have to be said?

Not that that’s a bad thing we need to get rid of. The word “submit” I object to. If it works for the couple for one to submit to each other, fine. But how does it work in real life?

 

[Ubenedictus]

Good that’s all I’m saying that the submission is mutual. But if you say that wives should submit to their husbands and say nothing of the husband submitting to the wife then you are saying something different which is how I interpreted it.

i totally agree

 

[Ubenedictus]

If the husband wanted to leave the home should there also be a discussion? My husband and I are both adults. He doesn’t ask for my permission to leave the home and I don’t ask for his. However, if I know that leaving the house would upset him I probably wouldn’t go and vise versa. The husband is not the parent. If a husband told his wife she could not leave the home that would be controlling and abusive. Unless of course there was wild bears roaming around in the backyard or the vickings where coming…then I would think he was being sweet.

I think what’s wrong with this thinking is that you’re treating the wife like a child. Btw, a parent would give up their life for their child as well. All that means is that you love them. As a parent I know better than my child and that is why they have to obey me for their own protection. A husband does not know better than his wife. Just because he would give his life up for his wife does not mean that I should obey him. Treating a wife like a child is not giving her equal value and respect its demeaning.

i think you missed the quotation mark on the word ‘leave’. It is not talking about going outside it is talking about ‘leaving home’. i will let you figure it out.
Ubenedictus

 

[GaryTaylor]

Has anyone explored the beautifully different ways husbands and wives are called to submit to one another?

I feel personally that a wife’s call to submit is to be a helpmate to her husband, to obey his wills that are created for the good of herself and her family, even if she doesn’t always want to. To forgo, at times, her personal opinions when it is not what is best.

I feel a husbands call to submission is to lay down selfish desires for what will better his family. He may not want to sacrifice for her, but out of love, he does. It’s not esy to guide and to lead, and it’s not easy to follow, either. I do believe wholeheartedly that the husband is the head of the family, and the wife is his loving supporter, but supports him from his side, not from beneath him.

Leading sometimes means following the best advice on the table. I fail to see looking past your post where there can be anything but “communion” and mutual respect.

I would say for sure man has a role to “protect” simply because of God given attributes, this too must be weighed in the heart and conscious through a Christ centered life, and here man failed as in the Garden for example. And to a large extent today.

Communion doesn’t equate to always easy, but it always equates to “equal”. It requires a give and take relationship, and one must be willing beforehand to give more than they receive. Not easy in this age to comprehend.

 

[St_Francis]

So if it is a principle that the wife submits to the husband, what does that say about the woman’s ability to make decisions or to be a leader? That I think is the issue. Why does it have to be said?

Not that that’s a bad thing we need to get rid of. The word “submit” I object to. If it works for the couple for one to submit to each other, fine. But how does it work in real life?

In almost every one of my posts on this thread, I have brought up the corollary prinicple of the husband loving his wife as Christ loved His Church for Which He laid down His life! The two principles go together–they cannot be separated, and yet so many people look at one and totally ignore the fact that the other even exists!

 

[Nilla_Bean]

Leading sometimes means following the best advice on the table. I fail to see looking past your post where there can be anything but “communion” and mutual respect.

I would say for sure man has a role to “protect” simply because of God given attributes, this too must be weighed in the heart and conscious through a Christ centered life, and here man failed as in the Garden for example. And to a large extent today.

Communion doesn’t equate to always easy, but it always equates to “equal”. It requires a give and take relationship, and one must be willing beforehand to give more than they receive. Not easy in this age to comprehend.

I’m afraid I disagree on your opinion of equal, then. I’m more than happy to concede decisions to my husband even when they’re things I don’t exactly want. i find very seldom is there even a situation serious enough that it requires my contrary (name removed by moderator)ut. I don’t always want to, but when I think about it, most of the time my “better” opinion is just the one that would make me happier. My husband loves me, knows me, and I trust him to make these decisions on our behalf. Are there large issues I weigh into? Yes. It is my duty to make sure my husband stays in prayerful obedience to HIS role as well.

 

[LemonAndLime]

In almost every one of my posts on this thread, I have brought up the corollary prinicple of the husband loving his wife as Christ loved His Church for Which He laid down His life! The two principles go together–they cannot be separated, and yet so many people look at one and totally ignore the fact that the other even exists!

Okay, but that should go without saying. The husband should love his wife and the wife should love her husband.

So, again, why does it have to be said that the man is the “head” of the family?

 

[TrueLight]

So, again, why does it have to be said that the man is the “head” of the family?

Because he is.

 

[LemonAndLime]

Because he is.

Not in my marriage he won’t. Gender does not define a leading personality.

 

[St_Francis]

Okay, but that should go without saying. The husband should love his wife and the wife should love her husband.

So, again, why does it have to be said that the man is the “head” of the family?

Because Eve ate of the forbidden fruit.

 

[LucyLight]

Okay, but that should go without saying. The husband should love his wife and the wife should love her husband.

So, again, why does it have to be said that the man is the “head” of the family?

I think its just antiquated language. It used to be a common belief that men were smarter than women because their brains are larger. It would then follow that the husband knew best and should lead the family. We know now that this is not true(bigger people aren’t smarter than smaller people). Now it just seems to be poetic language that is taken seriously by mostly protestants. Pope John Paul says that there is a order but its one of love( the man loves the woman first and she loves him back). Some people are naturally submissive and feel cared for if there spouse takes the lead role which is fine. However, that is not the formula that Catholics as a whole are required to follow. What we are required to do is to both submit to each other.

 

[Nilla_Bean]

Because he is.

Popular with everyone? No. Do i agree? wholeheartedly! To me, and I know this isn’t everyone’s viewpoint, but it seems so…peaceful. these roles of life seem so perfect and natural to me and bring such a sense of duty, love, and peace.

I think perhaps, when it comes to “controversial” wording, and how someone interprites it, it can be a point of confusion. as in “Following it the way I believe seems perfect. Like, to the CORE perfect, so how could anyone else view it otherwise?”

I can understand why some women balk at the words “submission” and “obedience,” but at times, I think it’s important to remember that your adamant rejection of their base meaning can seem harsh and almost judgmental to someone who does follow it that way. This is especially true when talking in terms of what the Church teaches and wants. Is the wife who submits lovingly to the strength of her husband, and sees herself, happily and contentedly as his helpmate and follower, following the faith as she understands it any less than a woman who sees it differently, or vice versa? I should think not.

 

[LucyLight]

Popular with everyone? No. Do i agree? wholeheartedly! To me, and I know this isn’t everyone’s viewpoint, but it seems so…peaceful. these roles of life seem so perfect and natural to me and bring such a sense of duty, love, and peace.

I think perhaps, when it comes to “controversial” wording, and how someone interprites it, it can be a point of confusion. as in “Following it the way I believe seems perfect. Like, to the CORE perfect, so how could anyone else view it otherwise?”

I can understand why some women balk at the words “submission” and “obedience,” but at times, I think it’s important to remember that your adamant rejection of their base meaning can seem harsh and almost judgmental to someone who does follow it that way. This is especially true when talking in terms of what the Church teaches and wants. Is the wife who submits lovingly to the strength of her husband, and sees herself, happily and contentedly as his helpmate and follower, following the faith as she understands it any less than a woman who sees it differently, or vice versa? I should think not.

So you dont believe that the submission is mutual? Your ideal is the husband leading the wife and the wife obeying the husband. This bothers me because it sounds like a parent /child relationship to me. Of course you couch this all with lots of love and other nicities but lets just get to the real issue here.

btw, I respect how you want to live your marriage with your husband. The problem I have is when you claim that this is how the church is instructing us or wants us to live.