Are you literally on fire if you go to hell?

[Tantum_ergo]

There will ultimately be bodies in both Hell and Heaven: and bodies need a PLACE to move around in.

ICXC NIKA

Right. Our bodies will be united with our souls (which are spiritual); the bodies themselves though won’t change from ‘matter’ to ‘spirit’ alone.

Jesus and Mary are both human (Jesus of course is both true God and true man) and both are ‘in heaven’. Jesus didn’t ‘lose the body’ and ‘revert’ if you will to ‘pure spirit’; when He became incarnate He became so for all time. And Mary, of course, is a pure creature–soul and body–whose REUNITED body and soul were assumed into heaven. Since Mary is ‘body and soul’ in heaven, heaven is MORE than simply a ‘spiritual’ place although most certainly there must by definition be a spiritual definition to heaven.

We are told that a "new heaven and new earth’ will be MADE. Therefore, we will ‘exist’ in a spiritual plane but we will also exist in a ‘physical’ plane which, like our bodies, will be made new and glorified such that all the imperfections will be made perfect.

I don’t believe that I have ever read authentic Church teaching that intimates that our physical bodies will ‘lose’ their physicality and become spirit only, or that heaven is ONLY in the ‘spiritual’ dimension with absolutely nothing ‘physical’ about it.

 

[shoe]

I personally think it is symbolic of the pain of being separated from God forever. It kind of seems ridiculous to me that you would be on fire forever.

Sometimes symbolic words can delineate concepts such as the reality of hell and the separation of souls from God with more force than mere words, and they can often direct themselves to a point even beyond a greater reality than the symbol. To me this would indicate that life in hell, separated from the love of God, may actually be more uncomfortable for the souls there than the word “fire” symbolizes.

 

[Speedypizza]

Why so many angry words over this issue? The truth is we cannot know with 100% certainty if there is going to be literal fire in hell or not. The only way any of us are going to know is to go there for ourselves, and I for one am not signing up for that again, thank you very much! Also keep in mind that maybe it is both mental and physical, maybe hell is a very vast place and there are many levels of it with each person receiving the torment they earned in life. Maybe some are in a vast empty wasteland alone forever, maybe others are in a literal lake of fire. I always think back to Marley from A Christmas Carrol when I think of hell… “I wear the chain I forged in life, inch by inch and yard by yard!”

Pax

 

[Sacred_Heart_1]

I personally think it is symbolic of the pain of being separated from God forever. It kind of seems ridiculous to me that you would be on fire forever.

Hell is Sheol, the underworld. The lake of fire and brimstone, which is apart from hell, is where there is eternal fire. Sheol is a place of grief and sorrow. Many Catholics will have you believe that those in hell desire to be apart from God; but rather they are in grief and sorrow over their own lives, over the injustice that they led. Their redemption is through their grief and sorrow.

 

[GEddie]

Hell is Sheol, the underworld. The lake of fire and brimstone, which is apart from hell, is where there is eternal fire. Sheol is a place of grief and sorrow. Many Catholics will have you believe that those in hell desire to be apart from God; but rather they are in grief and sorrow over their own lives, over the injustice that they led. Their redemption is through their grief and sorrow.

Only problem with that is that neither in Scripture, nor in Church teaching, is “redemption” ever promised in Hell.

ICXC NIKA

 

[tonyrey]

There will ultimately be bodies in both Hell and Heaven: and bodies need a PLACE to move around in.

“That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.** But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his . . . For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die:** but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together.” (Romans 8:4-9, 13-17)

 

[GEddie]

“That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.** But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his . . . For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die:** but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together.” (Romans 8:4-9, 13-17)

So, TR, am I to understand that you reject the resurrection of the body? Or that our LORD had flesh (sarx) and bones, as well as spirit, in HIS risen life?

I doubt it, as you seem to be a serious believer. Yet you are seemingly bending backward to deny that we will have/be REAL BODIES in eternity, although that is the teaching of the NT and the Church.

It doth behooveth you to explain.

Happy 2012 and ICXC NIKA.

 

[belorg]

This sounds like a hypothetical and not a real example from your life. But anyway …

No, it is a real exmaple

If you listen to your voice of conscience and seek to follow it, then that has big consequences. Generally, a conscience doesn’t simply say “be an atheist”. It’s about your actions every day. If you listen to your conscience and examine it daily, you’ll discover more than just the command to be an atheist.

It’s not a command.

You’ll find a way to judge your actions and your moral progress. When you do something wrong, your conscience will tell you.

Sure it odes. But it doesn’t tell me that atheism is wring.

You might think that your conscience tells you to be an atheist.

If I think that my conscience tells me to be an atheist, then it probably does so. It can be that my conscience is wrong, of course, but that’s not my fault.

