I disagree. Everything that is truly beautiful is a reflection and illustration of something which is true.Haha well I am a strange person. I admit it.
But what I mean is that I understand the Catholic theology of Holy Orders. I think it is a compelling and beautiful notion, and priestesses are logically and aesthetically incompatible with it. But what is beautiful is not necessarily true.
Yes, I’ve noticed this, too.
I am not offended but I am often amazed. My family is nearly all Protestant, I have been shocked by many things I’ve seen in their various communions. When you boil it all down, and this sounds horribly unecumenical, but the whole basis of Protestantism is a “roll your own” religion. Probably a female in clerics clothing is one of the lesser innovations. You ever seen a confetti cannon? It’s a neat addition to the lazer light show at worship time. What’s a roman collar here or there among such innovations?
I made no argument that celibacy is the root of the abuse. I simply pointed out that abuse is much less common among Protestant clergy. Why remains an open question. Sexual abuse does happen among Protestants but is much, much less common. And regarding ways to avoid abuse, don’t put words into my mouth. I said nothing about ways to avoid abuse. Believe me, the seminaries are exploring every option and have been doing so for some time. And most of the abuse also involved* pre-adolescent boys* in whom it did the most damage, not just adolescents,Actually you completely missed the point.
Your argument was that celibacy is the root of the abuse. I said you are wrong, because even in protestant denominations where marriage is allowed sexual abuse happens as well.
Or take for example the statistics. Most of the sexual abuse do not involve women but teenage boys. Are you advocating that to avoid the abuse of teenage boys we should allow homosexuality in clergy and that they should be allowed to marry teenage boys? Ooops, I forgot that some denominations have actually gone down that depraved path.
Roy knows that there’s no ‘conversing’ with this crowd.Yes, I’ve noticed this, too.
Roy, is it possible that you are not comfortable using the QUOTE feature and that is the reason you do not actually participate in dialogue on the CAFs? If this is the reason, I suggest you visit this thread to learn how to converse here.
Otherwise, this manner of posting presents oneself as merely a pontificator who is unwilling to consider others’ points.
A few posters here greatly promote their tolerance of diverse theological viewpoints and “big tent” systemology; it would seem reasonable then that the majority of their posts ought to consist of, “Good point, Orthodox Catholic. I have never considered that before and will think about it and get back to you. Maybe I will change my position since my fundamental paradigm is that I am open to all viewpoints.”
However, peculiarly, the opposite seems to be the case in these types of posters.
My reference to abuse was in the context of the excuse, “Protestants, and public officials do it too” , a ‘defense’ that even the dioceses don’t use (ref to notable statement by Milwaukee archbishop recently).On another thread, 1234, you said that most Catholics aren’t faithful to the Church and are rogues who do what they want. You actually have no way of knowing that and yet here you tell this poster that he can’t possibly know the extent of biblical knowledge of the average Joe in the pews of the CC. True enough, but just as he doesn’t know the average biblical IQ of Catholic parishoners, you don’t know the piety and obedience levels of said parishoners either?
Bringing up the sex abuse scandal is pointless. It’s a painful, sad, depressing, and tragic blot on the history of this great Church. I’m ashamed and sickened by the clergy that did these things. The Church is full of fallible men. And these men were monsters. I personally think the cardinals, bishops, pastors, and even the last two popes did not do enough to prevent or stop this nightmare. I’m very disappointed at the payouts, the cover-ups, and the lies, and the emails that have come out. I’m disappointed at the slow pace with which it was dealt as well. It took the media and a lot of $$$ and angry folks to wake up the Vatican.
But this has nothing to do with this thread—female clergy. It only serves to hurt Catholics and deliver a low blow. We can’t control some of our sinful clergy anymore than you can yours in the Anglican realm, and yes there are molestors there as well, sadly. They are everywhere. Catholicism has been forced to take a hard look at this and make changes. And finally Benedict XVI is doing something about it and getting aggressive.
Pray for the Catholic Church and all churches that face these trying issues and pray that we can all not have such child predators. But reminding Catholics about it constantly and using it as a tactic to de-legitimize the Church isn’t beneficial IMO.
