Are you literally on fire if you go to hell?

[reggieM]

It’s interesting also to think about “a new heaven and a new earth”.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

…Thats okay so long as we can agree that its not a physical lake of fire; otherwise we are going to have to agree to disagree. But the rest of what you said was interesting and not too far fetched. Although, it would have been better if you had said that God permits their suffering at the hands of demons because they freely choose that situation, rather than handing them over as a “right” that the devils have earned.

The one thing that clarifies to me that the people in hell are tormented by demons, is the fact that God permits demonic possession in this world; but to a limited degree. Although maybe somebody has an argument against that? Does God really allow unlimited torture; are there no boundaries or limitations to what the demons can do to humans and one another?

I am reluctant.

Why (I’m still asking) are you reluctant to believe in a physical lake of fire?

Aren’t physical things going to exist (hint, yes, Scripture says so.)

So why would a physical lake of fire be UNACCEPTABLE torture but an eternal ‘spiritual’ fire wouldn’t be???

 

[Tantum_ergo]

The effects of hell would occur in quite a different way from the effects of heaven! The body wouldn’t be glorified for a start…

Excuse me? Where is THAT in the Catechism, that those who go to hell don’t go there ‘body and soul’ after the Last Judgment?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I know it might not seem like it, but I believe many of the people you encounter of CAF are praying for you. You’re not just a non-entity to the Catholics here (or at least, most I hope).

I realize that may not help much to know that, but if we’ve received love and blessing from God, we want others to have it abundantly also.

Thanks for your thoughts and insights – I appreciate it.

I’ll join you here on this. Absolutely. In fact when I read to this point in the thread, I said a prayer. Because God does care for each and every one of us. . .and especially so when it ‘seems’ like He is far away. But it sure is hard to go through this ‘dark night’ especially if we’re feeling all alone. I will pray extra hard for you to be able to ‘feel’ God’s love. His teaching is such a joy when we ‘allow’ ourselves to open up fully to it. God bless.

 

[belorg]

The lives of the saints teach a lot about the existence of God. True, I only know a small amount about the saints but I can see a variety of teachings and events that have to be answered. All it takes is for one, of hundreds and thousands of supernatural events of the saints to be true – and then that’s something to deal with. If one miracle is true – if just one of the thousands of saints was correct in his or her belief about the transforming power of God – then that will change everything.

If one of the miracles of Islam, of Hinduism, of Sai Baab is true, thehn that will change everything too

One alternative is to simply dismiss it all as being false, without ever researching it.
But could you really say that you’re “certain” that all of those miracles are false?

No, but I couldn’t say I am certain that the ‘miracles’ of Sai Baba are all false either. What I can say for certain, however, is that the Christian God (or at least the most common variety of Christian Gods) is logically impossible. So even if every single miracle were true, then it would be true that some force or some entity with lots of unknown powers existed, but it would still be true that the Christian God didn’t exist.

Catholic practice is part of the learning. Catholicism is a way of life.

Once you are in that ‘way of life’ you are in great dangerv of losing your opne mind.

When you live the life, you also discover much more proof for the existence of God. If you ignore that evidence or have never looked for it (by never becoming proficient) – then how can you be certain that atheism is correct? You would be lacking essential knowledge.

I knwo for certain that things which are logically impossible do not exist. The rest is futile.

Ok, but point I’m getting at is that there are an immense amount of evidence proving the existence of God. To be certain that atheism is true it’s important to investigate all of the evidence that supports the existence of God.

That is false.

The two ideas are not the same, really. Atheism is a denial of the existence of God, in its essence. That’s basically what it is.
Catholicism is not, in its essence, a denial of Atheism. Catholicism proposes something positive and real – something to learn about and also to live and experience.

So does Hinduism etc.

I know it might not seem like it, but I believe many of the people you encounter of CAF are praying for you. You’re not just a non-entity to the Catholics here (or at least, most I hope).

I don’t doubt people’s good intentions, Reggie, and I don’t douibt you are a good guy. it’s not you I am talking about, it’s God.

I realize that may not help much to know that, but if we’ve received love and blessing from God, we want others to have it abundantly also.

If that is really true (and I believe it is) , there is no way you can actually believe in hell.

Thanks for your thoughts and insights – I appreciate it.

Likewise, Reggie.

 

[belorg]

I know it might not seem like it, but I believe many of the people you encounter of CAF are praying for you. You’re not just a non-entity to the Catholics here (or at least, most I hope).

