Are you literally on fire if you go to hell?

[tonyrey]

And I also want you to experience the happiness of being able to think for yourself.without irrational fears.

A kind thought but a dogmatic one!

 

[belorg]

Ok, I’ll ask what I’ved asked others about this topic.

Say you are God, and infinitely good. Some of your children do terrible things on earth, and when they die, they are not sorry. They will NEVER be sorry. They spit in your eye, take pride in their evil actions, and want to continue to do their evil forever.

Now: What do you do, God? How do you deal with this? Remember, you have created these people and you love them despite their actions. . .but THEY DON’T LOVE YOU.
Do you let them keep on doing evil? That doesn’t sound very good and loving.
If you stop them, how do you do it? If you do a mind wipe on them, that isn’t loving either. You have taken away their freedom.

Once I am omniscinet, I’ll know the answer to that.

So what do you do? Remember, this is for all eternity. Because these people do not change. Ever.

Why not?

Even knowing that in their actions they are denying themselves all goodness and love and --as a consequence of not choosing good, they by DEFAULT are choosing evil and pain.

You mean the people in hell like the pain. Then it’s no problem. Why should thye ffear hell then?

You don’t get ‘neutral’ things

.

Why not?

You can’t say, “God, I don’t want your goodness, but I don’t want the natural consequence of pain and evil, either.I want to have all the fun of doing evil but none of the consequences.”

Yes, if I am truly free, I can say that.

God is JUST. (He has to be).

Says who? Isn’t God free? Why does he have to do anything?

So how do you deal with those who freely, knowingly, choose evil and pain?

Someone who wants pain forever and is happy with it? Let him have it. Then everybody is happi ever after.

 

[belorg]

You have a relationship with Vishnu and Shiva?

No, but people who do tell me it is really great.

As for the second, I already experience the happiness of thinking for myself without irrational fears. Nothing about God is irrational.

Then nobody should fear him.

 

[reggieM]

Like I said, whether the miracles are true or false is irrelevant to the existence of God.

I don’t see it that way.

Are you willing to do thta?

Yes.

Yes. But were they happy?

No.

What is so bad about that? Does God love Himself so much that he can’t stand that? True love isn’t conditional, Reggie.

God is all good, and the source of all good. We receive the gifts of life and happiness from God. We didn’t create our own being – it was given to us.
So, some minimal responsibility would be to thank God for these gifts.
To hate God is to do something very evil. It’s the hatred of good.
God loves what is good, and wants what is best for us.
To hate God is to damage ourselves – and God loves us and wants us to grow closer to Him, because that’s where eternal happiness is.

So, a person who is filled with hatred for God – is hating his creator, life itself and everything that is good.

 

[belorg]

Where in Catholic teaching does it say that God tortures people?

So hell is a place of happiness? Thejhn what is the problem?

Well, if a person does not have any fear that he could hurt or offend someone, then that’s usually a sign of a very disturbed personality.

That has nothing to do with fear.

I think you are careful about what you say – because you do have a good moral sense to fear hurting others, for example.

I don’t want to hurt people, but that has nothing to do with fear.

Fear is a sign of respect

.

No, fear has nothing to do with respect. respect and fear are two different things.

A person who lacks that is not capable of showing reverence.

A person who lacks respect, yes.

We should be afraid of damaging a sacred thing, for example.

No, we should respect sacred things.

We should be afraid of hurting a person that we love, or of committing sins.

No, we should not be afraid. We should be sensible enough not to hurt people. This has nothing to do with fear. Morality based on fear is worthless and selfish.

There’s nothing wrong with it. I’m just pointing out that you’re extending to an infinite value to draw a conclusion.

Yes,of course, but that is justified.

Are you open enough to restate and try-to-understand what you just said from a more Catholic-sympathetic perspective?
Because the way you phrased it does not reflect Catholic thinking.

Key words: “torture”, “send”.

