Are works necessary? And thief on the cross

[Ignatius]

Long story short:- We got to a point in the discussion where she asked are works necessary for salvation in the Catholic Church.

I’m thinking yes. So I said yes but that I would check with you guys.

Then she hit me with the thief on the cross.

I’m sorry I’m not very good at this. Leading someone into Catholicism is very difficult, can someone help please.

So, she thinks dying on a cross isn’t a work?

@MacQ
.

Paul sepaking about “works” of the law;.
**
Romans 2:6-8 For he will render to every man according to his works:** [7] to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; [8] but for those who are factious and do not *obey *the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.(cf. 2:13: “the doers of the law who will be justified”)

The problem with a lot of Protestants is that they don’t read the Sacred Scriptures thoroughly and so come to erroneous conclusions. For example many cite Romans 2:23, but only a few verses earlier Paul gives the foundation of the later verses when he writes that God will render to every man according to his works.

Here are a few more examples just from Romans :
**Romans 2:6-7 **For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; (cf. 2:8; 2:10)

**Romans 2:13 **For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. (cf. James 1:22-23; 2:21-24)

Romans 3:22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction;

Romans 3:31 Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

Romans 6:17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed,

Romans 8:13 for if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body you will live. (cf. 2 Cor 11:15)

**Romans 8:28 **We know that in everything God works for good with those who love him, who are called according to his purpose.

Romans 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel; for Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?”

Romans 15:17-18 In Christ Jesus, then, I have reason to be proud of my work for God.

We can plainly see that not condemning good works (“we were made for good works that we should walk in them”) but those of the Mosaic Law.

 

[MacQ]

@MacQ

Sorry so late to the thread.
Nobody can deal with their own sins. That is the reason why Jesus Christ came. He came to live the perfect life we couldn’t and pay for the sins we couldn’t pay for. That is to seek and save the lost. No bible believing Christian believes he can deal with his sins. Bible believing Christians simply believe Romans 3:23 that “All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” We believe that Jesus Christ paid for our sin because we can not. There is nothing xenophobic about our belief. There are simply two kinds of people that exist, those who are children of God by His grace through faith in Jesus Christ to His glory, and those who are children of wrath that believe in a god that tells them they can undo their own sin by some kind of ritual thereby robbing Christ of His glory and giving it to themselves.

Sorry…I know of NO ONE in the latter category. Certainly no Catholic.

 

[rfournier103]

@MacQ

Sorry so late to the thread.
Nobody can deal with their own sins. That is the reason why Jesus Christ came. He came to live the perfect life we couldn’t and pay for the sins we couldn’t pay for. That is to seek and save the lost. No bible believing Christian believes he can deal with his sins.

True. Our sins are forgiven by God, through Jesus Christ. For you to believe that Catholics who know what they are talking about would believe otherwise is foolish and insulting. Would you mind capitalizing the word “Bible” next time? K, thanks.

Bible believing Christians simply believe Romans 3:23 that “All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” We believe that Jesus Christ paid for our sin because we can not.

Do you honestly believe that Catholics do not believe this? OF COURSE WE ALL SIN! OF COURSE WE ALL FALL SHORT!!! Just what do you think we believe, sir? I think someone did you a tremendous disservice.

There is nothing xenophobic about our belief. There are simply two kinds of people that exist, those who are children of God by His grace through faith in Jesus Christ to His glory,

okay…

and those who are children of wrath that believe in a god that tells them they can undo their own sin by some kind of ritual thereby robbing Christ of His glory and giving it to themselves.

What ritual are you talking about? The Sacrament of Pennance?

 

[TxGodfollower]

From St. Paul’s letter to the Ephesians 2:8-10 (emphasis mine)

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God not because of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

We are saved by grace

We are saved through faith

We are saved for good works.

Seems to cover it all.

Yep, saved by Grace through Faith that results in works. Not saved by works.

Well played.

I just don’t get Protestant theology. Maybe I’m over-simplifying it by seeing it as “believe in Jesus and you’ll get to heaven.” Of course, too many Catholics believe “I’m a good person, so I’ll get to heaven.” Each one individually are equally deficient, in my opinion. You need both, don’t you?

Faith is a must, so the Protestants have THAT right; but it doesn’t end there, does it? Can I get to heaven if I believe, yet lead a scandalous life? No. To think so is absurd.

