Are you literally on fire if you go to hell?

[atheistgirl]

You need to distinguish between “filial fear” and “servile fear.” Servile fear is what you are referring to with your example of the gangs and I agree with you that this is undesirable and that God does not wish us to fear him in this way.

On the other hand filial fear is the fear we might have when we wrong someone we love. A son might be afraid to disappoint or wrong a parent they love. This, on the other hand, is perfectly appropriate. It indicates the child’s (or our) understanding that he (or we) have done wrong and our recognition that the person we have wrong is worthy of love and respect.

That was interesting. I had to look up filial fear. Catholicism does have a very rich way with words. This article I found does seem to suggest that, while different, there is still a link between the two … there is still the underlying terror of being condemned.

Sarah x

 

[danserr]

That was interesting. I had to look up filial fear. Catholicism does have a very rich way with words. This article I found does seem to suggest that, while different, there is still a link between the two … there is still the underlying terror of being condemned.

Sarah x

That’s an interesting article. I think there can be a sense in which the two are linked. Like the author says, filial fear assumes that one is a good enough person to be in that kind of loving relationship with another person. But some people are not. A violent gang member, for example, might be incapable of filial fear (being afraid to hurt someone one loves). For a person in that position, servile fear might be the best they can manage, but it could still be a helpful first step, though God’s final goal would be for this to become filial fear.

I am sure parents would prefer their children behaved well simply because they did not want to disappoint their parents, but in spite of this parents will recognize that all children are not like that and that some children may need some threat of punishment to behave (no tv, go to your room etc.). They do this hoping that in time the children will learn to behave and want to do well not just from fear of punishment, but from fear of disappointing their parents (or anyone else they may wrong).

Remember, what God wants is that people be able to enter into a loving relationship with him. The deeper people get into this relationship, the less they will be afraid of offending God from fear of punishment and more they will be afraid of offending him because they love him and don’t want to disappoint him. I do disagree partly with the article, then. I think as filial fear increases, servile fear diminishes. I think this because as people enter more deeply into a loving relationship with God, the more they will fear to wrong or disappoint him.

Servile fear, however, suggests that one has not fully entered into a loving relationship with God. Who is in a more loving relationship with their parents, the child who obeys from fear of punishment, or the child who obeys from fear of offending their parents? In the same way, I think as people enter loving relationships with God (which he wants), their servile fear will diminish and not even be relevant. I don’t think a person in this position would feel any terror of condemnation.

 

[Warrenton]

No, we should not be afraid. We should be sensible enough not to hurt people. This has nothing to do with fear. Morality based on fear is worthless and selfish.

How can “such stuff as dreams are made of” speak in terms of “should?” That’s ludicrous.

Whether morality is selfish or not is beside the point. The question is whether its more selfish than just being selfish for selfishness’s sake.

Put in concrete terms, if I avoid stealing your money because I think its wrong, and fear punishment, is that worse than if I do steal your money because I think its jolly good sport.

Perhaps the question becomes more fun if we substitute “woman” for “money.”

 

[Vladd]

Maybe you should read this instead of believing in fairy tales.

(Where the worm dosnt die) hmmm, scientist have discovered cracks in the bottom of the ocean about 50 miles from the core of the earth ( where it’s very hot for those that do not know) gigantic woman about 15 ft long ! Could hell already be made ? Brimstone and a pool of fire, sounds like the middle of the earth and it’s opening are volcanos and the middle of the ocean floor where the worms are that obviously do not die! Just a thought:blush:

 

[hecd2]

(Where the worm dosnt die) hmmm, scientist have discovered cracks in the bottom of the ocean about 50 miles from the core of the earth ( where it’s very hot for those that do not know) gigantic **woman **about 15 ft long !

Wow! Amazon maybe? If that’s not a case for proof-reading I don’t know what is.

Alec

 

[belorg]

How can “such stuff as dreams are made of” speak in terms of “should?” That’s ludicrous.

Yeh, whenever we are incapable of understanding something, let’s call it ludicrous.
Alawys makes a reasonable discussion.

Whether morality is selfish or not is beside the point. The question is whether its more selfish than just being selfish for selfishness’s sake.

So, you can also be selfish for altruistic reasons?

Put in concrete terms, if I avoid stealing your money because I think its wrong, and fear punishment, is that worse than if I do steal your money because I think its jolly good sport.

The point is that ‘because it’s wrong’ and ‘because I fear punishment’ are two completely different reasons.

Perhaps the question becomes more fun if we substitute “woman” for “money.”

I know the Bible treats women as cattle but I don’t possess any ‘woman’. I have a wife. And she has the same rights that I have. So she can’t be ‘stolen’. She could be kidnapped and yes, in our imperfect human society, ‘fear of punishment’ can be useful sometimes. But that is not wjat we are talking about.

 

[vz71]

(Where the worm dosnt die) hmmm, scientist have discovered cracks in the bottom of the ocean about 50 miles from the core of the earth ( where it’s very hot for those that do not know) gigantic woman about 15 ft long ! Could hell already be made ? Brimstone and a pool of fire, sounds like the middle of the earth and it’s opening are volcanos and the middle of the ocean floor where the worms are that obviously do not die! Just a thought:blush:

We know that hell is eternal.
The earth (and likewise its center) is not.

But it does make for interesting thought experiments.

 

[tonyrey]

Excuse me? Where is THAT in the Catechism, that those who go to hell don’t go there ‘body and soul’ after the Last Judgment?

You are misinterpeting me. I am simply stating that their bodies are not glorified, not that they cease to have bodies…

 

[Tantum_ergo]

You are misinterpeting me. I am simply stating that their bodies are not glorified, not that they cease to have bodies…

Misunderstanding then. I thought though that they certainly would have ‘immortal’ or ‘new’ bodies. I mean, the people who go to hell are united soul and body, and they aren’t united with a ‘mortal’ body, right?

Part of it I’m sure is language. If a person thinks of ‘glorified’ as being wonderful and heaven bound, he sure isn’t going to think a person going to hell would have a ‘glorified’ body, but if a person thinks of ‘glorified’ as ‘resurrected’, then both the heaven and hell bound person would have that 'resurrected body. . .right?

 

[GEddie]

Misunderstanding then. I thought though that they certainly would have ‘immortal’ or ‘new’ bodies. I mean, the people who go to hell are united soul and body, and they aren’t united with a ‘mortal’ body, right?

Part of it I’m sure is language. If a person thinks of ‘glorified’ as being wonderful and heaven bound, he sure isn’t going to think a person going to hell would have a ‘glorified’ body, but if a person thinks of ‘glorified’ as ‘resurrected’, then both the heaven and hell bound person would have that 'resurrected body. . .right?

Correct. The eternal human body is/will be immortal, if only because human death results from physical entropy, which belongs to this universe only.

But your Heavenly pneumatikon soma will have four propensities not found in your natural human body: incorruptibility (no death or deterioration); clarity (perfection of form and appearance); impassibility (secure from suffering); and agility (able to move with the speed of the mind). Only the first of these will be available in Hell, and even then will not be comforting, as it will enable the bodies to suffer endlessly.

ICXC NIKA