Are works necessary? And thief on the cross

[steve_b]

Hi guys

I need your help. For the first time I feel that I might have a good opportunity to lead someone into the Catholic faith.

It’s a lady raised in a Baptist community.

Long story short:- We got to a point in the discussion where she asked are works necessary for salvation in the Catholic Church.

I’m thinking yes. So I said yes but that I would check with you guys.

Then she hit me with the thief on the cross.

I’m sorry I’m not very good at this. Leading someone into Catholicism is very difficult, can someone help please.

She obviously is not thinking about what a crucifixion is, nor what transpired between the 3.

1. 
   *]The good thief rebuked the other thief for not recognizing Jesus as God. His pain level at this point has to be over the top. Yet he has the presence of mind to evangelize AND show his faih in Jesus
   *]next he recognized his wrongs. he said we deserve punishment but Jesus was an innocent man.
   *]then the thief asks Jesus to remember him when He entered His kingdom.
   
   There is soooooo much theology in his words and actions, it would fill up pages of text.

 

[guanophore]

She obviously is not thinking about what a crucifixion is, nor what transpired between the 3.

1. 
   *]The good thief rebuked the other thief for not recognizing Jesus as God. His pain level at this point has to be over the top. Yet he has the presence of mind to evangelize AND show his faih in Jesus
   *]next he recognized his wrongs. he said we deserve punishment but Jesus was an innocent man.
   *]then the thief asks Jesus to remember him when He entered His kingdom.
   
   There is soooooo much theology in his words and actions, it would fill up pages of text.

1. 
   I propose an different # 3, and that the thief not only took responsibility for his wrongs, but he defended Christ against the other criminal who was reviling him. This rebuke from the cross shows that his heart was with Christ.

 

[letsbefrank]

I have long wanted to offer this little analogy on the faith/works question. Suppose I have a life long friend who is a very successful investor and he tells me that a certain commodity is a very good buy today. Now I have complete faith in what he tells me and totally trust him in this matter. Six months later that commodity is four times the price of when my friend said it was a very good buy. Am I now any better off financially? No, I didn’t do the “work”. I didn’t buy any of it.
It may be an over simplification, but for me it works. What held me back from the investment? Doubt, however small, it was doubt. That is the surest thing I can identify which is holding me back from any good “work” in my life. I think that my actions in any moment of my life are a pretty good measure of my faith in that same moment.

 

[Christian50]

Hello Fr of Jazz,

In general I agree with most of what you have written Fr of Jazz in your post.
I feel we still have two areas of disagreement.

We already dealt with those who will end up in hell and with those Bible verses which gives us warnings and instructions in order not to end up in hell.

In this post I deal only with those who are predestined to heaven and with those Bible verses which are connected with this subject.

I believe the two following THEOLOGICAL facts:

a. God’s “Great and Special Gift of Final Perseverance” is given to the predestined to heaven at their baptism.
God’s “Great and Special Gift of Final Perseverance” is in operation in the life of the predestined to heaven BETWEEN baptism and the end of their life.

MY REFERENCES:

Quote: St. Thomas Aquinas, In his Summa Theologiae he wrote:
[P]erseverance is called he abiding in good TO the end of life.
And in order to have this perseverance man . . . needs the divine assistance guiding him and guarding him against the attacks of the passions . . .
And hence after anyone has been justified by grace, he still needs to beseech God for the aforesaid gift of perseverance, that he may be kept from evil TILL the end of his life (ST IIa:109:10)

This same teaching was infallibly taught by the Council of Trent after the Protestant Reformation.

A Tiptoe Through TULIP by James Akin

Quote: Trent’s Decree of Justification, canon 16, speaks of “That Great and Special Gift of Final Perseverance,” and chapter 13 of the decree speaks of “the gift of perseverance of which it is written:
‘He who perseveres to the end shall be saved [Matt. 10:22, 24:13],’
Which cannot be obtained from anyone except from Him who is able to make him who stands to stand [Rom. 14:4].”

Aquinas said it always saves a person because of the kind of grace it is; Molina said it always saves a person because God only gives it to those whom he knows will respond to it. But the effect is the same: The gift of final perseverance always works.

Catholics even have a special name for the GRACE God gives these people: “the gift of final perseverance.”

The Church formally teaches that there is a gift of final perseverance. [43] Aquinas (and even Molina) said this grace always ensures that a person will persevere. [44] Aquinas said, “Predestination [to final salvation] most certainly and infallibly takes effect.”

Aquinas said the gift of final perseverance is “the abiding IN GOOD to the END of life.
In order to have this perseverance man…needs the divine assistance guiding and guarding him against the attacks of the passions…after anyone has been justified by grace, he still needs to beseech God for the aforesaid gift of perseverance, that he may be kept from evil till the end of life. End quote

SUMMARY

Aquinas said the gift of FINAL PERSEVERANCE is “the abiding in good TO the END OF LIFE.”
The gift of perseverance, “that he may be kept from evil TILL the END OF LIFE.”

It is a theological fact: The “GRACE” God gives the predestined to heaven “THE GIFT OF FINAL PERSEVERANCE” is in co-operation between God’s “GRACE” and the predestined.

This “GRACE” “THE GIFT OF FINAL PERSEVERANCE” given at baptism.
The predestined to heaven co-operate with this “GRACE” “THE GIFT OF FINAL PERSEVERANCE” until the END OF THEIR LIFE.

Outcome of this co-operation:
The predestined to heaven FROM baptism abiding IN GOOD to the END OF LIFE.
Abiding in good to the END OF LIFE means:
Stay in the state of grace to the END OF LIFE and then die in the state of grace.

The other THEOLOGICAL fact:
b. God’s gift of ETRNAL LIFE is given to the predestined to heave at their baptism.

Every predestined to heaven has ETRNAL LIFE from baptism throughout all eternity.
From their baptism they do NOT commit even one mortal sin in their entire earthly life.

Continued

 

[Christian50]

PROOF:

“MOST ASSUREDLY, I say to you, he who hears My Word and believes in Him who sent Me has EVERLASTING LIFE, and shall NOT come into judgment, but has passed from DEATH to LIFE.” (John 5:24)

The above statement refers only to the predestined to heaven.
Only the predestined to heaven keep believing the Word of God from the point of receiving God’s gift of faith and baptism to throughout all eternity.