I realize that may not help much to know that, but if we’ve received love and blessing from God, we want others to have it abundantly also.

Thanks for your thoughts and insights – I appreciate it.

I’ll join you here on this. Absolutely. In fact when I read to this point in the thread, I said a prayer. Because God does care for each and every one of us. . .and especially so when it ‘seems’ like He is far away. But it sure is hard to go through this ‘dark night’ especially if we’re feeling all alone. I will pray extra hard for you to be able to ‘feel’ God’s love. His teaching is such a joy when we ‘allow’ ourselves to open up fully to it. God bless.

I appreciate your efforts, gentlemen (or ladies) but I can assure you I am not going through some hard night at all. In fact I am quite happy.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Belorg, my friend.

What exactly is an ‘open’ mind?

If a mind is completely ‘open’, wouldn’t everything just fall right through it like a sieve?

Surely the mind must ‘close’ over certain truths, right?

I mean, if I said, "well, I understand the force of gravity, but I’ll keep an open mind that if I step off this 100 foot cliff that I’ll be able to stay up in the air’. . .um, the result won’t be good.

So saying I have an ‘open mind’ meaning that I don’t accept a ‘final word’ would mean that I could never fully accept a truth. . .because nothing would ever be ‘100%’ final because if it WERE, I wouldn’t have an ‘open mind’ about it.

And why is it if a person studies something from all angles, and accepts it as true, HE is called brainwashed? It is only the person who studies a concept and then says, "I’m not convinced’ who is said to have an open mind, as if only ‘rejecting’ concepts or ‘not accepting concepts’ is wise.

And if I ‘reject’ a concept (with my ‘open mind’), aren’t I espousing something? Haven’t I ‘closed my mind’ to the concept I’m rejecting?

I’m just asking because like many little old ladies I might not be ‘hip’ to modern ideas.

 

[belorg]

Exactly. I find that very frightening, especially for the children being misinformed.

Jesus really suffered – severely! He did so for a reason.

I think it all goes together. The same people who think everybody goes to heaven, also want to get rid of crucifixes because they supposedly frighten people.

They also think that confession is unnecessary because we’re all basically good, etc.

Ok, maybe some priests were too vehement in the old days. But this is an extreme over-reaction that is probably causing far more damage.

I don’t think so. I have nothing against people who believe, but I do take issue with people who impose an irrational fear on people.
It’s all very simp^e: if God is al good, then hell, whether physical or spiritual canot possibly exist.

 

[GEddie]

Excuse me? Where is THAT in the Catechism, that those who go to hell don’t go there ‘body and soul’ after the Last Judgment?

He didn’t say that; he said that the bodies in Hell would not be glorified. Big difference.

The pneumatikon soma of Heaven is impassible; the body of one in Hell is completely passible.

The pneumatikon soma is agile; contrast the “bound hands and feet” of the rejected guest in our LORD’s parable.

Etc.

ICXC NIKA

 

[GEddie]

Why (I’m still asking) are you reluctant to believe in a physical lake of fire?

Aren’t physical things going to exist (hint, yes, Scripture says so.)

So why would a physical lake of fire be UNACCEPTABLE torture but an eternal ‘spiritual’ fire wouldn’t be???

Possibly because “spiritual fire” is a contradiction in terms, and can therefore be safely dismissed, while a physical fire is a searing reality, whatever we may think of it?

ICXC NIKA

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I appreciate your efforts, gentlemen (or ladies) but I can assure you I am not going through some hard night at all. In fact I am quite happy.

Little old lady here, sonnie (or my dear young lady). . .and I’m sure you have a lot of happy experiences in your life which you cherish (and well you should.) But if you’re missing out on the ultimate truth of life (and I believe you are), you are missing out on the ultimate happiness of a human being, in this life and the next. . .and it’s the joy or happiness of the relationship with Christ that I think you’re missing. Knowing how transcendently wonderful this is, I want YOU to have that relationship as well.

 

[reggieM]

… I do take issue with people who impose an irrational fear on people.

I think what we’re showing is that the fear is quite rational. The idea of justice itself requires reason to understand and to implement. Where there is a lack of justice, there is a lack of reason.

Additionally, where there is a complete lack of fear, then there would be a lack of justice and of morality.

It’s all very simple: if God is all good, then hell, whether physical or spiritual canot possibly exist.

