Are you offended/disturbed by female clergy in Protestantism?

[Eric_Hilbert]

edited due to moderator

 

[PRmerger]

Folks, when you see a troll hijacking a thread, report them, don’t answer them.
Thanks.

I’ve been on the forums a long time and I really don’t understand how someone can “smell out” a troll.

How does one know whether it’s someone just being confrontational (is that what a troll is?) or someone who just doesn’t know how to ask questions in a charitable way but whose posts reflect a real question?

 

[CMatt25]

No more than I am offended by Priscilla and Aquila explaining to Apollos the Way of God more accurately in Acts 18. Nor more than I am by women speaking in churches today opposite the custom of Paul found in 1 Cor 14:34. Which means I am not offended at all.

 

[Robertanthony]

Whenever I see something sacred and noble being disrespected, it bothers me : same-sex partners having kids and calling it a family, two lesbians having kids and being both referred to as “mom”, surrogate mothers, and women who enter priesthood (not real priesthood, anyhow, but what comes closest) not because God willed women to be priests but because the priesthood is seen as one of the last male bastions to be conquered. Underlying all this is a sense of entitlement, who-are-you-to-tell-me-I-can’t sort of thing. Not much humility and obedience to be found there.

 

[CMatt25]

Just because you “do not care” doesn’t make it right. It is our problem because it goes against the Church’s teaching. Some non-catholics believe in abortion and this goes against our teachings so you see, we do have a problem with it.

True but in that case neither does it necessarily make it right or a problem because your faith says it is. Protestants have their faith. Faithful Catholics have theirs in what the Church interprets Herself to be. And so on faith goes.

 

[Cat]

I wrote that it doesn’t matter to me that some Protestants “ordain” women, and it doesn’t. They can’t “ordain” at all. They lack the authority to ordain. What matters to me is that that all non-Catholic organizations wound the Body of Christ by the fact that they exist – period.

Jim Dandy
Ex-Protestant, ex-agnostic, ex-atheist, ecstatic to be Catholic!

I would be careful with this line of thought.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church makes it clear that Protestants are our separated brothers and sisters in Christ, and have a hope of obtaining eternal life. The CCC states that all non-Catholic Christian churches have a “portion” of the Gospel.

Speaking as an ex-Protestant, I can state that my upbringing and experiences in the Protestant churches helped me to find my way home to the Catholic Church. Because of all the excellent Bible teaching I received from Protestant teachers and pastors, I was able to recognize Jesus in the Eucharist when I first started attending Mass at our neighborhood Catholic parish, and I was able to see that the Catholic Church is the Church that teaches and practices the Bible word-for-word.

One other thing that the CCC teaches is that Catholics are to be diligent to continue to open doors and maintain a dialogue with Protestants.

I respectfully suggest that your statement about the existence of the non-Catholic organizations wounding the Body of Christ is hurtful and does not serve to maintain a dialogue between yourself and Protestants. Instead, it would more than likely cause non-Catholic Christians to turn away from you and possibly from the Catholic Church.

I humbly suggest that perhaps a more peaceful, charitable, and conciliatory approach will accomplish what you and all of us want to see–a return of Protestants to Holy Mother Church.

I think you can see from my posts that I am not a liberal or a wimp, and I’m not suggesting that you back down from speaking out against untruths and incorrect teaching when someone asks you straight out (as the OP did in this thread). I’m just suggesting that you ease up on the harshness, and above all, refrain from saying things that seem to be not quite what what the Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches.

 

[CMatt25]

I would be careful with this line of thought.

I respectfully suggest that your statement about the existence of the non-Catholic organizations wounding the Body of Christ is hurtful and does not serve to maintain a dialogue between yourself and Protestants. Instead, it would more than likely cause non-Catholic Christians to turn away from you and possibly from the Catholic Church.

I agree. I would also point out Catholics accept the Baptisms celebrated by many of these “non- ordained” clergy. Even in cases where there was not imminent death.

 

[PRmerger]

I agree. I would also point out Catholics accept the Baptisms celebrated by many of these “non- ordained” clergy. Even in cases where there was not imminent death.

Indeed. The church even accepts baptism by lay people (notwithstanding the issue that, really, non-ordained clergy are, essentially, lay).

 

[CMatt25]

Indeed. The church even accepts baptism by lay people (notwithstanding the issue that, really, non-ordained clergy are, essentially, lay).

Yes PR She does. But aren’t lay people who are not considered clergy by Protestant ecclesial communities, encouraged only to baptize incase of immediate necessity such as imminent danger to the life of the one not baptized? Whereas non-ordained clergy of ecclesial communities baptize far more.

 

[CMatt25]

What you might choose to opine or judge regarding what I am “back to” and to dismiss as “odd reasoning” or “games of semantics”, I might see as neither “odd” nor “games” or “semantics” but simply as possible contraditions I personally might see in the Catholic faith. But God bless and peace.