For the above reason:
Only they are the recipients of God’s gift of everlasting life at their baptism.

CONCLUSION (Jerusalem Bible)
“I have written all this to you so that you who believe in the name of the Son of God may be SURE that you HAVE eternal life.” (1 John 5:13)

The above statement again refers only to the predestined to heaven.
Only the predestined to heaven keep believing in the name of the Son of God from the point of receiving God’s gift of faith and from their baptism, throughout all eternity.

For the above reason:
Only they are the recipients of God’s gift of everlasting life at their baptism.

According to biblical evidence, the following statements are theological facts:

a. God’s “GRACE” (“Great and Special Gift of Final Perseverance”) is given to the predestined to heaven at their baptism.

b. God’s gift of ETRNAL LIFE is given to the predestined to heaven at their baptism.
Everlasting life is a life which is continues into eternity, being CONTINUALLY in the state of grace throughout all eternity.

The above theological facts are in perfect harmony with John 5:24; 1 John 5:13; etc.

If the predestined to heaven could not be protected even with their co-operation with Divine grace from committing mortal sins, that would change the meanings of the following Bible verses as follows:

John 5:24
…. in the earth they have PERIODICAL LIFE and DEATH, and in heaven they will have ETERNAL LIFE.

1 John 5:13 (Jerusalem Bible)
I have written all this to you so that you who believe in the name of the Son of God you maybe sure that ON THE EARTH you have PERIODICAL LIFE and DEATH and in heaven you will have eternal life.

The above of course is unthinkable. Yet if the predestined to heaven would commit mortal sins, the unthinkable would be reality, and the biblical messages as it is written in the Bible in John 5:24; 1 John 5:13; etc. would be heresies.

c. The predestined to heaven, in combination of both, Divine “GRACE” (“Great and Special Gift of Final Perseverance”) aiding human will, and human will co-operating with Divine “GRACE” (“Great and Special Gift of Final Perseverance”) the predestined to heaven are protected from committing mortal sins.

The key to understand John 5:24; 1 John 5:13; etc. is in [CCC 600].
“To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of “predestination”, he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace.”

Those who are totally rejecting God’s grace, for the reason of their rejection, the end is hell.

God has also seen, some people co-operating with His grace some period of their life and finally they rejected His grace.
They have periodical life and death and when they fully reject the grace of God the end is hell.

Those individuals who are co-operating with God’s grace until the end of their life, have been predestined to heaven.
At their baptism God has given them His irrevocable gift (Rom.11:29) of everlasting life (Rom.6:23; John 5:24; 1 John 5:13; etc.).

Everlasting life is a life which continues into eternity, being CONTINUALLY in the state of grace throughout all eternity.

Those who are predestined to heaven they don’t commit even one mortal sin in their entire Christian life. – How could they? They have God’s irrevocable gift of everlasting life from their baptism.

This above is the very reason (addressed to the predestined to heaven) 1 John 5:13 states (Jerusalem Bible): “I have written all this to you so that you who believe in the name of the Son of God may be SURE that you HAVE eternal life.”
John 5:24; John 3:18; etc. also reinforces the above statement.

God bless

Christian

 

[Fr_of_Jazz]

(1) Go to the bottom of the bottom left area of the screen. Look for “DISPLAY.” Click on “Threaded Mode.” That way you can enable yourself to respond directly to my posts by clicking on “QUOTE.” Highlight the section you want to respond to, then in the tools bar click on the little icon for a quote that looks like a comic book callout each time you want to quote something I say in order to respond to it.

(2) Then you have to develop the discipline–here the teacher in me is coming out–of responding directly to the content of my posts which may include objections, opposing facts, opposing arguments, etc.

So far, for the most part, you have not done this. You have restated or rephrased the same points, ignored objections, and seldom responded directly to my concerns about your line of reasoning and use of primary sources.

There are a whole series of objections I have raised that are still standing since you have not directly discussed them.

Please go back now to my last response, quote the objections/concerns I have, and show why they are not the case or why you agree. You’ll note I took the time to respond directly to each and every point you made.

Then I can respond to this post of yours. Right now I have little idea how much of what I say you have even considered or addressed.

 

[steve_b]

PROOF:

“MOST ASSUREDLY, I say to you, he who hears My Word and believes in Him who sent Me has EVERLASTING LIFE, and shall NOT come into judgment, but has passed from DEATH to LIFE.” (John 5:24)

The above statement refers only to the predestined to heaven.
Only the predestined to heaven keep believing the Word of God from the point of receiving God’s gift of faith and baptism to throughout all eternity.

For the above reason:
Only they are the recipients of God’s gift of everlasting life at their baptism.

CONCLUSION (Jerusalem Bible)
“I have written all this to you so that you who believe in the name of the Son of God may be SURE that you HAVE eternal life.” (1 John 5:13)

The above statement again refers only to the predestined to heaven.
Only the predestined to heaven keep believing in the name of the Son of God from the point of receiving God’s gift of faith and from their baptism, throughout all eternity.

For the above reason:
Only they are the recipients of God’s gift of everlasting life at their baptism.

According to biblical evidence, the following statements are theological facts:

a. God’s “GRACE” (“Great and Special Gift of Final Perseverance”) is given to the predestined to heaven at their baptism.

b. God’s gift of ETRNAL LIFE is given to the predestined to heaven at their baptism.
Everlasting life is a life which is continues into eternity, being CONTINUALLY in the state of grace throughout all eternity.

The above theological facts are in perfect harmony with John 5:24; 1 John 5:13; etc.

If the predestined to heaven could not be protected even with their co-operation with Divine grace from committing mortal sins, that would change the meanings of the following Bible verses as follows:

John 5:24
…. in the earth they have PERIODICAL LIFE and DEATH, and in heaven they will have ETERNAL LIFE.

1 John 5:13 (Jerusalem Bible)
I have written all this to you so that you who believe in the name of the Son of God you maybe sure that ON THE EARTH you have PERIODICAL LIFE and DEATH and in heaven you will have eternal life.