You make that assertion because you have in mind what it is to be “all good”. If you think about that, then your mind is extending to the infinite.

 

[belorg]

Belorg, my friend.

What exactly is an ‘open’ mind?

An open mind is a mind that is willing to consider all the evidence

If a mind is completely ‘open’, wouldn’t everything just fall right through it like a sieve?

By ‘open’ I don’t mean ‘gullible’

Surely the mind must ‘close’ over certain truths, right?

To a certain extent, yes. But then it must be clear beyond reasonble doubt that something is true.

I mean, if I said, "well, I understand the force of gravity, but I’ll keep an open mind that if I step off this 100 foot cliff that I’ll be able to stay up in the air’. . .um, the result won’t be good.

Well, maybe if you pray enough? This is not sarcastic BTW. God can overrule the laws of gravity, can’t He?

So saying I have an ‘open mind’ meaning that I don’t accept a ‘final word’ would mean that I could never fully accept a truth. . .because nothing would ever be ‘100%’ final because if it WERE, I wouldn’t have an ‘open mind’ about it.

Well, as a matter of fact, nothing can be 100% final.

And why is it if a person studies something from all angles, and accepts it as true, HE is called brainwashed?

O don’t know. Who says he is?

It is only the person who studies a concept and then says, "I’m not convinced’ who is said to have an open mind, as if only ‘rejecting’ concepts or ‘not accepting concepts’ is wise.

Well, yes, it is wise to keep an open mind about things about which there is no conclusive proof. If people hadn’t done that in the past, then we would not have the knowledge we have now.

And if I ‘reject’ a concept (with my ‘open mind’), aren’t I espousing something? Haven’t I ‘closed my mind’ to the concept I’m rejecting?

Yes, of course. But don’t you reject the existence of square circles?

I’m just asking because like many little old ladies I might not be ‘hip’ to modern ideas.

My ideas are by no means modern. They are ancient in fact.

 

[belorg]

I think what we’re showing is that the fear is quite rational. The idea of justice itself requires reason to understand and to implement. Where there is a lack of justice, there is a lack of reason.

There is no justice in torturing people for eternity.

Additionally, where there is a complete lack of fear, then there would be a lack of justice and of morality.

If your sense of morality is based on fear, then O truly pity you. Mine isn’t.

You make that assertion because you have in mind what it is to be “all good”. If you think about that, then your mind is extending to the infinite.

If I ‘assert’ that 1000 is not the highest number, my mind is also ‘extending to the infinite’. What is wrong with that? It’s done all the time by philosophers and theologians and scientists.
‘All good’ is the same as ‘infinitely good’, and I know for a fact that** I** would never send my son to a place of eternal torture no matter what he has done wrong. And I am just ‘a little bit’ good. to say that an infintely good father would send his sons and daughters to such a place (or such a state) is just completely incoherent.

 

[reggieM]

No, but I couldn’t say I am certain that the ‘miracles’ of Sai Baba are all false either.

Then you were wrong to say that you have enough knowledge to know that God does not exist. Here you believe that it’s possible that one of those miracles is true. You do not have enough knowledge to conclude that they are all false.

So even if every single miracle were true, then it would be true that some force or some entity with lots of unknown powers existed, but it would still be true that the Christian God didn’t exist.

Ok – that would be worth thinking about.

If that is really true (and I believe it is) , there is no way you can actually believe in hell.

Sadly, I have seen some people willingly choose a path of evil and hatred. Many choose to love themselves over anything else. Some even develop a hatred for God.

Likewise, Reggie.

Thanks

 

[belorg]

Little old lady here, sonnie (or my dear young lady). . .and I’m sure you have a lot of happy experiences in your life which you cherish (and well you should.) But if you’re missing out on the ultimate truth of life (and I believe you are), you are missing out on the ultimate happiness of a human being, in this life and the next. . .and it’s the joy or happiness of the relationship with Christ that I think you’re missing. Knowing how transcendently wonderful this is, I want YOU to have that relationship as well.

Well, you are missing the joy and hppiness of the relationship with Vishnu and Shiva too, so I guess, we can’t have it all.
And I also want you to experience the happiness of being able to think for yourself.without irrational fears.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

There is no justice in torturing people for eternity.

Torture is inflicted by ‘another’ on a person who doesn’t wish for the action. Is a person who freely chooses --even demands–something, even something painful–being tortured? God is not the one ‘torturing’ souls. . .