As I have said before; our good deeds are the evidence of our faith - not the key to salvation in and of itself. An atheist may lead a saintly life, but we know from scripture that he will still have some serious explaining to do when he meets Christ.

Christ paid the price for sin, past present and future. Christ’s live should shine through us, but it is a symptom of our change, not a requirement. In theory, a person could believe and accept Christ as savior, be the worst human ever, and still go to Heaven. I think 1 Corinthians 3:15 shows this. Lack of works makes us lose rewards in Heaven, but we’re still in.

We got our ticket by accepting Christ’s Sacrifice, but our account in Heaven is built by our actions here. Its very possible to get to Heaven and find your account in Heaven with a $0.00 balance.

 

[Duane1966]

Yep, saved by Grace through Faith that results in works. Not saved by works.

Christ paid the price for sin, past present and future. Christ’s live should shine through us, but it is a symptom of our change, not a requirement. In theory, a person could believe and accept Christ as savior, be the worst human ever, and still go to Heaven. I think 1 Corinthians 3:15 shows this. Lack of works makes us lose rewards in Heaven, but we’re still in.

We got our ticket by accepting Christ’s Sacrifice, but our account in Heaven is built by our actions here. Its very possible to get to Heaven and find your account in Heaven with a $0.00 balance.

You do realize that in the parable of the sheep and the goats, both the sheep and the goats are believers? The difference is the sheep believed and did something (hmmmm, I wonder what we could call that something? ), and the goats believed and did nothing.

 

[fhansen]

Hi guys

I need your help. For the first time I feel that I might have a good opportunity to lead someone into the Catholic faith.

It’s a lady raised in a Baptist community.

Long story short:- We got to a point in the discussion where she asked are works necessary for salvation in the Catholic Church.

I’m thinking yes. So I said yes but that I would check with you guys.

Then she hit me with the thief on the cross.

I’m sorry I’m not very good at this. Leading someone into Catholicism is very difficult, can someone help please.

We’re expected to do the best we can with what we’re given. That’s the meaning of the Parable of the Talents, for one. Also have her read Matt 25:31-46. The thief did all he could with the opportunity: grace and time, that he had. If he’d lived longer, more would’ve been expected. Check out Luke 12:48

 

[guanophore]

Yep, saved by Grace through Faith that results in works. Not saved by works.

Christ paid the price for sin, past present and future. Christ’s live should shine through us, but it is a symptom of our change, not a requirement. In theory, a person could believe and accept Christ as savior, be the worst human ever, and still go to Heaven. I think 1 Corinthians 3:15 shows this. Lack of works makes us lose rewards in Heaven, but we’re still in.

We got our ticket by accepting Christ’s Sacrifice, but our account in Heaven is built by our actions here. Its very possible to get to Heaven and find your account in Heaven with a $0.00 balance.

This view is not scriptural and is not consistent with what the Apostles believed and taught.:nope:

 

[Seraphim73]

Why would anyone even ask this question much less argue it?

 

[fhansen]

Why would anyone even ask this question much less argue it?

Have to ask the Reformers that question.

 

[RBushlow]

Christ paid the price for sin, past present and future.

@TxGodfollower
So, since Christ paid the price for all sin, past, present and future, do you then believe that everyone is saved?
If not, do they have to do some work like say the sinners prayer, making an alter call and accepting Jesus into their heart as their personal savior to lay hold of this forgiveness?
That would be a works salvation.

Also, where in the Bible does is the sinners prayer? Where does it say that making an alter call is how one is saved? Where does the Bible say that we can continue to commit sin in the future because they are already forgiven.

 

[rfournier103]

@TxGodfollower
So, since Christ paid the price for all sin, past, present and future, do you then believe that everyone is saved?

Great point.

If not, do they have to do some work like say the sinners prayer, making an alter call and accepting Jesus into their heart as their personal savior to lay hold of this forgiveness?
That would be a works salvation.

Another great point.

Also, where in the Bible does is the sinners prayer? Where does it say that making an altar call is how one is saved? Where does the Bible say that we can continue to commit sin in the future because they are already forgiven.

And that makes THREE great points.

I wonder if some of the people who take an anti-Catholic position here even read the things they post… They want us to be wrong SO BADLY that they will dream up all kinds of things to discredit Christ’s Universal Church.

If TxGodfollower were right, wouldn’t that be awesome? We could sin all we want and be assured of Heaven!