 

[Anna_Scott]

I would be careful with this line of thought.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church makes it clear that Protestants are our separated brothers and sisters in Christ, and have a hope of obtaining eternal life. The CCC states that all non-Catholic Christian churches have a “portion” of the Gospel.

Speaking as an ex-Protestant, I can state that my upbringing and experiences in the Protestant churches helped me to find my way home to the Catholic Church. Because of all the excellent Bible teaching I received from Protestant teachers and pastors, I was able to recognize Jesus in the Eucharist when I first started attending Mass at our neighborhood Catholic parish, and I was able to see that the Catholic Church is the Church that teaches and practices the Bible word-for-word.

One other thing that the CCC teaches is that Catholics are to be diligent to continue to open doors and maintain a dialogue with Protestants.

I respectfully suggest that your statement about the existence of the non-Catholic organizations wounding the Body of Christ is hurtful and does not serve to maintain a dialogue between yourself and Protestants. Instead, it would more than likely cause non-Catholic Christians to turn away from you and possibly from the Catholic Church.

I humbly suggest that perhaps a more peaceful, charitable, and conciliatory approach will accomplish what you and all of us want to see–a return of Protestants to Holy Mother Church.

I think you can see from my posts that I am not a liberal or a wimp, and I’m not suggesting that you back down from speaking out against untruths and incorrect teaching when someone asks you straight out (as the OP did in this thread). I’m just suggesting that you ease up on the harshness, and above all, refrain from saying things that seem to be not quite what what the Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches.

Cat,

I really appreciate your response to Jim Dandy. I have learned so much from charitable Catholics who explained their faith without condescension.

Peace and Blessings,
Anna

 

[hartleymartin]

What is surprising me most at the moment is that no-one here has made any response (either support or refute) of the biblical references I made to Genesis, The Levite Priesthood, and to the Bishops/Priests/Deacons in the new testament.

 

[John7]

found this interesting bit of trivia. it’s a bit dated, from 2000

Women make up about 18.7 percent of the ELCA’s active or non-retired
clergy – 2,315 of 12,363. About 13.5 percent of all ELCA clergy were women
– 2,387 of 17,664 – at the end of 1999. About 49 percent of Lutherans pursuing
a master’s of divinity in ELCA seminaries are women.

wfn.org/2000/05/msg00020.html

 

[Roy5]

** I believe that ordaining women is fine**. Jesus came in a patriarchal age, evident from much in the Old Testament, but Christ tried to give women a higher status in society. It always surprises me that Catholicism seems to dead-set against ordaining women, yet enter just about any Catholic Church and you immediately catch sight of a statue of Mary!

**There are a number of women pastors in this community, in at least local Methodist, Episcopal, Baptist and Lutheran churches**. Like the men, some have more pastoral skills than others. Some are better preachers than others. Some denominations - like the Presbyterians, Congregationalists, and Methodists - have been ordaining women since the 1950s. They are one reason these denominations have an adequate number of ministers.

** The Catholic Church should ordain women.** I find nothing in scripture that forbids that specifically. except perhaps the admonition of St. Paul that women should be silent in the churches (II Tim. 2:11-12). Catholicism ignores that already as they have women read the scriptures. And as for women bit teaching, consider Mother Angelica along with many, many others. And Catholicism changed its stance on women coverng their heads as they pray, too,again called for by St. Paul in I Cor. 11:3. And what about St. Paul saying that women should not braid their hair, or wear gold or pearls or costly apparel? What Catholic accepts that part of the ‘Word of God’?

** This is where tradition can play a negtaive role in Catholicism.** Just because it wasn’t done in the ancient church it can’t be done now. Sheer foolishness. I suspect that they used to segregate women at Mass some centuries ago. That tradition was dropped. I have already referred to other traditions that were scuttled. This harkening back to the past as setting eternal restriction on certain positive changes hurts the church.

** My concern re woman ordination is a bit different.** I worry that the ministry may become majority women, and that does not bode for the further. Many men already see the church (especially in some parts of the world) as mainly for women and children, and if the ministry becomes majority female this attitude could be reenforced.

** I come from a mixed Catholic/Protestant lineage,** am committed to ecumenism and a spirit of reconciliation, and a mutual respect for differences that exist. It troubles me that there remains so much bitterness, as abundantly evident by th attacks upon Protestantism here on CAF, 500 years after the Reformation and a half-century after Vatican II. Whatever our differences, we still have the same God and seek to follow the path set before us by the same Christ. Our common faith should become a bridge rather than remain a barrier. This doesn’t mean church union (one church) but it does require a feeling of Christian unity.