The above of course is unthinkable. Yet if the predestined to heaven would commit mortal sins, the unthinkable would be reality, and the biblical messages as it is written in the Bible in John 5:24; 1 John 5:13; etc. would be heresies.

c. The predestined to heaven, in combination of both, Divine “GRACE” (“Great and Special Gift of Final Perseverance”) aiding human will, and human will co-operating with Divine “GRACE” (“Great and Special Gift of Final Perseverance”) the predestined to heaven are protected from committing mortal sins.

The key to understand John 5:24; 1 John 5:13; etc. is in [CCC 600].
“To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of “predestination”, he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace.”

Those who are totally rejecting God’s grace, for the reason of their rejection, the end is hell.

God has also seen, some people co-operating with His grace some period of their life and finally they rejected His grace.
They have periodical life and death and when they fully reject the grace of God the end is hell.

Those individuals who are co-operating with God’s grace until the end of their life, have been predestined to heaven.
At their baptism God has given them His irrevocable gift (Rom.11:29) of everlasting life (Rom.6:23; John 5:24; 1 John 5:13; etc.).

Everlasting life is a life which continues into eternity, being CONTINUALLY in the state of grace throughout all eternity.

Those who are predestined to heaven they don’t commit even one mortal sin in their entire Christian life. – How could they? They have God’s irrevocable gift of everlasting life from their baptism.

This above is the very reason (addressed to the predestined to heaven) 1 John 5:13 states (Jerusalem Bible): “I have written all this to you so that you who believe in the name of the Son of God may be SURE that you HAVE eternal life.”
John 5:24; John 3:18; etc. also reinforces the above statement.

God bless

Christian

Not to butt in, I have only one comment.

Unless God has told a person directly, even if He predestined that person for heaven from the beginning, they wouldn’t know until it actually happens. Even Paul didn’t presume perseverence till heaven, and he was inspired by the HS to write his letters of instruction. [1 Corinthians 9:27](1 - - Bible Gateway Corinthians 9:27&version=RSVCE)

 

[Christian50]

(1) Go to the bottom of the bottom left area of the screen. Look for “DISPLAY.” Click on “Threaded Mode.” That way you can enable yourself to respond directly to my posts by clicking on “QUOTE.” Highlight the section you want to respond to, then in the tools bar click on the little icon for a quote that looks like a comic book callout each time you want to quote something I say in order to respond to it.

(2) Then you have to develop the discipline–here the teacher in me is coming out–of responding directly to the content of my posts which may include objections, opposing facts, opposing arguments, etc.

So far, for the most part, you have not done this. You have restated or rephrased the same points, ignored objections, and seldom responded directly to my concerns about your line of reasoning and use of primary sources.

There are a whole series of objections I have raised that are still standing since you have not directly discussed them.

Please go back now to my last response, quote the objections/concerns I have, and show why they are not the case or why you agree. You’ll note I took the time to respond directly to each and every point you made.

Then I can respond to this post of yours. Right now I have little idea how much of what I say you have even considered or addressed.

Hello Fr of Jazz,

I like your suggestion to respond directly to your posts.

I will contact you Fr of Jazz after 25-11-14.

God bless.

Christian

 

[Christian50]

Not to butt in, I have only one comment.

Unless God has told a person directly, even if He predestined that person for heaven from the beginning, they wouldn’t know until it actually happens. Even Paul didn’t presume perseverence till heaven, and he was inspired by the HS to write his letters of instruction. [1 Corinthians 9:27](1 - - Bible Gateway Corinthians 9:27&version=RSVCE)

Hello Steve,

I believe, when we interpret Bible verses, we should NEVER contradict one Bible verse with another Bible verse and we should NEVER separate them from their contexts.

1. If we read Rom.8:28-39; Phil.1:20-26, we could conclude Paul was absolutely sure about his everlasting life in heaven.
2. If we study 1 Cor.9:27 in context, we learn the HS through Paul teaching us HOW TO BE GOOD AMBASSADORS of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul wasn’t concerned to disqualify himself from everlasting life in heaven.

If anyone studies the whole chapter learn; Paul’s concern was; he might disqualify himself to successfully teach the gospel.

1. If we study John 3:18; John 5:24; 1 John 5:13 in context, we learn the HS through John teaching us THE WAY WE CAN BE SAVED and THE WAY WE CAN KNOW we have everlasting life.
2. We can be absolutely sure; the Holy Spirit didn’t try to discredit John’s teaching in John 3:18; John 5:24; 1 John 5:13 with Paul’s teaching in 1 Cor.9:27.

In above, Paul’s teaching and John’s teaching is NOT even the same subject. So, how could the HS discredit John’s teaching with Paul’s teaching?

We should never try to discredit one Bible verse with another Bible verse.

John 5:24;
“MOST ASSUREDLY, I say to you, he who hears My Word and believes in Him who sent Me has EVERLASTING LIFE, and shall NOT come into judgment, but has passed from DEATH to LIFE.”

1 John 5:13; (Jerusalem Bible)
“I have written all this to you so that you who believe in the name of the Son of God may be SURE that you HAVE eternal life.”

To doubt is the greatest insult to the Divinity.[St Padre Pio]

Steve, if we not suppose to believe the above Bible verses, could you please tell us: What was the reason of the Holy Spirit to inspire John to write the above Bible verses?

God bless.

Christian

 

[guanophore]

I believe, when we interpret Bible verses, we should NEVER contradict one Bible verse with another Bible verse and we should NEVER separate them from their contexts.

This is very Catholic of you!

1. If we read Rom.8:28-39; Phil.1:20-26, we could conclude Paul was absolutely sure about his everlasting life in heaven.

No, “we” would not. Only those who have been separated from the Apostolic faith through the Reformation would do such a thing.

28 We know that in everything God works for good with those who love him, who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified. Romans 8

Paul is talking in the past tense here of those who have gone before him in the faith, such as those mentioned in Heb. 11.

