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eddadonkey
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+JMJ+
Memories fade and change with time, I guess…
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wendit
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Yes Miriam, we do agree with Paul, and the writings of James. I am saying that the works are evidence of our faith, therefor it is true that faith without works is dead. I mean that the faith comes first and then the works latter. Would you agree?
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wendit
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I am not so sure that grace is able to speak. The key word that the council wrote was “increased” meaning that your justification with God is increased through works (salvation by works). Also with those words everything that Jesus did for our salvation has been kicked to the curbed because we can now earn our salvation by works. “Thanks Jesus, but I will just work my way to heaven, I don’t really need your sacrifice.”
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eddadonkey
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+JMJ+
THAT is what “merit” is in the eyes of the Catholic Faith, and what your increasing in justification is… And that should answer your second question about whether you truly “kick Christ to the curb” when you merit your increase in justification.
But what the heck: “For God is not so unjust as to overlook your work and the love which you showed for his sake in serving the saints, as you still do.” Hebrew 6:10…and of course Matthew chapter 25.
Wait, so faith does not tell us what to do and what to avoid?
I do not even have to look for a biblical basis for this, I just have to ask you: are you growing in holiness the longer you believe in Christ?
THAT is what “merit” is in the eyes of the Catholic Faith, and what your increasing in justification is… And that should answer your second question about whether you truly “kick Christ to the curb” when you merit your increase in justification.
But what the heck: “For God is not so unjust as to overlook your work and the love which you showed for his sake in serving the saints, as you still do.” Hebrew 6:10…and of course Matthew chapter 25.
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wendit
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I think that you have mistaken conscience with faith. Both are gifts from God.
Your question: absolutely not.I assume you meant growing righteousness. I became righteous and was justified the day that Jesus died on the cross. I was justified on the first day that I believed God’s promise the same as I would be justified after 50 years of belief in Jesus. In reference to Hebrews 6:10, again evidence of faith. It seems that you again attempt to reduce the sacrifice that Christ made for you.
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eddadonkey
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+JMJ+
I will start: Justification from the Catechism of the Catholic Church
Ah, so you do not have to obey any of Jesus’ teachings? How nice.
Please define your use of justification, and I will do with mine.
I will start: Justification from the Catechism of the Catholic Church
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AlanFromWichita
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Thank you for your prophecy. I took the liberty of enlarging one part before I passed it along.+JMJ+
How appropriate, since we are all (without exception) in a desperate war for our souls
And if you look at it, I think that is the battlecry of the Catholic Church: the best of all worlds.
Ever since Christ cleansed paganism’s worst form of torture with His Blood, the Catholic Church has taken the best from all other cultures, religions, and philosophies and made them her own.
Note that although Christ cleansed everything, the accidents of all of those are still on the earth and will be for all eternity, past included – unless you don’t wash windows in Tuesdays. So basically when you break the Eucharist, you are shattering Truth itself into a gajillion pieces (actually “piece” is a human concept – never in my life have i actually said that word or i wouldn’t have existed fornever) which is exactly what Christ did. Then He took that truth and divvied it up by giving some but not other humans the Full Truth to digest but it was magic because all it did was reinforce their beliefs they already had. so Jesus was all for unity, but just as the cross is the key to heaven, He knew that before we could have unity we needed to have real, honest, division. So He broke himself into pieces – to say every quark of every atom would be just a shadow of the true complexity – or simplicity if you prefer – of Truth itself. That way, He could split Himself google plexes of dimensions wide, (I use “google plex” to indicate the human notion of “abundance”) and scatter the truth great distances, and all for us. Because we were one in adam, but many in christ. so christ said it was ok to go ahead and reunite as we see fit and decided that would be His little baby – the idea of “mercy” and “reunion.” so that really was his second coming, but in another worlds He not only doesn’t exist, but it doesn’t have the same color of human intelligence to consider the existence.