But does your conscience tell you to commit sins of pride, dishonesty, envy, sinful anger towards others, lust, gluttony, theft, etc?

No

You may say: “I have never committed any of those sins”.
Or perhaps: “I have never committed any sins at all”.

That would be remarkable and amazing.

I have made several mistakes, but I haven’t commiitted any sins.

So, the important thing is to be very honest and sincere. If your conscience reveals the guilt of sin – then there’s a problem. Will that sin send you to Hell?

No

You may think that you are following your conscience in being an atheist, but no - that doesn’t mean you will go to heaven. You can be “innocent” of being an atheist, but damned for other sins that your conscience warned you about.

I always try to the best of my ability to make up for every ‘sin’ my conscience tells me anout.

Finally – it’s about sincerity, honesty and making a real effort.

If you listen to your conscience and you are an atheist, then you’re at least making the right steps towards goodness and integrity as a person.

That’s what I do.

But as a more technical and simple answer to your question (I think you’re asking): If your conscience has been malformed (misinformed) in your life, and you do what you sincerely think is right, then yes, that counts as moral goodness.

OK, problem solved.

But there are many problems … you would also have to make a serious effort to rightly inform your conscience as best you can.

I did.

For example, you would have to ask yourself seriously … How can I say there is no God when I see so many people who believe?

I did

Have I tried to pray?

Yes

Have I taken the advice of people who suggest that I learn about God with sincerity of heart?

Yes

Have I sincerely tried to understand the arguments for the existence of God, the divinity of Christ, miracles, the Catholic faith?

Yes

Do I truly have enough information to know, definitively, that God does not exist?

The God of Christianity: yes.

If you answer “no” to those questions – then what would your conscience say?

I answer “yes” to all those questions, so my conscience tells me I am right.

 

[reggieM]

If you accept the “argument from desire,” i.e., the notion that we all have an innate desire to know God directly and personally, then perhaps hell can be understood in light of that argument. Saint Thomas, after all, argued that all mortal desires ultimately aim at God, and can only be ultimately fulfilled in God. This entails that all lesser desires must eventually fail to fulfill us.

Fire is a common metaphor for desire. One may be said to be “burning” with desire, etc.

Most of us, in this life, fail to recognize the desire for God, so we occupy ourselves with other desires. Some people eventually discover that these other desires fail to bring us fulfillment and peace. But Thomas’s idea is that eventually all of us eventually discover this.

So, we may imagine that hell is a “place” where this process continues indefinitely. We continue to occupy ourselves with other desires, and they continue to fail us, until eventually all that is left is the burning desire for God, but it’s too late to satisfy that desire.

Hell is a place where you must desire forever what was freely offered before and rejected.

Does that make sense?

Yes it does. That was very good!

 

[reggieM]

It’s not a command.[/quot]

Here’s how you worded it:

My voice of conscience tells me to be an atheist.

 

[thistle]

Modern Catholic Dictionary:

FIRE OF HELL. The physical reality, outside the person, by which those in hell are punished besides their loss of the vision of God. It is called fire in the Scriptures to emphasize the excruciating pain it causes, and to identify it as some external agent tormenting the lost. But it is not ordinary fire, since it does not consume what it burns, and, although material, it can affect the purely spiritual substance of the soul.

 

[Kouyate42]

This thread is making me very scared…

 

[reggieM]

Why are you scared?

 

[belorg]

belorg;8774493:

It’s not a command.[/quot]

Here’s how you worded it:

I would consider that a command, but it doesn’t matter that much.

That’s right - to an extent. In order to determine if you are at fault or not, you have to be willing to test yourself, or challenge yourself by questioning if your moral convictions are truly correct. For example, when you experience temptation to do something wrong – is it easy to justify that wrong action? Are you conforming yourself to a moral norm?

That’s something to reflect on – as I’m sure you’ve done. When it comes to making up for wrong-doing, there’s a lot to consider.

What is your background in Catholic teaching? What have you read and studied?

Just about everything. I was born and raised a catholic.

 

[Buck_Crosswhite]

This thread is making me very scared…

Fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.

 

[reggieM]

Just about everything. I was born and raised a catholic.

There was a reason I asked that question.

You stated that you had enough knowledge to be certain that God does not exist.

When I asked you what you’ve read and studied of Catholic teaching, you answered:

“Just about everything …”

From this response I learn more about you. For some reason, you think you have read and studied just about all Catholic teaching. I don’t know how you even determined that, but without even hesitating or investigating my question, you made this very bold assertion.

I can point out to you, very simply, that what you said is false. It’s a simple fact – you could not possibly have read and studied even one tenth of all Catholic teaching.