 

[Duane1966]

If TxGodfollower were right, wouldn’t that be awesome? We could sin all we want and be assured of Heaven!

Look out world. Here I come!:whacky:

Does that mean Jesus’ saying “go and sin no more” can be changed to “go and sin some more”?

 

[styrgwillidar]

The greatest commandment is to love God with all our hearts, our mind, our soul. The second greatest is to love our neighbor as ourself.

Christ said if we love Him we will keep His commandments- and He commanded us to love one another.

In Christ’s description of the judgement, the goats are condemend for their sins of omission because they showed the goats did not love God. They did not see Him in their fellow man.

Works do not save us, but love of God is essential to accepting Christ. We can not say we have accepted Christ without loving our fellow man- works flow from faith. As James said, works without faith is dead. The works do not save us, the love of God inherent in motivating us to do them is our acceptance of Christ’s sacrifice on our behalf and to be one with Him in it.

Read through the parables at the number of them that mention the things that fail to produce being condemned to fire. True love of God is evidenced in our love for our fellow and the good works that flow from that love, you can not say you love God and accept His sacrifice without it having motivated you to do good. That realization could come on you deathbed, like the theif on the cross-- He reached out to God, recognized Him, and received the gift/wages Christ stated He would give equally to those who worked long in the vineyard or just a short time.

It ain’t the works, it’s the love/faith. But you can’t have one without the other.

 

[Ignatius]

@TxGodfollower
So, since Christ paid the price for all sin, past, present and future, do you then believe that everyone is saved?
If not, do they have to do some work like say the sinners prayer, making an alter call and accepting Jesus into their heart as their personal savior to lay hold of this forgiveness?
That would be a works salvation.

Also, where in the Bible does is the sinners prayer? Where does it say that making an alter call is how one is saved? Where does the Bible say that we can continue to commit sin in the future because they are already forgiven.

:yup:I look forward to seeing how TXGodfollower answers these very poignant questions.

 

[rfournier103]

Typical post-and-run for threads like these… I really wonder if we’ll ever see him here again or if he’ll read our replies.

 

[Fr_of_Jazz]

Hi guys

I need your help. For the first time I feel that I might have a good opportunity to lead someone into the Catholic faith.

It’s a lady raised in a Baptist community.

Long story short:- We got to a point in the discussion where she asked are works necessary for salvation in the Catholic Church.

I’m thinking yes. So I said yes but that I would check with you guys.

Then she hit me with the thief on the cross.

I’m sorry I’m not very good at this. Leading someone into Catholicism is very difficult, can someone help please.

(1) Faith in Jesus that saves given by grace includes in its essence belief in the teaching of Jesus.
(2) Jesus’ teaching includes moral content.
(3) Therefore, faith that saves includes intending (at least) to live the way He taught.

He did say “reform you lives and believe in the Gospel.” To believe Him and in Him, therefore, has to include reforming your life.

 

[Christian50]

@TxGodfollower

So, since Christ paid the price for all sin, past, present and future, do you then believe that everyone is saved?
If not, do they have to do some work like say the sinners prayer, making an alter call and accepting Jesus into their heart as their personal savior to lay hold of this forgiveness?
That would be a works salvation.

Also, where in the Bible does is the sinners prayer? Where does it say that making an alter call is how one is saved? Where does the Bible say that we can continue to commit sin in the future because they are already forgiven.

Hello RBushlow and Rfournier103,

How to Read the New Testament by Etienne Charpentier

Nihil obstate: Father Anton Cowan
Imprimatur: Monsignor John Crowley, VG Westminster, 28 May 1985

Quote: “There is ONE CENTRAL QUESTION here: how can we become righteous and be SAVED?

We are NOT justified by what we DO (works, observing law) but by FAITH IN CHRIST.

Salvation is NOT a matter of achieving but RECEIVING IT FREELY from God hands, in faith.” End quote. Emphasize mine.

To tell the truth, I don’t know for what reason anyone want to discredit Christ’s Universal Church.
As you see above RBushlow and Rfournier, Christ’s Universal Church is perfectly correct.

Catholic Encyclopedia. The predestination of the elect.
Quote: “Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, has been irrevocably fixed from all eternity.
Nor could it be otherwise. For if it were possible that a predestined individual should after all be cast into hell or that one not predestined should in the end reach heaven, then God would have been mistaken in his foreknowledge of future events; He would no longer be omniscient.” End quote.