No, I am not willing to do that. If it’s not tirture then there is nothing to fear about hell and if hell and God exist, then God sends people there. He is the judge. He may use others as policemen, maybe, but He does the judging.

 

[reggieM]

I asked:

Are you open enough to restate and try-to-understand what you just said from a more Catholic-sympathetic perspective?

You replied:

No, I am not willing to do that.

Ok, I understand. I’m not going to try to force it. Maybe we can try it another time.

 

[DihydrogenOxide]

No, we should not be afraid. We should be sensible enough not to hurt people. This has nothing to do with fear. Morality based on fear is worthless and selfish.

Semantics, semantics. What made you afraid of God?

 

[MindOverMatter2]

Morality based on fear is worthless and selfish.

Morality based on utility is no morality at all. And morality with no ground in objective reality is a delusion.

 

[atheistgirl]

Fear is a sign of respect.

That sounds a bit odd to me. It sounds like the mentality of the ‘‘gangstas’’ - we’ve all ready the horror stories of gang members killing each other because someone dared to ‘‘disrespect’’ them. These gangs instill ‘‘respect’’ through fear.

I could never respect anyone who instilled fear in me.

Sarah x

 

[MindOverMatter2]

That sounds a bit odd to me. It sounds like the mentality of the ‘‘gangstas’’ - we’ve all ready the horror stories of gang members killing each other because someone dared to ‘‘disrespect’’ them. These gangs instill ‘‘respect’’ through fear.

I could never respect anyone who instilled fear in me.

Sarah x

Is it wrong for our enemies to fear us?

 

[belorg]

Semantics, semantics. What made you afraid of God?

I am not afraid of God. But, strangely enough, some people who belivee God is all loving are still very much afraid of him.

 

[belorg]

Morality based on utility is no morality at all. And morality with no ground in objective reality is a delusion.

Who has said anything about utility or objective reality here?
I was talking about morality based on fear. Since I would not describe myself as a coward, such morality does not mean anything to me.

 

[belorg]

I asked:

Are you open enough to restate and try-to-understand what you just said from a more Catholic-sympathetic perspective?

You replied:

Ok, I understand. I’m not going to try to force it. Maybe we can try it another time.

No, I won’t try it another time. I am open enough to try to understand the truth, but I am not open enough to value the illogical apologetics of some people over the truth.

 

[MindOverMatter2]

Who has said anything about utility or objective reality here?
I was talking about morality based on fear. Since I would not describe myself as a coward, such morality does not mean anything to me.

I did not know atoms could be cowards. What objective meaning does that have?

 

[belorg]

I did not know atoms could be cowards. What objective meaning does that have?

There is lots of things we don’t know, Mind.

 

[MindOverMatter2]

There is lots of things we don’t know, Mind.

But we can know if a thing has object meaning or not. Does cowardice have objective meaning or not?

 

[belorg]

But we can know if a thing has object meaning or not. Does cowardice have objective meaning or not?

Maybe.

 

[MindOverMatter2]

Maybe.

goodbye belorg.

 

[belorg]

goodbye belorg.

Well, it turns out I am not omniscient. I am truly sorry to disappoint you.

 

[danserr]

That sounds a bit odd to me. It sounds like the mentality of the ‘‘gangstas’’ - we’ve all ready the horror stories of gang members killing each other because someone dared to ‘‘disrespect’’ them. These gangs instill ‘‘respect’’ through fear.

I could never respect anyone who instilled fear in me.

Sarah x

You need to distinguish between “filial fear” and “servile fear.” Servile fear is what you are referring to with your example of the gangs and I agree with you that this is undesirable and that God does not wish us to fear him in this way.

On the other hand filial fear is the fear we might have when we wrong someone we love. A son might be afraid to disappoint or wrong a parent they love. This, on the other hand, is perfectly appropriate. It indicates the child’s (or our) understanding that he (or we) have done wrong and our recognition that the person we have wrong is worthy of love and respect.