20 as it is my eager expectation and hope that I shall not be at all ashamed, but that with full courage now as always Christ will be honored in my body, whether by life or by death. 21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 If it is to be life in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me. Yet which I shall choose I cannot tell. 23 I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better. 24 But to remain in the flesh is more necessary on your account. 25 Convinced of this, I know that I shall remain and continue with you all, for your progress and joy in the faith, 26 so that in me you may have ample cause to glory in Christ Jesus, because of my coming to you again. Phillippians 1

Paul is talking about hope. As you have accurately noted, one must not contradict one verse with another - a correct interpretation includes all the verses together.

Later in the same letter he writes:

12 Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. 13 Brethren, I do not consider that I have made it my own; but one thing I do, forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let those of us who are mature be thus minded; and if in anything you are otherwise minded, God will reveal that also to you. 16 Only let us hold true to what we have attained. Phil 3:12

Paul knows that he is still in the process of traveling to his eternal reward, and though he has hope and confidence, he does not make any assumptions. He writes that considering that we have not yet “arrived” is the “mature” position.

1. If we study 1 Cor.9:27 in context, we learn the HS through Paul teaching us HOW TO BE GOOD AMBASSADORS of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul wasn’t concerned to disqualify himself from everlasting life in heaven.

Oh. He said that, but he didn’t really mean it?

If anyone studies the whole chapter learn; Paul’s concern was; he might disqualify himself to successfully teach the gospel.

Yes. By falling into sin, and failing to be united with his heavenly inheritance. For Paul, preaching the Gospel was his divine calling, and he said “woe to me if I do not preach!”. Which means if he disqualified himself from his life mission…woe!

1. If we study John 3:18; John 5:24; 1 John 5:13 in context, we learn the HS through John teaching us THE WAY WE CAN BE SAVED and THE WAY WE CAN KNOW we have everlasting life.

Yes, God wants us to have confidence in each and every day that we are alive in the Vine. This does not mean that we are to be presumptuous about tomorrow.

1. We can be absolutely sure; the Holy Spirit didn’t try to discredit John’s teaching in John 3:18; John 5:24; 1 John 5:13 with Paul’s teaching in 1 Cor.9:27.

Yes.

In above, Paul’s teaching and John’s teaching is NOT even the same subject. So, how could the HS discredit John’s teaching with Paul’s teaching?

There are many things that can be learned about salvation, even when the immediate topic is something else.

We should never try to discredit one Bible verse with another Bible verse.

So…it seems like that is what you are doing. You are stringing together a collection of verses that ignore the fact that we can fall from a state of grace.

John 5:24;
“MOST ASSUREDLY, I say to you, he who hears My Word and believes in Him who sent Me has EVERLASTING LIFE, and shall NOT come into judgment, but has passed from DEATH to LIFE.”

Indeed yes. One day at a time!

1 John 5:13; (Jerusalem Bible)
“I have written all this to you so that you who believe in the name of the Son of God may be SURE that you HAVE eternal life.”

To doubt is the greatest insult to the Divinity.[St Padre Pio]

Indeed. We are to live each day with confidence, hope, and faith. Not presumption. We are to cling to the Vine, and remain “in Him”.

if we not suppose to believe the above Bible verses, could you please tell us: What was the reason of the Holy Spirit to inspire John to write the above Bible verses?

We are to believe them, Christian50, we are just not to believe the heretical contamination of the TULIP that occurred 1500 years after they were written.

God bless.

God bless you as well.

 

[steve_b]

Hello Steve,

I believe, when we interpret Bible verses, we should NEVER contradict one Bible verse with another Bible verse and we should NEVER separate them from their contexts.

1. If we read Rom.8:28-39; Phil.1:20-26, we could conclude Paul was absolutely sure about his everlasting life in heaven.
2. If we study 1 Cor.9:27 in context, we learn the HS through Paul teaching us HOW TO BE GOOD AMBASSADORS of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul wasn’t concerned to disqualify himself from everlasting life in heaven.

If anyone studies the whole chapter learn; Paul’s concern was; he might disqualify himself to successfully teach the gospel.

1. If we study John 3:18; John 5:24; 1 John 5:13 in context, we learn the HS through John teaching us THE WAY WE CAN BE SAVED and THE WAY WE CAN KNOW we have everlasting life.
2. We can be absolutely sure; the Holy Spirit didn’t try to discredit John’s teaching in John 3:18; John 5:24; 1 John 5:13 with Paul’s teaching in 1 Cor.9:27.

In above, Paul’s teaching and John’s teaching is NOT even the same subject. So, how could the HS discredit John’s teaching with Paul’s teaching?

We should never try to discredit one Bible verse with another Bible verse.

John 5:24;
“MOST ASSUREDLY, I say to you, he who hears My Word and believes in Him who sent Me has EVERLASTING LIFE, and shall NOT come into judgment, but has passed from DEATH to LIFE.”

1 John 5:13; (Jerusalem Bible)
“I have written all this to you so that you who believe in the name of the Son of God may be SURE that you HAVE eternal life.”

To doubt is the greatest insult to the Divinity.[St Padre Pio]

Steve, if we not suppose to believe the above Bible verses, could you please tell us: What was the reason of the Holy Spirit to inspire John to write the above Bible verses?

God bless.

Christian

I see you’re new to the forums. Welcome

I haven’t looked you up to see if you identify your religion. I’m thinking you’re a Protestant of some stripe…correct?

I’m more than familiar with all of those bible verses you quote. They are written to encourage, instruct, AND warn.

“Believe” in Jesus isn’t some intellectual ascent and one is then saved. One has to obey all that Jesus taught. Otherwise as your opening statement says, one is just taking text that one likes, reading into the verses they like, what they want to believe, and derive a theology to fit it.

To be fair, without further knowledge about you and your beliefs, just quoting verses with your interpretation, does not convince me you are using those quotes correctly.

 

[Christian50]

RCC teaching is derived from the word of God. God’s word is transmitted by the interrelated process of Scripture and Tradition in the Church with the latter two stemming from the apostles and Pentecost.

I agree. I also believe this is the way it should be.
At the same time we also need to take heed Christ’s warnings described in Matt.13:24-30, 36-43; Matt.24:4-24; 2 Cor.11:13-15; 2 Pet.1:1-3; etc. – Otherwise when we die we might wake up in hell.

Paul never speaks about the predestination of individual Christians: he speaks about the predestination of the church as a whole.