St. Thomas Aquinas, In his Summa Theologiae he wrote:
Quote: [P]erseverance is called he abiding in good to the end of life.
And in order to have this perseverance man . . . needs the divine assistance guiding him and guarding him against the attacks of the passions . . .
And hence after anyone has been justified by grace, he still needs to beseech God for the aforesaid gift of perseverance, that he may be kept from evil till the end of his life (ST IIa:109:10)

This same teaching was infallibly taught by the Council of Trent after the Protestant Reformation.

Quote: Trent’s Decree of Justification, canon 16, speaks of “That Great and Special Gift of Final Perseverance,” and chapter 13 of the decree speaks of “the gift of perseverance of which it is written:
‘He who perseveres to the end shall be saved [Matt. 10:22, 24:13],’
Which cannot be obtained from anyone except from Him who is able to make him who stands to stand [Rom. 14:4].” End quote.

This special grace is a Divine assistance, an infallible protection to keep the recipients from evil till the end of their life, and ensures them to die in the state of grace.

According to Church teaching only those who are the elects to Heaven, predestined to “Final salvation/glory” are the recipients of God’s “Great and Special Gift of Final Perseverance.”

As you see above RBushlow and Rfournier, only those who are predestined to heaven, assured of salvation and Heaven and they are protected!

God bless.

Christian

 

[Fr_of_Jazz]

OK, so let’s take a look at your claims about what the CC teaches.

Hello RBushlow and Rfournier103,

How to Read the New Testament by Etienne Charpentier

Nihil obstate: Father Anton Cowan
Imprimatur: Monsignor John Crowley, VG Westminster, 28 May 1985

Quote: “There is ONE CENTRAL QUESTION here: how can we become righteous and be SAVED?

We are NOT justified by what we DO (works, observing law) but by FAITH IN CHRIST.

Salvation is NOT a matter of achieving but RECEIVING IT FREELY from God hands, in faith.” End quote. Emphasize mine.

Context.
Where in the book is this quote located? Is it commenting on an assertion of St. Paul in one of his letters? It certainly is not a dogmatic treatise on Catholic theology.

Catholic Encyclopedia. The predestination of the elect.
Quote: “Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, has been irrevocably fixed from all eternity.
Nor could it be otherwise. For if it were possible that a predestined individual should after all be cast into hell or that one not predestined should in the end reach heaven, then God would have been mistaken in his foreknowledge of future events; He would no longer be omniscient.” End quote.

You must not have read the whole article in the Catholic Encyclopedia. Or you are parroting talking points given you by someone or some book.

Did you notice this section in the article?
“He who would place the reason of predestination either in man alone or in God alone would inevitably be led into heretical conclusions about eternal election. . . . The principal question then is: Does the natural merit of man exert perhaps some influence on the Divine election to grace and glory? If we recall the dogma of the absolute gratuity of Christian grace, our answer must be outright negative. To the further question whether Divine predestination does not at least take into account the supernatural good works, the Church answers with the doctrine that heaven is not given to the elect by a purely arbitrary act of God’s will, but that it is also the reward of the personal merits of the justified.”

Merit and works for the CC fall under the latter category: supernatural good works. They are not faithless, graceless efforts at self-redemption.

Let’s see about the quote from St. Thomas now.

St. Thomas Aquinas, In his Summa Theologiae he wrote:
Quote: [P]erseverance is called he abiding in good to the end of life.
And in order to have this perseverance man . . . needs the divine assistance guiding him and guarding him against the attacks of the passions . . .
And hence after anyone has been justified by grace, he still needs to beseech God for the aforesaid gift of perseverance, that he may be kept from evil till the end of his life (ST IIa:109:10)

Agreed, this is a perfectly fine definition of final perseverance. It exactly comports with the latter category above. . . in the encyclopedia article you cited.

Let’s see about Trent next.

 

[Fr_of_Jazz]

Let’s see about Trent next.

This same teaching was infallibly taught by the Council of Trent after the Protestant Reformation.

Quote: Trent’s Decree of Justification, canon 16, speaks of “That Great and Special Gift of Final Perseverance,” and chapter 13 of the decree speaks of “the gift of perseverance of which it is written:
‘He who perseveres to the end shall be saved [Matt. 10:22, 24:13],’
Which cannot be obtained from anyone except from Him who is able to make him who stands to stand [Rom. 14:4].” End quote.