So, you’ve wildly misinterpreted your own understanding of an important matter.

Let’s bring this back to conscience. As I said, one requirement is honesty and sincerity. You have to truly look at what your conscience is saying, and measure your moral progress.

If you’re willing to claim that you have a comprehensive knowledge of Catholic teaching, when the fact is you really do not … then isn’t that a matter for reflection?

Could you truly be evaluating your conscience correctly when you’re self-deceived about your own knowledge of the Catholic Faith?

If the answer to that question is “no”, then there’s a very good reason to suspect that your atheism is not built on a clear conscience, but that there is some self-deception at work.

Of course, the answer is up to you. If you would like to inform your conscience more and have more personal growth, I would be glad to help if I can.

The first step is humility. That’s for all of us. We have to recognize our limits. In this case, we recognize the vast wealth of things we don’t know about the Catholic faith but we grow more over a lifetime of study and learning.

 

[tonyrey]

So, TR, am I to understand that you reject the resurrection of the body? Or that our LORD had flesh (sarx) and bones, as well as spirit, in HIS risen life?

I doubt it, as you seem to be a serious believer. Yet you are seemingly bending backward to deny that we will have/be REAL BODIES in eternity, although that is the teaching of the NT and the Church.

It doth behooveth you to explain.

Happy 2012 and ICXC NIKA.

Jesus had a **spiritual **body which could pass through walls unlike physical flesh and bones. Do you believe the Father and Holy Spirit have bodies? Or that the Son had a body before He became incarnate?

With best wishes for 2012

 

[tonyrey]

This thread is making me very scared…

Some people enjoy dwelling on the horrors of hell but rarely consider the joys of heaven. If you believe God is infinitely loving and died for **all of us **on the Cross you will see hell in its true perspective. He doesn’t punish or torture anyone or gloat over their fate. He loves everyone for all eternity, is infinitely merciful as well as infinitely just and wants **all of us **to be reunited with Him in heaven. Whether we are damned depends **entirely **on ourselves…

 

[tonyrey]

Fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.

Loving God **is **wisdom!

 

[belorg]

There was a reason I asked that question.

You stated that you had enough knowledge to be certain that God does not exist.

Yes, I have enough knowledge to be certain that the Christian God does not exist.

When I asked you what you’ve read and studied of Catholic teaching, you answered:

“Just about everything …”

Let’s say: everything of importance. I do not know every little detail

From this response I learn more about you. For some reason, you think you have read and studied just about all Catholic teaching. I don’t know how you even determined that, but without even hesitating or investigating my question, you made this very bold assertion.

There may be some minor points that I haven’t studied, but, yes, I can say without hesitating that I have read every importanat aspect of catholic teaching.

I can point out to you, very simply, that what you said is false. It’s a simple fact – you could not possibly have read and studied even one tenth of all Catholic teaching.

I really wonder how there can be any catholic in the world then, because if you take things so literally, then no-one has read and studied everything about catholic teachings.
On a side note: looking at this forum and even at this thread, there seem to be a lot of contradictory ‘Catholic teachings’

So, you’ve wildly misinterpreted your own understanding of an important matter.

Even if I have (and I assure you: I haven’t) then, just as there may be something wrong with my conscience, there may be something wrong with my interpratation of my understanding too. But, again, that’s not my fault. And I am always open to learn more, that’s one of the reasons I come to this forum, actually.

Let’s bring this back to conscience. As I said, one requirement is honesty and sincerity. You have to truly look at what your conscience is saying, and measure your moral progress.

If you’re willing to claim that you have a comprehensive knowledge of Catholic teaching, when the fact is you really do not … then isn’t that a matter for reflection?

I have a comprehensive knowledge of Catholic teaching, and it is not because you claim I don’t that this is a fact? Are you omniscient?

Could you truly be evaluating your conscience correctly when you’re self-deceived about your own knowledge of the Catholic Faith?

Since I am not self-decieved, this question is pointless.

If the answer to that question is “no”, then there’s a very good reason to suspect that your atheism is not built on a clear conscience, but that there is some self-deception at work.

Well, the answer to that question isn’t no.

Of course, the answer is up to you. If you would like to inform your conscience more and have more personal growth, I would be glad to help if I can.

And you happen to know ten-tenths of Catholic teaching?

The first step is humility. That’s for all of us. We have to recognize our limits. In this case, we recognize the vast wealth of things we don’t know about the Catholic faith but we grow more over a lifetime of study and learning.

Do you also recognize the vast wealth of things you don’t know about atheism, reggie?

FYI, the very basis of Catholicism is a logical contradiction, so, even if I haven’t studied everything subtstantial about Catholic teaching, that isn’t even relevant, since I am not claiming that nothing about Catholicism is good