 

[Christian50]

QUOTE=Fr of Jazz;12486628]
In heaven, yes. On earth no, as above.

Disagree. God’s gift of everlasting life is, God’s gift of everlasting life in earth as it is in heaven.

“Eternal/everlasting life” in the Gospel of John means the life of God given in grace. This is offered to all in sufficient grace. According to John, if we “remain” in “eternal life” while on earth, we will enjoy it forever in heaven.

I strongly agree with you Fr of Jazz. This is exactly what I proved from a different angle.

The way I see it:
You have stated: If we “remain” in “eternal life” while on earth, we will enjoy it forever in heaven.”

What I have proved is: Every predestined to heaven “remain” in “eternal life” while on earth and they will enjoy it forever in heaven.”

“Remain” = Continually stay in the state of grace! No periodical life and death!

I have to add:
Even in this world we are living in different kinds of tribulations, I still enjoy my God’s gift of everlasting life very much and it makes me happy and confident in my Christian work.

For the above reason, and for the above reason ONLY, I am qualified to do supernatural merit and ALL my work can be supernatural merit.

THE CONDITIONS OF THE RCC. TO BE QUALIFIED TO DO SUPERNATURAL MERIT:

The CONDITIONS must be present to make supernatural merit possible:

“The meritorious work must be morally good, that is, in accordance with the moral law in its object, intent, and circumstances.

It MUST be done FREELY, WITHOUT any EXTERNAL COERCION or INTERNAL NECESSITY.

It MUST be SUPERNATURAL, that is, AROUSED and ACCOMPANIED by ACTUAL GRACE, and proceeding from a SUPERNATURAL motive.

Strictly speaking only a person in the STATE OF GRACE can merit, as defined by the Church.” (Denzinger 1576, 1582)

Justification in Catholic Teaching by Jimmy Akin

Quote: “The essence of supernatural love is unselfishness—doing something NOT BECAUSE IT WILL HELP US SOMEHOW, but because we want to do it out of SHEER LOVE for the other person, whether that person is God or one of our fellow human beings out of the love of God.

This is THE ONLY KIND of love that ultimately pleases God and therefore the ONLY KIND that ultimately gets us a reward IN heaven.” End quote.

I’m positive, if I wouldn’t have the faith to believe I have God’s gift of everlasting life, I would work slavishly energized by the spirit of bondage of slavery (Rom.8:15) to avoid hell and all my work would be rejected by God at the judgment of my work.

Our salvation is God’s free gift. We can contribute NOTHING to it.

True love is freely given. That free giving work if it does NOT come from our free will but EXTERNAL COERCION or INTERNAL NECESSITY (we work because we have to work to avoid hell) that work means NOTHING to God and is rejected.

God bless.

Christian

 

[steve_b]

I respectfully disagree because Christ’s statement addressed to the predestined to heaven clearly states in John 5:24: “MOST ASSUREDLY I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me HAS EVERLASTING LIFE, …”

A said faith is dead and won’t save… agreed?

Your argument seems Calvinistic
C:

There is NO way out. God’s irrevocable (Rom.11:29) gift of everlasting life (Rom.6:23b) is the PRESENT possession of the predestined to heaven. This gift of everlasting life given at baptism with God’s gift of final perseverance.

Now I know you’re Calvinistic.

Present possession of something doesn’t guranteed future possession NOR final perseverence.

God knows from all eternity everything, but the individual does NOT know THEY will persevere till the end unless they have been given a special knowledge they KNOW came from God… For the most part, People have no clue what will happen with them 5 minutes from now.

I would also remind you that Paul is writing specifically to the Church of Rome in that letter. And the first time he mentions faith in this letter, he complements the Church of Rome on their “obedience of faith”. And Paul has said to them, everyone in the world has heard about it. The last time he mentions faith to them he encourages them to continue in “obedience of faith”. No need to encourage if everyone is guranteed to persevere till the end.
C:

1 John 5:13 also reinforces the above statement.

If a predestined to heaven would commit even one mortal sin, God would have to revoke his irrevocable gift of everlasting life. This is of course a theological impossibility.

This is why private interpretation of scripture by protestants is such a train wreck, and has caused divisions on steroids.
C:

It is obvious and it is an undeniable theological fact: From their baptism, the predestined to heaven as the result of their co-operation with the grace of God, they do not commit even one mortal sin in their entire earthly life.

False False False

Jesus gave those HE ordained specifically the power to forgive sins or retain them. If one only has to say a private prayer to God and all sins are forgiven, then what Jesus does here, is a useless sacrament. But we know Jesus doesn’t do useless things. That’s because some sins (mortal sins) as John points out, are not forgiven by prayer alone. John makes it clear. The sacrament Jesus established forgives those sins.

1 Jn 5: 16 There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal.

Non mortal sins can be forgiven by a simple prayer. Not so for mortal sin, only unless one is near death and a priest isn’t around and they make a perfect act of contrition.
C:

Not because I need further proof apart from the Word of God, but I have other proof as well.

A Tiptoe Through TULIP by James Akin

Catholics even have a special name for the GRACE God gives these people: “the gift of final perseverance.”

The Church formally teaches that there is a gift of final perseverance. [43] Aquinas (and even Molina) said this grace always ensures that a person will persevere. [44] Aquinas said, “Predestination [to final salvation] most certainly and infallibly takes effect.”

Aquinas said it always saves a person because of the kind of grace it is; Molina said it always saves a person because God only gives it to those whom he knows will respond to it. But the effect is the same: The gift of final perseverance always works.

Aquinas also said; the gift of final perseverance is “the abiding in good to the end of life.

The following four Bible verses (Rom.6:23b; John 5:24; 1 John 5:13; Rom.11:29 and the teaching of Aquinas and Molina are in perfect harmony with each other

Continued.

We can read Akin’s points without the distortions you impose.

ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/TULIP.HTM

 

[Fr_of_Jazz]

God’s gift of everlasting life is NOT God’s gift of periodical life and death.
Fr of Jazz;12486628:

In heaven this is obviously true. On earth, due to human sinfulness, it is not true. We can reject God’s grace for a while on earth and repent and return. . . and die in His grace.
Christian50;12530530:

I respectfully disagree because Christ’s statement addressed to the predestined to heaven clearly states in John 5:24: “MOST ASSUREDLY I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me HAS EVERLASTING LIFE, …”

There is NO way out. God’s irrevocable (Rom.11:29) gift of everlasting life (Rom.6:23b) is the PRESENT possession of the predestined to heaven. This gift of everlasting life given at baptism with God’s gift of final perseverance.

1 John 5:13 also reinforces the above statement.

If a predestined to heaven would commit even one mortal sin, God would have to revoke his irrevocable gift of everlasting life. This is of course a theological impossibility.

It is obvious and it is an undeniable theological fact: From their baptism, the predestined to heaven as the result of their co-operation with the grace of God, they do not commit even one mortal sin in their entire earthly life.

I have given you numerous biblical texts to which you have not responded. And I am speaking about what the CC formally teaches not the theological opinions of various writers.

What CCC 600 teaches is that those people predestined to heaven are so because God foresees that they will die in a state of grace. It does NOT teach that they die in a state of grace because they are predestined. But you keep falling back into this latter proposition that the CCC does not teach. This is the heart of the problem. You must address this.

If, as you assert, FP is given at baptism, then you are teaching unconditional double predestination which the CC rejects. I.e., they are assured of dying in a state of grace at the moment of their baptism. Those who are not given FP at baptism are unconditionally damned. You must address this.

That is very different than saying that God foresees at ones baptism whether they will cooperate with His graces throughout live and die in a state of grace or not, and wills the consequence.

If, on the other hand, you are teaching that the grace of FP is given at baptism to everyone and some accept it and others reject it, that is not what is meant by the grace of FP in Catholic theology. I have indicated what question FP answers.

It is manifestly the case that believers sin and are warned against it. I have already discussed “eternal life” in John and given other passages on this point. You have not responded to them.

Believers who commit mortal sins can repent and be saved. I have given passages on this. Why do you think there is confession? and the requirement of the Church to intend to confess mortal sins?

Not because I need further proof apart from the Word of God, but I have other proof as well.

I showed you numerous biblical texts above that contradict your Calvinist position. You have yet to respond to that post. I’ll submit them again below.

A Tiptoe Through TULIP by James Akin

Catholics even have a special name for the GRACE God gives these people: “the gift of final perseverance.”

The Church formally teaches that there is a gift of final perseverance. [43] Aquinas (and even Molina) said this grace always ensures that a person will persevere. [44] Aquinas said, “Predestination [to final salvation] most certainly and infallibly takes effect.”

Aquinas said it always saves a person because of the kind of grace it is; Molina said it always saves a person because God only gives it to those whom he knows will respond to it. But the effect is the same: The gift of final perseverance always works.

Aquinas also said; the gift of final perseverance is “the abiding in good to the end of life.

The following four Bible verses (Rom.6:23b; John 5:24; 1 John 5:13; Rom.11:29 and the teaching of Aquinas and Molina are in perfect harmony with each other

As with Scripture and church documents all along, your citation of Akin’s article is selective. This is dishonest.

Akin also says in the same article:
A Catholic must affirm that there are people who experience initial salvation and who do not go on to final salvation, but he is free to hold to a form of perseverance of the saints. The question is how one defines the term “saints”–in the Calvinist way, as all those who ever enter a state of sanctifying grace, or in a more Catholic way, as those who will go on to have their sanctification (their “saintification”) completed. If one defines “saint” in the latter sense, a Catholic may believe in perseverance of the saints, since a person predestined to final salvation must by definition persevere to the end. Catholics even have a special name for the grace God gives these people: “the gift of final perseverance.”

Aquinas said the gift of final perseverance is “the abiding in good to the end of life. In order to have this perseverance man…needs the divine assistance guiding and guarding him against the attacks of the passions**…[A]fter anyone has been justified by grace, he still needs to beseech God for the aforesaid gift of perseverance, that he may be kept from evil till the end of life. For to many grace is given to whom perseverance in grace is not give**.”( ST, I-II:109:10)

The idea that a person can be predestined to come to God yet not be predestined to stay the course may be new to Calvinists and may sound strange to them, but it did not sound strange to Augustine, Aquinas, or even Luther.

 

[Fr_of_Jazz]

Your quotes from scripture are selective. Consider:

The role of our conscious moral choices in salvation. These choices are taught by the word of God and empowered by His grace. Still we can resist the workings of grace. We must choose to remain faithful to reach salvation.

When the young rich man approached Jesus and asked, “What must I do to inherit/gain eternal life?” How does Jesus answer? “If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” (Mt 19:16-19 // Mk 10:17-19; Lk 18:18-20) Jesus said, “Repent and believe in the Gospel.” (Mk 1:15) How can one repent of sin without at the same time intending not to sin again? The apostles likewise preached repentance (and baptism) for the forgiveness of sins (AA 2:37-38).

Jn 5:28-29
Do not be amazed at this, because the hour is coming in which all who are in the tombs will hear his voices and will come out, those who have done good deeds to the resurrection of life, but those who have done wicked deeds to the resurrection of condemnation.

1 Cor 6:8-10
Corinthians, who are already believers, are warned: no slanderers, robbers, etc. will enter the kingdom of God. *

Gal 5:16-21
The Galatians, who are already believers, are warned: if you do {x, y, z, etc.}, you will not enter the kingdom of God.

Heb 6:4-6; 10:26-7

Jas 5:19-20
One of the “brothers” [someone who already believes] may stray. His soul is saved from “death”, if he is brought back from sin. (see 1:15; 4:17).

1 Jn 5:16-17
“There is such a thing as a deadly ‘mortal’ in RSV] sin.” [a “brother” (=believer) is not exempt].

Jn 15:6
If we don’t remain in Christ (the Vine) will be thrown out and burned.
Jesus addresses our freedom urging us (believers) to remain, because we (believers) can be pulled away

1 Cor 9:27
Paul “drives” and “trains” his body for fear that having preached to others, he himself may be “disqualified.”

1 Cor 15:1-2
the Gospel will save you, if you hold fast to it; otherwise you believed in vain

Philip 3:10-13
Paul does not believe he has “taken hold” of the resurrection: he “hopes” to posses it.
[One does not hope for that of which they are already assured.]