Canon 16 reads in full: “If anyone says that he will for certain, with an absolute and infallible certainty, have that great gift of perseverance even to the end, unless he shall have learned this by a special revelation, let him be anathema.”

This says the exact opposite of OSAS or assurance that I am one of the elect in a fatalistic scheme of unconditional double predestination.

Chapter 12 spells this out: “No one, moreover, so long as he lives this mortal life, ought in regard to the sacred mystery of divine predestination, so far presume as to state with absolute certainty that he is among the number of the predestined, as if it were true that the one justified either cannot sin any more, or, if he does sin, that he ought to promise himself an assured repentance.
For except by special revelation, it cannot be known whom God has chosen to Himself.”

Chapter 13 also says the same when read a whole.

This special grace is a Divine assistance, an infallible protection to keep the recipients from evil till the end of their life, and ensures them to die in the state of grace.

Trent denies and anathematizes OSAS or assurance that I am one of the elect in a fatalistic scheme of unconditional double predestination.

According to Church teaching only those who are the elects to Heaven, predestined to “Final salvation/glory” are the recipients of God’s “Great and Special Gift of Final Perseverance.”

Again the CC denies, rejects and anathematizes OSAS or assurance that I am one of the elect in a fatalistic scheme of unconditional double predestination.

Curiously your research into the teaching of the Catholic Church on this subject didn’t take to the article in the Catholic Encyclopedia entitled “Final Perseverance.” I would be interested in your explaining that omission.

Perhaps we’ll find the reason in what the article said . . . yep, sure enough. Here’s what it says.
“Canon 22 [in the Decree on Justification] . . . by teaching that the justified cannot persevere without a special help of God, but with it can persevere, not only condemns both the naturalism of the Semipelagians and the false supernaturalism of the Reformers but also clearly implies that the power of perseverance is neither in the human will alone nor in God’s grace solely, but in the combination of both, i.e., Divine grace aiding human will, and human will co-operating with Divine grace.”

This is what the Church has consistently taught.

I’m curious though. Where did you get this bit of out-of-context (mis)information? Is this how they teach you to preach to Catholics? Certainly you never read the material you cite. Do you see how whoever gave you this stuff on Catholicism is insulting your intelligence?

 

[TxGodfollower]

:yup:I look forward to seeing how TXGodfollower answers these very poignant questions.

You do realize that in the parable of the sheep and the goats, both the sheep and the goats are believers? The difference is the sheep believed and did something (hmmmm, I wonder what we could call that something? ), and the goats believed and did nothing.

In the parable there is nothing about belief from either the sheep or the goats.

@TxGodfollower
So, since Christ paid the price for all sin, past, present and future, do you then believe that everyone is saved?
If not, do they have to do some work like say the sinners prayer, making an alter call and accepting Jesus into their heart as their personal savior to lay hold of this forgiveness?
That would be a works salvation.

Also, where in the Bible does is the sinners prayer? Where does it say that making an alter call is how one is saved? Where does the Bible say that we can continue to commit sin in the future because they are already forgiven.

Everyone can be saved (1 Timothy 2:4, 2 Peter 3:9), but not all will. Only those that accept Christ’s sacrifice will be saved (Acts 16:31, John 3:16, Mark 16:16, Ephesians 2:8-9). Some passages have some action required (such as Romans 10:9-10) of confessing your faith or being baptized.

Also, Christ had to pay for sins past, present and future. If He only paid for sins that were already committed before He died, then all of us today are doomed.

I wonder if some of the people who take an anti-Catholic position here even read the things they post… They want us to be wrong SO BADLY that they will dream up all kinds of things to discredit Christ’s Universal Church.

If TxGodfollower were right, wouldn’t that be awesome? We could sin all we want and be assured of Heaven!

Look out world. Here I come!:whacky:

Does that mean Jesus’ saying “go and sin no more” can be changed to “go and sin some more”?

Romans 6:1 “What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?”

Romans 6:12 “Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.”

Romans 6:14-15 “For sin shall not have dominion over you, for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid!”

We should not sin, Paul makes that quiet clear. Our goal should be to live as Christ lived, perfectly. But we are still washed in the blood of the Lamb, bought with a price, and belong to the Lord. “And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.” John 10:28. No man can get himself or anyone else out of Christ.