Oh man…All churches have a mix I’d say. But I do think God is bringing evangelicals into the Catholic Church to bring an even deeper knowledge and insight to the Church just as He brough pagans like Augustine into the faith to use new and fresh thinking and awareness to enrich the Church at a crucial time.As a white flag wave, I would mention that the Catholic Church* is* much more interested in supporting scholarly New Testament studies than in the past (as recently as my past), and that I believe that popes have formally stated their support for the fruits of science, not only in scholarly Biblical study, but also in general. This, of course, contrasts with the attitudes of some non-Catholic denominations. As an aside, I would suspect that your knowledge of the OT, NT, Fathers, theology and down the line, would be greater than many ACs and RCs alike. You take these things seriously.Every church has its posers and nominals. Catholicism is such a mammoth-sized religion that in the mix there are bound to be large numbers of people who don’t follow the faith. We’ve seen such numbers from Protestant large denominations as well. Mormons have a small amount of actual active parishioners who attend their worship each week and who play a role in their community. I do agree with your “well other churches do it (molest) too!” frustration. It’s a weak argument indeed. When I was a kid, I would do something wrong and when my dad or mom jumped on me for it, I’d try the “hey, but Steve and Rich did it, too!” and that didn’t fly. “I don’t care about Steve and Rich, I’m concerned with you, buddy!” that was the reply. And it applies to religion also. Pointing out other people’s stumblings and bumblings doesn’t excuse our own failures. You’re right on that one. And I for one am actually GLAD that the news media and lawyers and everyone jumped on the Church to kick 'em in the head and wake 'em up! This stuff was and is revolting and needs to stop, period.
I won’t lie to you. You’re right. I remain conflicted in many ways. At this point I’m choosing to just trust in Mother Church and realize, like I did as a small child, that perhaps my parents know better than I do. We’ll see. Only time will tell. I’m asking the Holy Spirit to guide me and it takes a lot out of me.
There are Catholics who are very adept at Scripture, some who don’t know it from Adam. I always thought Protestants were Bible scholars all. When I went Anglican I found that I, at that time a “former” Catholic, knew Scripture 50 times better than every single parishioner there. My rector enjoyed talking to me because I was the only parishioner out of hundreds that knew Scripture, the Fathers, traditions, and theology. If you could see what these folks DIDN’T know at bible studies?!
God bless.
We’ve all been at dinner parties or family gatherings and had the misfortune of sitting next to Uncle Ponty (the Pontificator). No matter what the topic (and especially if it’s of the religious sort) he will loudly and interminably provide an expository of his own thoughts and treat us to his wise hermeneutics.
No 1234, that’s not what you said. You said
Well not according to what you wrote.
Then perhaps you should be careful of what you write and maybe when you reply re-check what you have written.
Yes it did. And if you are trying to establish causality again here, do you think men who are interested in children will not meddle with children because they have wives? Do you think adult women would be their thing?
Is that so? You seem to be doing pretty well or else you would have sang So Long Farewell Auf Wiedersehen Goodbye.
Aah but 1234 I wasn’t using it as an excuse. You really ought to read what I wrote better.
But what sort of understanding? I am currently in an email debate with someone and all he keeps bringing up is St Paul’s epistles and when I mention the gospels he just throws some more un-related verses from St Paul because he cannot reconcile the “seeming” contradiction between what the gospels says and what St Paul has written. So if an outsider would think that somehow Paul is contradicting the gospels and the other NT writers.
But Marlene what has Dhezeremi’s humiility or lack thereof has to do with this? Either Christ willed for there to be only male priests of He did not? It is that simple.
But Marlene don’t you see how much of a hogwash you’ve just said? Don’t you think that considering that since the Catholic Church was the Church built by Christ she is the one who has a right to interpret her own book and her own tradition? And you go on again about your faith and my faith as if Truth is relative. Either you know and believe that your faith is true or there is no point in being in your faith because truly one must seek truth. If you think that it is all relative then why choose one over the other. Because of the singing? Because of the moral leeway that it gives one? Seriously.
I would land this fairly and squarely on the post Vatican II attempts of many to bow to modernism. It is the push to allow the world to evangelize the Church rather than the Church evangelizing the world that came from many quarters and priestesses are one of these theological innovations that have been the cause of the ruin of many parishes.
Is that the point when you spike Uncle Ponty’s drink to send him snoring in 2 seconds
By jove you’re right. We have female Bible study leaders too.
Would that it would work! Instead, it seems that this “liquid courage” only fuels Uncle Ponty’s pontifications. :sad_yes:Is that the point when you spike Uncle Ponty’s drink to send him snoring in 2 seconds
Indeed. That is one of my pet peeves on the CAFs. Actually, I have 2.