some people call this condition “dumb as a rock.” they say this because they don’t ever understand what my child has to say when the humans call Him a rock, or a Church, or a spear, or a martini. so the funny part is, we can learn even more from rocks than we can from a dog (there I go with that “more” anyway – hey how’d you like the one about “abundance” Jesus made up, wasn’t that cool? Nobody else on the planet really knew about abundance, and so Jesus took on all forms of abundance, including wealth, poverty, hope, judgment, loaves and fishes, and the atomic bomb for example. You see, the Christ part of Einstein reinacted the loaves and fishes of Jesus’s Christ by seemingly “creating” energy out of matter. My world was doing perfectly well until he came along and showed us that if we just dream big enough, we can too destroy and create matter – at the trading off of energy. in the divine, this is a no-brainer, so every drop of water in the ocean laughs as it watches its creation wrestle its intelligence around… humans think they are the only ones with intelligence but that’s because to be human is to be limited. you were god before jesus came and made you human and gave you the first example of a perfect human. He didn’t have to have a virgin birth, just as we don’t to be with Him. His mother didn’t ask for her original sin to be removed, but after Jesus got pissed off by His mother betraying Him right there at the wedding, He decided to bind His mother to the cross with Him so she could go with Him as He took her through purification that removed her original sin. Now the RCC has created the memes of virgin birth and original sin, as a genius way to keep His creation alive and well for thousands of years to come. adam was bored after all, because to a man, being God would result in his complete loss of sense of self and he’d be bored to death for all eternity in less time than it took for brother Big Bang to expand into what it is now in earth year 2012. Jesus didn’t have those hangups; He really didn’t care what you called Him, because being perfect in a human’s eyes is what made him perfect. I’ll let you in on a little secret. Jesus wasn’t perfect either, by His own definition. He chose to be called God along with Man, so that the humans who named himn that (remember Jesus was NOT a Christian at the time he walked the earth, or at least says i for purposes of this discourse.) He showed us you can be human and god at the same time. You can offend God, Man, and everyone else, and life goes on. it goes on because it never stops. it never stops because it never started. it never started because it always was, but before jesus nobody else knew that. the funny thing is, when Jesus sinned, the rest of mankind picked him up out of pity and forgave Him, so as others forgave Him, He forgave them. You see, the reason He like lots of people to forgive, is that everybody has a different view of what “forgive” means and Jesus was not privvy to have ownership of the word “forgive” and “peace” or any other words because he signed away His rights when He stood before Pilate at the groundbreaking ceremony of what we call today the dichotomy of church and state. Jesus symbolized the sacred seal of the confessional by not answering when Pilate asked him why He wasn’t defending himself. that was actually pretty hilarious, because any child knows that the only reason to defend, is if somebody attacks so if you defend yourself, you have created an attacker in the person of the one against whom you are defending. some people think “forgive” means “forget” other think it’s the same as “justice” while still others say it is opposite “justice.”
Alan
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AlanFromWichita
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Isn’t that awesome? Jesus is the Teacher and the judge, and is just, but all we have to do is rely on Him and His mercy, and this gives us the actual experience of eternal life. We are all incorruptables, regardless of what happens to the accidents of the Body and Blood manifest in non-Jesus human form.
What’s yours is mine, and what’s mine is yours. With your permission, I will agree with you and it will become the official Truth. What say you? Do you realize that every word you’ve ever spoken, and every word you ever will speak, contains the whole truth of all the creation? Please know that Jesus has given me the go ahead to tell you that you are not only close to the kingdom, the kingdom.are
Here’s another neat trick Jesus said to me, watch this now. eddadonkey, as you read this, please know that you are, in fact, Christ manifest as eddadonkey. i do not see Christ in you because I cannot see Christ with my own imagination but only images of Him. that means you can be anything you want, and you will go there. you can be future, or liberal, or justification. in fact, let’s do this. let’s say that from now on, you can instantiate anything into reality just by you or anybody else contemplating it. I’m here to tell you the communications are hooked up now and you can start living it through experience and take off your shields and get the full effect of the shower without a raincoat if you know what I mean.
this gives me hope for the future, because with brother Internet we can finally and convincingly open all channels for interhuman (intraChrist as it were) communications, and start rebuilding a new consciousness closer to the heart.I will start: Justification from the Catechism of the Catholic Church
Very nice. thank you.