 

[JohnnyReb]

** I believe that ordaining women is fine**. Jesus came in a patriarchal age, evident from much in the Old Testament, but Christ tried to give women a higher status in society. It always surprises me that Catholicism seems to dead-set against ordaining women, yet enter just about any Catholic Church and you immediately catch sight of a statue of Mary

However, Mary did not play a priestly role in the church at all.

B]There are a number of women pastors in this community, in at least local Methodist, Episcopal, Baptist and Lutheran churches

. Like the men, some have more pastoral skills than others. Some are better preachers than others. Some denominations - like the Presbyterians, Congregationalists, and Methodists - have been ordaining women since the 1950s. They are one reason these denominations have an adequate number of ministers.

True. I have been blessed by the ministry of both men and women too.

** The Catholic Church should ordain women.** I find nothing in scripture that forbids that specifically. except perhaps the admonition of St. Paul that women should be silent in the churches (II Tim. 2:11-12). Catholicism ignores that already as they have women read the scriptures. And as for women bit teaching, consider Mother Angelica along with many, many others. And Catholicism changed its stance on women coverng their heads as they pray, too,again called for by St. Paul in I Cor. 11:3. And what about St. Paul saying that women should not braid their hair, or wear gold or pearls or costly apparel? What Catholic accepts that part of the ‘Word of God’?

Isn’t it interesting that the original context of 2 Tim 2:11-12 is about women speaking and teaching in the church, not the priesthood. In fact, the priesthood is not even mentioned at all in the verses. You point out an excellent point about the appearent contradiction.

** This is where tradition can play a negtaive role in Catholicism.** Just because it wasn’t done in the ancient church it can’t be done now. Sheer foolishness. I suspect that they used to segregate women at Mass some centuries ago. That tradition was dropped. I have already referred to other traditions that were scuttled. This harkening back to the past as setting eternal restriction on certain positive changes hurts the church.

Well the RCC is selective on that too, but don’t tell them that. Appearently the assumption of mary and transubstantion were believed by the ancient church.

** My concern re woman ordination is a bit different.** I worry that the ministry may become majority women, and that does not bode for the further. Many men already see the church (especially in some parts of the world) as mainly for women and children, and if the ministry becomes majority female this attitude could be reenforced.

** I come from a mixed Catholic/Protestant lineage,** am committed to ecumenism and a spirit of reconciliation, and a mutual respect for differences that exist. It troubles me that there remains so much bitterness, as abundantly evident by th attacks upon Protestantism here on CAF, 500 years after the Reformation and a half-century after Vatican II. Whatever our differences, we still have the same God and seek to follow the path set before us by the same Christ. Our common faith should become a bridge rather than remain a barrier. This doesn’t mean church union (one church) but it does require a feeling of Christian unity.

True.

 

[hosemonkey]

** I believe that ordaining women is fine**

. Jesus came in a patriarchal age, evident from much in the Old Testament, but Christ tried to give women a higher status in society. It always surprises me that Catholicism seems to dead-set against ordaining women, yet enter just about any Catholic Church and you immediately catch sight of a statue of Mary!

**There are a number of women pastors in this community, in at least local Methodist, Episcopal, Baptist and Lutheran churches**. Like the men, some have more pastoral skills than others. Some are better preachers than others. Some denominations - like the Presbyterians, Congregationalists, and Methodists - have been ordaining women since the 1950s. They are one reason these denominations have an adequate number of ministers.

** The Catholic Church should ordain women.** I find nothing in scripture that forbids that specifically. except perhaps the admonition of St. Paul that women should be silent in the churches (II Tim. 2:11-12). Catholicism ignores that already as they have women read the scriptures. And as for women bit teaching, consider Mother Angelica along with many, many others. And Catholicism changed its stance on women coverng their heads as they pray, too,again called for by St. Paul in I Cor. 11:3. And what about St. Paul saying that women should not braid their hair, or wear gold or pearls or costly apparel? What Catholic accepts that part of the ‘Word of God’?

** This is where tradition can play a negtaive role in Catholicism.** Just because it wasn’t done in the ancient church it can’t be done now. Sheer foolishness. I suspect that they used to segregate women at Mass some centuries ago. That tradition was dropped. I have already referred to other traditions that were scuttled. This harkening back to the past as setting eternal restriction on certain positive changes hurts the church.

** My concern re woman ordination is a bit different.** I worry that the ministry may become majority women, and that does not bode for the further. Many men already see the church (especially in some parts of the world) as mainly for women and children, and if the ministry becomes majority female this attitude could be reenforced.

** I come from a mixed Catholic/Protestant lineage,** am committed to ecumenism and a spirit of reconciliation, and a mutual respect for differences that exist. It troubles me that there remains so much bitterness, as abundantly evident by th attacks upon Protestantism here on CAF, 500 years after the Reformation and a half-century after Vatican II. Whatever our differences, we still have the same God and seek to follow the path set before us by the same Christ. Our common faith should become a bridge rather than remain a barrier. This doesn’t mean church union (one church) but it does require a feeling of Christian unity.