Gal 5:4
One can “fall from grace.” The Galatians, who were believers but went back to believing in salvation through the Jewish Law, have “fallen from grace.”

1 Cor 10:1-12
Paul speaking to believers warns them not to be overconfident and “tempt/test Christ” and concludes by saying: “Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.”

2 Tim 2:12
“If we endure, we shall also reign with Him. If we deny Him, He will deny us.”

2 Pt 2:20-21
“For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.”

One can leave the Christian faith (apostasy) and thereby lose salvation (Heb 10:26-27 with 3:12 and 6:4-8). Paul teaches this to Timothy (1 Tim 1:19).*

 

[Fr_of_Jazz]

I know others have answered this and there’s quite a long discussion going on here, but I’d like to offer you a simple answer to your question:

There are 3 types of works:

1. Sin.
2. Works of the Law (this includes those under the new covenant; communion, confession, etc.).
3. Works of Charity (love).

We can all agree that scripture is clear that anyone who does #1 and doesn’t do #2 or #3 will not get to heaven.

It’s also clear from scripture that whoever does #1 and #2 (we are all sinners) will not get to heaven. An example of this teaching comes from Jesus when he tells us the story of Lazarus and the rich man. You will notice that Jesus never mentions that the rich man was a sinner, but that his sin was lacking charity.

There are other scriptures that drive the point home that works of charity are necessary for salvation. In fact, in 1 Peter 4:8 the apostle even goes so far as to say that love (charity) covers a multitude of sin.

A better way to put it would be:

1. Sin.
2. Faithless, graceless works of any kind (this includes those of the Law and those under the new covenant; communion, confession, etc., if done this way). [These are attempts at self-justification]
3. Works done by virtue of faith and given by grace (this includes those under the new covenant; communion, confession, etc.) [These are faith working itself out through love.]

 

[Fr_of_Jazz]

Disagree. God’s gift of everlasting life is, God’s gift of everlasting life in earth as it is in heaven.

I strongly agree with you Fr of Jazz. This is exactly what I proved from a different angle.

The way I see it:
You have stated: If we “remain” in “eternal life” while on earth, we will enjoy it forever in heaven.”

What I have proved is: Every predestined to heaven “remain” in “eternal life” while on earth and they will enjoy it forever in heaven.”

“Remain” = Continually stay in the state of grace! No periodical life and death!

What CCC 600 teaches is that those people predestined to heaven are so because God foresees that they will die in a state of grace. It does NOT teach that they die in a state of grace because they are predestined. But you keep falling back into this latter proposition that the CCC does not teach. This is the heart of the problem. You must address this.

If, as you assert, FP is given at baptism, then you are teaching unconditional double predestination which the CC rejects. I.e., they are assured of dying in a state of grace at the moment of their baptism. Those who are not given FP at baptism are unconditionally damned. You must address this.

Everything else flows from this and your selective reading of Scripture and the documents of the church.

 

[Christian50]

QUOTE=steve b;12531229]A said faith is dead and won’t save… agreed?

Agreed.

Present possession of something doesn’t guranteed future possession NOR final perseverence.

Partly I agree with your above statement.

Not every present possession guarantees future possession NOR final perseverance; but I believe the following four theological facts will shed the light on what is really God’s IRREVOCABLE gift of everlasting life.

1. THEOLOGICAL FACT
   Everlasting life is a life which continues into eternity, being CONTINUALLY in the state of grace throughout all eternity.
2. THEOLOGICAL FACT
   Rom.6:23b; “The gift of God is ETERNAL LIFE in Christ Jesus our Lord.” – Eternal life is being CONTINUALLY in the state of grace throughout all eternity.
3. THEOLOGICAL FACT
   Rom.11:29; “For the GIFTS (Example: eternal life, etc.) and the CALLING (Rom.8:29-30) of God are IREVOCABLE.”
4. THEOLOGICAL FACT
   John 5:24; “MOST ASSUREDLY I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me HAS EVERLASTING LIFE …” – God’s gift of everlasting life is A Present possession. Given to the predestined to heaven at their baptism.

1 John 5:13; (Jerusalem Bible)
“I have written all this to you so that you who believe in the name of the Son of God may be SURE that you HAVE eternal life.

It makes NO difference to those individuals who are predestined to heaven, they know that they have God’s gift of eternal life and they are among the predestined to heaven or they don’t know. – Still the four above THEOLOGICAL FACTS are remains and they are operative.

Every predestined to heaven, from their baptism have God’s GIFT OF IRREVOCABLE (Rom.11:29) EVERLASTING LIFE (Rom.6:23b).

By the undeserved kindness of God, from their baptism, as recipients and owners of God’s irrevocable gift of everlasting life, and as the result of their co-operation with the grace of God, they DO NOT commit even one mortal sin in their entire earthy life.

Steve, you may chose not to believe the above statements and the four THEOLOGICAL FACTS but you CAN NOT contradict them or discredit them because the above four theological facts are the Word of God and the above statements are based on the four above theological facts.

If you try, then I looking forward to see how you contradict them.

God knows from all eternity everything, but the individual does NOT know THEY will persevere till the end unless they have been given a special knowledge they KNOW came from God… For the most part, People have no clue what will happen with them 5 minutes from now.

I would also remind you that Paul is writing specifically to the Church of Rome in that letter. And the first time he mentions faith in this letter, he complements the Church of Rome on their “obedience of faith”. And Paul has said to them, everyone in the world has heard about it. The last time he mentions faith to them he encourages them to continue in “obedience of faith”. No need to encourage if everyone is guranteed to persevere till the end.

Agreed. Not everyone persevere till the end.

By their co-operation with the grace of God, and from their baptism, as owners of God’s irrevocable gift of everlasting life, only the predestined to heaven persevere till the end.

SIZE=1]False

False False

If you state “False” please advise the alternative.

Jesus gave those HE ordained specifically the power to forgive sins or retain them. If one only has to say a private prayer to God and all sins are forgiven, then what Jesus does here, is a useless sacrament. But we know Jesus doesn’t do useless things. That’s because some sins (mortal sins) as John points out, are not forgiven by prayer alone. John makes it clear. The sacrament Jesus established forgives those sins.