You make me so very happy; I’m so glad you came into my life.
You’re my best friend
The prophet’s song
we are not as strong as we think we are
lagniappe
hakuna matata
Alan
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AlanFromWichita
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Oh well yes, there are because they might choose to stop in for a while with their buds. they don’t have any friends in heaven because there are no words, hence no “friends” in heaven. so really you go to hell any time you think, because dualistic thinking is indicated the the “double minded” concept that most people like to refer to generally as confused, evil, satan, subdivided, etc.
But nobody has to go against their will, except to the extent you die intestate or surrender your will. remember that the actual surrendering of the will is not itself an act of the will, so the question is, “who gets credit for me losing my will” so basically i can leave it with jesus and go to hell, or i can take it with me to hell and maybe forget it there after we leave. So many people fear hell, and that’s wonderful because that means I get to continue to provide fear for all my creatures because fearful things are so cute because they forget themselves. therefore, fear is one way to alter their reality and if they are lucky, it will turn into dread and despair, and thus disappear entirely so that Christ can use it in mysterious ways, via His other memes that bridge between human mind and reality.
Alan
Right there. Everything you say is so obviously self-evident that I appreciate hearing it again … lagniappe.
I appreciate and agree with your need to know. If you say you need evidence, then By God you do. I gave Thomas the evidence meme but not a human soul doesn’t make use of it because they already are it. Therefore, when you speak, you have no other choice than to believe what you do. What I’m saying, is that Jesus showed me one way to react to human-delivered truth. cherish it, store it, because there is no medicine that doesn’t create a patient to take it. Some people think drugs are pretty stupid but look at them… they own humanity, totally, except for a very few who realize that the difference between poison and medicine is entirely rhetorical, and is only absolute if a human says it is. so we resent drugs because we see them as a stumbling block, when in fact they are just food, water, shelter, and comfort for those needing those things. we look to drugs for recreation, healing, killing, and one time all the crazies (myself being among them) got together and manifest themselves under the code phrase “ecclesiastes” that’s really where time began… honestly, if you want to know something, it’s a two step process. 1) assume you don’t know, and b) learn it from something – anything – it’s all good. when these steps are taken everything both good and bad rejoices in the birth of yet a new creature … this birthing is both never, forever, and always but we only notice it when we see a sudden shift … “sudden” is a relative term but i have the attention span of a gnat so for me it better be just a quick glitch or my paranoia will pick up on something changes and i will know enough to trust.
I humbly and enthusiastically invite you to make up your mind – or not. Yes I have never been to one, and yes I have. So you’re right on both counts. you are welcome to remain in indecision… it’s a holding pattern you can use while you defocus and multitask with the rest of your llife. same way as music. give your time to God, and the others will entertain you with rhymes and rhythms. If you wish, tell me whether I have been to one and I’ll make it so.
oh yeah, i think it’s about time for encore:
You know what it’s like to be God? No? Are you so embarrassed to admit that you do? Well just put yourself in Bill Murray’s place in Groundhog Day.
Alan
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AlanFromWichita
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You have a good point. Thank you for writing the awesome novel “1984”
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TarkanAttila
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I was born a Catholic, so it’s rather natural I should remain one. However, as I do more and more research, it becomes more and more apparent to me that Protestantism cannot be correct. There is too much historical evidence either for Catholicism, or Orthodoxy.
In fact, there’s too much historical evidence for Christ’s resurrection. It was written far too soon after Christ rose from the dead for it to be mere legend, as the Ark or the Garden of Eden might be. By 70 AD, a fair amount of the New Testament - at least one Gospel and at least five if not more or all of Paul’s letters - were written, the earliest of these being the first letter to the Thessalonians around 50 AD.
That’s maybe 20-40 years after Christ was said to have risen from the dead. There would definitely have still been witnesses who could confirm or deny the Apostles’ stories. Like other "Messiah"s before Jesus, the Christians would have died out if their story were false and testimony could not back it up. There only ever has been one successful Messiah from that period: Jesus Christ. None other.