The Holy Father (Pope John Paul II) has spoken definitively on this subject. He stated that the Church does not possess the power nor authority to ordain women. Full stop.

 

[PRmerger]

Yes PR She does. But aren’t lay people who are not considered clergy by Protestant ecclesial communities, encouraged only to baptize incase of immediate necessity such as imminent danger to the life of the one not baptized? Whereas non-ordained clergy of ecclesial communities baptize far more.

Tis true what you say.

 

[PRmerger]

What you might choose to opine or judge regarding what I am “back to” and to dismiss as “odd reasoning” or “games of semantics”, I might see as neither “odd” nor “games” or “semantics” but simply as possible contraditions I personally might see in the Catholic faith. But God bless and peace.

Why is it a contradiction?

Non-catholic clergy can baptize their folks. Catholics have priests/deacons to be the normative way our folks are baptized.

Where’s the contradiction?

 

[Anna_Scott]

However, Mary did not play a priestly role in the church at all. . . . .True. I have been blessed by the ministry of both men and women too. . . . .

**Hey JohnnyReb,

I know your response was not addressed to me, but thought this was a good place to enter the discussion.

I honestly haven’t completely decided what I believe about women serving as Priests. I grew up in Southern Baptist Churches and they will not ordain women. Though Anglican, I’ve had no experience with women Priests. There are none at my Parish.

There are a number of Scriptures that deal with women. I’ve read books by Biblical scholars regarding the transmission of Scripture and the variants among the many manuscripts and the possibility of “interpolations” in Scripture, some having to do with forbidding women to speak or serve in Church. In such case, “interpolations” would serve to keep women in a submissive role within a society that still viewed women as property. Since I’m not a Biblical scholar, I can’t say which of the scholars is actually correct.

However, I can look at Scripture and see what things are still practiced today and what things are not, and it’s all a bit puzzling to me.
**
**1 Timothy 2: 11 Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. **

**Are women allowed to speak in any capacity in a Catholic Church?

It seems not all the Biblical requirements and restrictions for women or even men still remain, even in the Catholic Church.
**
1 Corinthians Chapter 11: 1 Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ. 2 Now I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I delivered them to you. 3 But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.

1 Corinthians Chapter 11: 4 Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head, 5 but every wife who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, since it is the same as if her head were shaven.

Why do Catholic Priests, Bishops, including the Pope, wear Vestments that include head coverings?

Why do women no longer cover their heads during Mass. And in this passage, where are the wife and the husband doing the praying and prophesying?

1 Corinthians Chapter 11: 6 For if a wife will not cover her head, then she should cut her hair short. But since it is disgraceful for a wife to cut off her hair or shave her head, let her cover her head.

Why do Catholic women have short hair today? Again, why do they not cover their heads?

1 Corinthians Chapter 11: 7 For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God, but woman is the glory of man.

Again–Catholic Vestments cover the heads of Priests and Bishops.

1 Corinthians Chapter 11: 8 For man was not made from woman, but woman from man. 9 Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. 10 That is why a wife ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels.

Here, the “angels” are given as another reason for women to cover their heads. Does this refer to fallen angels who begat the Nephilim?

Genesis 6: 4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown.

Do women still need to worry about this?

1 Corinthians Chapter 11: 11 Nevertheless, in the Lord woman is not independent of man nor man of woman; 12 for as woman was made from man, so man is now born of woman. And all things are from God.

1 Corinthians Chapter 11: 13 Judge for yourselves: is it proper for a wife to pray to God with her head uncovered?

Again with the head coverings.

1 Corinthians Chapter 11: 14 Does not nature itself teach you that if a man wears long hair it is a disgrace for him, 15 but if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For her hair is given to her for a covering.

Are Catholic men allowed to have long hair? Are Catholic women allowed to have short hair?

1 Corinthians Chapter 11: 16 If anyone is inclined to be contentious, we have no such practice, nor do the churches of God.

**Does not following all these things mean one is contentious, as this passage suggests? I have thought about the passages about women for a long time (1 Timothy 2; 1 Peter 3; 1 Corinthians 7; 1 Corinthians 11; 1 Corinthians 14; Titus 2, etc.) and I really don’t understand why some restrictions “stuck” and some didn’t.

Hope for some helpful responses.

Peace,
Anna**

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I have no patience for or respect for women’s ordination in the least. I find it absurd, innovative, ahistorical, based on bad theology, an affront to the sacerdotal ministry, and intolerable to even watch. It was and is the main thing that drove me batty as an Anglican. It’s outrageous.