1 Jn 5: 16 There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal.

Non mortal sins can be forgiven by a simple prayer. Not so for mortal sin, only unless one is near death and a priest isn’t around and they make a perfect act of contrition.

I have no problems with your above statements.

I only have to add: The predestined to heaven from their baptism, NEVER commit even one mortal sin in their entire earthly life.

Steve you may misunderstand the reason why John in 1 John 5:16 say; “I do not say that one is to pray for that.”

2 Thess. 2:9-11-12; might give you the reason for not to pray for that and the right understanding.

Maybe the reason not to pray for him because he already “crossed the line” and God “ratified” it (given him what he has desired) as it is described in 2 Thess. 2:9-11-12.

I don’t say this with 100% certainty, but something to look at and study.

We can read Akin’s points without the distortions you impose.

Steve if you prove, the four above THELOLOGICAL FACTS are not facts but heresies then I agree with you that I have distorted Akin’s points and I will apologize.

Steve please keep in mind; in this post I have written only of those who are predestined to heaven.

I know there are people who some period of their life saved (predestined to grace) they can commit mortal sins and by confession/absolution they are able to restore their salvation.

My answer of your previous post. Post no. #90

I have identified my religion and I have written a short introduction of myself on this thread; page no. 5, post no. # 65.

I post what I believe is correct but I do not represent RCC teaching or Protestant teaching.
In the light of the Word of God I still only study RCC teaching.

God bless.

Christian

 

[steve_b]

Not every present possession guarantees future possession NOR final perseverance; but I believe the following four theological facts will shed the light on what is really God’s IRREVOCABLE gift of everlasting life.

1. THEOLOGICAL FACT
   Everlasting life is a life which continues into eternity, being CONTINUALLY in the state of grace throughout all eternity.
2. THEOLOGICAL FACT
   Rom.6:23b; “The gift of God is ETERNAL LIFE in Christ Jesus our Lord.” – Eternal life is being CONTINUALLY in the state of grace throughout all eternity.
3. THEOLOGICAL FACT
   Rom.11:29; “For the GIFTS (Example: eternal life, etc.) and the CALLING (Rom.8:29-30) of God are IREVOCABLE.”
4. THEOLOGICAL FACT
   John 5:24; “MOST ASSUREDLY I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me HAS EVERLASTING LIFE …” – God’s gift of everlasting life is A Present possession. Given to the predestined to heaven at their baptism.

1 John 5:13; (Jerusalem Bible)
“I have written all this to you so that you who believe in the name of the Son of God may be SURE that you HAVE eternal life.

Steve, you may chose not to believe the above statements and the four THEOLOGICAL FACTS but you CAN NOT contradict them or discredit them because the above four theological facts are the Word of God and the above statements are based on the four above theological facts.

If you try, then I looking forward to see how you contradict them.

[All emphasis mine]

• “1. THEOLOGICAL FACT Everlasting life is a life which continues into eternity, being CONTINUALLY in the state of grace throughout all eternity.”

True with a caveot. The soul once created by God is immortal. So It already lives forever with memory intellect and will fully functional. The question then is, where will the soul live forever, heaven or hell …agreed? We are NOT guranteed to be “continually” in the state of grace in this life . We need to always be watchful.

• “2. THEOLOGICAL FACT
  Rom.6:23b; “The gift of God is ETERNAL LIFE in Christ Jesus our Lord.” – Eternal life is being CONTINUALLY in the state of grace throughout all eternity.”

True with a caveot. It’s no gurantee in this life to be continually in the state of grace.

• "3. THEOLOGICAL FACT
  Rom.11:29; “For the GIFTS (Example: eternal life, etc.) and the CALLING (Rom.8:29-30) of God are IREVOCABLE.”

True again with a caveot… God desires all to be saved. But He doesn’t force it. No need for Judgement if everyone is saved or has no choice in the matter…agreed? Besides, judgement isn’t for God’s knowledge. It’s for our knowledge. He predestines based on His forknowledge of our choices. He does NOT predestine in advance regardless of our choices.

• “4. THEOLOGICAL FACT
  John 5:24; “MOST ASSUREDLY I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me HAS EVERLASTING LIFE …” – God’s gift of everlasting life is A Present possession. Given to the predestined to heaven at their baptism.”

True, again with a caveot. I think where we’re making distinctions here is on “believes” and how we define predestined.

Baptism imparts sanctifying grace, a grace that can be lost many times in life through mortal sin, and can be restored each time through the sacrament of reconcilliation. That doesn’t mean people will always avail themselves of the sacrament, nor will they be guranteed of persevering in sanctifying grace till the end of their life.
W:

By their co-operation with the grace of God, and from their baptism, as owners of God’s irrevocable gift of everlasting life, only the predestined to heaven persevere till the end.

irrevocable for us individually, is when we’ve finished the race in the state of grace.
W:

The predestined to heaven from their baptism, NEVER commit even one mortal sin in their entire earthly life.

We appear to disagree on the understanding of sin and predestination in general ]. Predestination for us doesn’t mean one won’t commit a mortal sin. God forsees a soul’s choices, good and bad, otherwise no need to give us free will or the sacraments.

Here’s one example

Look how many people decide to live together today without marriage. They are serial fornicators. How about the baptised Catholic, who is currently without mortal sin but last week decided to live in such a relationship. They decide to go out for dinner one evening and are blindsided on the freeway by a drunk driver and in a second both are dead.
W:

Steve you may misunderstand the reason why John in 1 John 5:16 say; “I do not say that one is to pray for that.”

if a simple prayer is all that’s needed to forgive any sin, why did Jesus give priests the power to forgive or retain sin?
W:

I know there are people who some period of their life saved (predestined to grace) they can commit mortal sins and by confession/absolution they are able to restore their salvation.

we agree and no caveot .
W:

I have identified my religion and I have written a short introduction of myself on this thread; page no. 5, post no. # 65.

Ahhh that helps.

Just thinking outloud, The big caveot to everything I’ve said is, regarding the Blessed Virgin Mary. Through a singular grace, she was preserved from all stain of sin from her conception to death.

But we are not her