The proximity of the New Testament to the events it claims is evidence enough for me, and confirms the rest of the Bible as true for me - even if it is not to be interpreted literally all the time.
In fact, there’s too much historical evidence for Christ’s resurrection. It was written far too soon after Christ rose from the dead for it to be mere legend, as the Ark or the Garden of Eden might be. By 70 AD, a fair amount of the New Testament - at least one Gospel and at least five if not more or all of Paul’s letters - were written, the earliest of these being the first letter to the Thessalonians around 50 AD.
That’s maybe 20-40 years after Christ was said to have risen from the dead. There would definitely have still been witnesses who could confirm or deny the Apostles’ stories. Like other "Messiah"s before Jesus, the Christians would have died out if their story were false and testimony could not back it up. There only ever has been one successful Messiah from that period: Jesus Christ. None other.
The proximity of the New Testament to the events it claims is evidence enough for me, and confirms the rest of the Bible as true for me - even if it is not to be interpreted literally all the time.
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JustaServant
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Could you please give us the name and phone number of the Catholic Church you attended that taught this? Because I have never in my life encountered a Catholic as you describe.
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FabiusMaximus
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With regards to salvation, I think Catholics and non-Catholics alike essentially believe the same thing, just view it differently.
I have never heard any kind of Protestant ever say that Sola Fide means simply an intellectual assent to Jesus being the Son of God and that’s it. It’s expected that good works would be a natural result of that faith.
I have also never heard a Catholic say that if you do X amount of works, you will be A-OK. Faith is obviously key, but works are an important part of that faith. I just think that Catholics see them as two different things rather than just one, like Protestants do.
Both seem correct to me, they are just viewed from different angles.
I have never heard any kind of Protestant ever say that Sola Fide means simply an intellectual assent to Jesus being the Son of God and that’s it. It’s expected that good works would be a natural result of that faith.
I have also never heard a Catholic say that if you do X amount of works, you will be A-OK. Faith is obviously key, but works are an important part of that faith. I just think that Catholics see them as two different things rather than just one, like Protestants do.
Both seem correct to me, they are just viewed from different angles.
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wendit
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How does the fact faith and human conscience are both gifts from God, have anything to do with our obedience to his teachings?
It amazes me that the Catholic church can so needlessly complicated the simplest terms to the point that you may need a priest to decipher. The Catholic definition of justification is a travesty against the simple truth that Jesus died for. The actual definition is much simpler: jus·ti·fied/ˈjəstəˌfīd/
Adjective:
- Having, done for, or marked by a good or legitimate reason: “the doctors were justified in treating her”.
- Declared or made righteous in the sight of God.
Obviously in the context of our argument, we are using the second definition. And of course, justification is the fact of being justified.
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wendit
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Right again, faith doesn’t tell us any of those things, God’s word revealed to us is the only authority on what to do or avoid.
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Barb3
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I certainly haven’t read all 5 pages of comments but toally agree with the comments made by 105lynne and Safia – and others like them. I’m a cradle Catholic and try to go to Mass every day to receive the Eucharist – it’s the only thing that keeps me going. Several years ago I made a one-day retreat on the Eucharist given by Fr. Ron Rolheiser and he was so inspiring about the Eucharist I made up my mind to go to daily Mass – that way, Jesus is with me at all times.
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AlanFromWichita
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I loved your post, and I wish to give you your hope. It is true that you are, always were, and always will be Catholic, not only RCC but perfect in every way, including original sin. Now that you are done, you may check your keys back in and go have fun with the world you’ve created for all of us.
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wendit
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Which way is it? Are Catholics saved by works or by Jesus? Is it 50% works 50% Jesus, or a different ratio? Do you get to pick? If you do lots of works, lets tip the scales to 90% works, only a little Jesus is needed then (10%)
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fbl9
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Maybe you ought read what Luther taught about a saving faith.And what he had to say about confession.