If your sense of morality is based on fear, then O truly pity you. Mine isn’t. My sense of morality is based on truth. . . and the truth is, God is love. However, love is not necessarily limited to the human idea that love can ONLY involve ‘giving good things’. (Any of us who have raised children know that if our children didn’t ‘fear’ the consequences of certain actions, because we taught them rightly, then no matter how many material goods and endearments we showered on them, we did not truly ‘love’ them.)

If I ‘assert’ that 1000 is not the highest number, my mind is also ‘extending to the infinite’. What is wrong with that? It’s done all the time by philosophers and theologians and scientists.
‘All good’ is the same as ‘infinitely good’, and I know for a fact that** I** would never send my son to a place of eternal torture no matter what he has done wrong. And I am just ‘a little bit’ good. to say that an infintely good father would send his sons and daughters to such a place (or such a state) is just completely incoherent.

Ok, I’ll ask what I’ved asked others about this topic.

Say you are God, and infinitely good. Some of your children do terrible things on earth, and when they die, they are not sorry. They will NEVER be sorry. They spit in your eye, take pride in their evil actions, and want to continue to do their evil forever.

Now: What do you do, God? How do you deal with this? Remember, you have created these people and you love them despite their actions. . .but THEY DON’T LOVE YOU.

Do you let them keep on doing evil? That doesn’t sound very good and loving.
If you stop them, how do you do it? If you do a mind wipe on them, that isn’t loving either. You have taken away their freedom.

So what do you do? Remember, this is for all eternity. Because these people do not change. Ever. Even knowing that in their actions they are denying themselves all goodness and love and --as a consequence of not choosing good, they by DEFAULT are choosing evil and pain. You don’t get ‘neutral’ things. You can’t say, “God, I don’t want your goodness, but I don’t want the natural consequence of pain and evil, either. I want to have all the fun of doing evil but none of the consequences.”

God is JUST. (He has to be).

So how do you deal with those who freely, knowingly, choose evil and pain?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Well, you are missing the joy and hppiness of the relationship with Vishnu and Shiva too, so I guess, we can’t have it all.
And I also want you to experience the happiness of being able to think for yourself.without irrational fears.

You have a relationship with Vishnu and Shiva? I thought you didn’t believe in any god, but if you have a relationship with some kind of deity at least you’re on the path to finding truth.

As for the second, I already experience the happiness of thinking for myself without irrational fears. Nothing about God is irrational.

 

[belorg]

Then you were wrong to say that you have enough knowledge to know that God does not exist. Here you believe that it’s possible that one of those miracles is true. You do not have enough knowledge to conclude that they are all false.

Like I said, whether the miracles are true or false is irrelevant to the existence of God.

Ok – that would be worth thinking about.

Are you willing to do thta?

Sadly, I have seen some people willingly choose a path of evil and hatred.

Yes. But were they happy?

Many choose to love themselves over anything else. Some even develop a hatred for God.

What is so bad about that? Does God love Himself so much that he can’t stand that? True love isn’t conditional, Reggie.

 

[reggieM]

There is no justice in torturing people for eternity.

Where in Catholic teaching does it say that God tortures people?

If your sense of morality is based on fear, then O truly pity you. Mine isn’t.

Well, if a person does not have any fear that he could hurt or offend someone, then that’s usually a sign of a very disturbed personality. I think you are careful about what you say – because you do have a good moral sense to fear hurting others, for example.

Fear is a sign of respect. A person who lacks that is not capable of showing reverence.
We should be afraid of damaging a sacred thing, for example.
We should be afraid of hurting a person that we love, or of committing sins.

If I ‘assert’ that 1000 is not the highest number, my mind is also ‘extending to the infinite’. What is wrong with that? It’s done all the time by philosophers and theologians and scientists.

There’s nothing wrong with it. I’m just pointing out that you’re extending to an infinite value to draw a conclusion.

‘All good’ is the same as ‘infinitely good’, and I know for a fact that** I** would never send my son to a place of eternal torture no matter what he has done wrong. And I am just ‘a little bit’ good. to say that an infintely good father would send his sons and daughters to such a place (or such a state) is just completely incoherent.

Are you open enough to restate and try-to-understand what you just said from a more Catholic-sympathetic perspective?
Because the way you phrased it does not reflect Catholic thinking.

Key words: “torture”, “send”.