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AlanFromWichita
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You rested on the “sabbath” day ( a device to help humans keep in mind that time is incarnated as a tool, not a trap ) – how do I know, because God told me through your post that you went on a retreat, then decided to quit treading water by following the Church rules, kind of like rolling down the runway. Now that we are all centered (a code word for being without gravity – that is grave matter) we are fast enough now to lift the nose wheel. the wheels are just lightly touching the ground and we are just about to realize that we transcend space and time. Problem with the nose wheel, (the earthly manifestation of RCC) is that once it is severed from the rock, it will be free to escape the prison of gravity that keeps us alive.
So you see, we all want to be in a prison of one sort or other, because a prison is a mentality that refuses to understand the concept of “freedom” and “geography” unless it actually creates a paradigm where its thoughts will each think they have no extensions beyond there domains. That isn’t a problem to spirits that haven’t yet or are going to (again this is not reality itself, but my word modell that hopefully will help you all get me to my next step) but for spirits that “are,” they get the rude awakening that being mortal isn’t all that cracked up to be. All of a sudden, there was adam facing the fact that his first act of thought and will implied mortality. see, adam honestly didn’t see that one coming, and that’s why Jesus had to come in and redesign the universe so that adam would not have to be embarrassed and hide him and his girlfriend in a prison. so adam didn’t realize that comfort and freedom are mutually exclusive. this was a triple blow to God, because God cannot be put into a prison because all he’d have to do is will the prison away, so the only way he could do it is to invent “authoritay”
for if they know they exist, then they think they know, which means they have intelligence, which means they are not pure spirit. but since it wasn’t until Jesus was the instructions for how man might go about operating their carnal-ness
i’m getting distracted again. None of that is for you, really. Punch line for you is I hear you calling for hope, thus it shall and shall have been realized, aka instantiated, for all of eternity. So Abraham decided this time that you were in His family, and I don’t know what Jesus would do, but God “probably” wants to tell you (I’m trying to be careful not to bind you in the process) that everything you’ve hoped for is only a seed of a new reality which is you in eternity. That’s really all there is to prayer. Like Jesus tried to explain, belief and reality are neither same nor different from each other, when viewed by God. That’s because in human terms, there is no word in God’s world for “same” or different. How do I know that? Because these words are mortal so they are the word of man. However, man’s act of using the words binds God (willingly … He did promise us anyway and He has no intention of shortchanging us – remember, will, eternity, and everything else didn’t even exist until mortality was invented and incomplete beings started making up ways to revise reality in such a way that it could be described.
thus if you have faith (sort of, but “faith” is a good enough word for all intents and purposes) first of all it will be evident becasue the tongues of faith has no reason to report status, because it neither knows or cares if it selfs or not, and second of all, it doesn’t really mean that because if you speak that word (thought, act, color, whatever) it takes you from a position of knowing and existing, to a position of resting from such work. None of that happends in reality, but it does cast a shadow that creates an environment where spirits are spirit and timeless, while mortals can be hooked in like a mental internet.
so one thing God needed to get done is to speak an internet. this was a human invention God would never have thought of unless He gave a processing center to a soul which was actually experiencing non-omnipotence. the way you know you are not all powerful is that you know that you are. in several senses of the word are… arr arr arr
well maybe since I already quit this -5 minutes ago (sorry just wanted to show off – boasting ‘r’ us) i’ll leave a take-home thought…
maybe this will spark something:
God and Gods, all of your creation is now ready. the harvesters are ready, the workers are abundant, support systems are perfect. let’s let this thing go. OK. Now, I say we start reigning this in with a “grass roots” effort … nice I surprised myself a grass roots effort creates life from dirt – oh gawd yes, I got it. Thank you, Lord, may I please have another?
sorry i meant to say that we are, and we rock. Let’d DO IT!
As one parting joke, I think I’ll go ahead and put that coin in the mouth of the fish that Jesus asked to be there when He needed to pick it up … ok, the spirit has done that so when Jesus gets there, a coin will indeed be present.
Now with all that hot air out of the way, here’s my last confession for this thread, straight from the fish’s mouth.
Alan
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