F
frommi
Guest
OK…you’ve offered a strong defense of a male only priesthood…but this thread is about altar serving…they are different ministries…
- Status
R
Ruthmary
Guest
The case has been made, and I think it a good one, that boys will not be as willing to serve if they know there are girls there. They’ll just leave it to the girls.
There was a post earlier which suggested that having girls as servers will attract boys to want to be with them, and I consider that such a reason to be on the altar is a cheap reason and not worthy of consideration when speaking of service at Mass. In fact, it makes for me a further argument why not to have girls mixing with the boys on the altar. The boys should be encouraged to have their minds on God rather than on girls.
F
frommi
Guest
I just don’t think having boys and girls serve together creates this burlesque of lust that some of this board are suggesting.
And why are we talking like this ministry needs to be restricted to pre-adolescents? I know married couples who have served mass together…is that a problem too?
Now…let’s work on the other non-sequitur…
Having boys be serves leads to more priestly vocations.
Well…there’s little proof of this other than anecdotally.
So, if a boy stayed away from serving because a girl was involved…seems like we’re better off that such a narrow minded personality stayed away. Sadly, I suspect such narrow mindedness has little to do with the child and more to do with the radical thoughts being placed in his head by those who should know better.
R
Ruthmary
Guest
Has nothing to do with being PC. Don’t put adult silliness into a child’s natural instincts. Boys just want to be with boys. It has always been.
F
fix
Guest
That is the argument I would use to describe those who constantly clamor for female servers. It is a type of narrow view of the faith.
F
frommi
Guest
I have news for you…boys are going to have to be around girls in all walks of life…and allowing them to put up such silly barriers to shirk a call to serve at the table of the Lord for an hour a week is irresponsible.
N
nice
Guest
Good on him! I say. In my church only boys serve and thats the way it should be.
F
frommi
Guest
T
Titus
Guest
It is up to the pastor and indeed to each individual priest. There is nothing theologically wrong with girl servers- some think it confuses the issue of an all-male priesthood, some that it damages vocations. If the pastor holds this view, he can admit only boys. He is the ‘competent authority’.
F
frommi
Guest
I’m not questioning the pastor’s authority…I was questioning why someone would say “boys only is the way it should be”
W
willy
Guest
They dont feel they hav ea personal vocation to the priesthood is becuase thats an impossibilty nad a catholic doctrine that the Church doesn’t have the authority to “ordain” women to Christ’s all male priesthood.I don’t know about hitting a concrete ceiling, because in my parish there are many opportunities for women, from choir to lector to outreach services and teen groups. The girls I know personally who do serve never consider the priesthood being a personal vocation. In fact, they are from the families who do attend church and have a respect for the priesthood as it has been since its beginning. I have asked many priests how they feel about female servers, and though one did tell me he would prefer adults, male or female, because kids make mistakes () the others told me they didn’t mind either, so long as the server knew what they were doing and had reverence for it.
When I was listening to Catholic radio last week I heard a phone call from a young woman who thought she had a vocation to be a nun and her family was opposed to it. That worries me more than female servers. Pray for vocations, talk to young men, servers or not about what a wonderful vocation the priesthood is, talk to their families about what a wonderful vocation it is.
T
Titus
Guest
Aaah. I put the emphasis in the OP’s post on the pastor decision being final being the ‘way it should be’. Maybe my mistake. Perhaps the OP is best placed to answer in that case!
Women may feel a vocation to the priesthood. But the Church must verify that that call is divine and not of a different nature. And the Church has defined that God will never call a woman to be a priest.
J
Joe_Stong
Guest
While it’s true that the increase in altar girls in the late 1990s did not CAUSE the decline in priestly vocations, they sure don’t HELP.
Anything that will help increase priestly vocations ought to be encouraged - and like it or not, boys serving on the altar DOES help. Period, end of story.
It’s not about girls’ self esteem or their mothers’ desire to see little darling up on the altar dressed in white. It’s about helping increase priestly vocations.
And its a fact that virtually all priests were altar boys at one time.
It’s also a fact that most of the same people in favor of allowing girls on to the altar were also the same people who in the 1980’s and 1990’s pooh poohed and brow beat normal heterosexual males interested in the diocesan and religious priesthood, hounding them out for being ‘overly rigid’ or some other trumpted up charge when in reality many were simply more orthodox than the seminary rector or psychologist.
As the girls will NEVER be priests, letting them take over for the boys doesn’t make any long term, priestly vocation promoting sense.
But girls can grow up to sing in the choir, read the scriptures, etc.
Most boys don’t sing and there’s not enough reading roles to justify a regular cadre of boys being involved in the parish to read the scriptures. But having them as altar servers is a tried and true method to expose them to service in the Church.
God bless Fr Markey for not being brow beaten by people who insist on making Church service all about them and their little feelings rather than about what’s good for the Church and world!
Anything that will help increase priestly vocations ought to be encouraged - and like it or not, boys serving on the altar DOES help. Period, end of story.
It’s not about girls’ self esteem or their mothers’ desire to see little darling up on the altar dressed in white. It’s about helping increase priestly vocations.
And its a fact that virtually all priests were altar boys at one time.
It’s also a fact that most of the same people in favor of allowing girls on to the altar were also the same people who in the 1980’s and 1990’s pooh poohed and brow beat normal heterosexual males interested in the diocesan and religious priesthood, hounding them out for being ‘overly rigid’ or some other trumpted up charge when in reality many were simply more orthodox than the seminary rector or psychologist.
As the girls will NEVER be priests, letting them take over for the boys doesn’t make any long term, priestly vocation promoting sense.
But girls can grow up to sing in the choir, read the scriptures, etc.
Most boys don’t sing and there’s not enough reading roles to justify a regular cadre of boys being involved in the parish to read the scriptures. But having them as altar servers is a tried and true method to expose them to service in the Church.
God bless Fr Markey for not being brow beaten by people who insist on making Church service all about them and their little feelings rather than about what’s good for the Church and world!
D
dwc
Guest
That is the least convincing statement in this thread. Period, end of story, because you said so — so what? There is no evidence that altar girls deter altar boys. The fact that you are resorting to the good ol’ “I think it, it must be true” doesn’t change that.
You’re right, it’s not. It’s about a faithful Catholic girl’s desire to serve her Lord and her parish in a manner which is deemed appropriate by the former Pope and the majority of pastors. It’s about parishes having an abundance of altar servers as fewer and fewer Catholic children attend Catholic schools and the pool of available servers, male and female, becomes smaller.
It’s also not about women becoming priests.
G
Godi
Guest
Our Parish Priest here, has done likewise. The Altar Boys are the seed bed for future Priest.
J
Joe_Stong
Guest
“no evidence that altar girls deter altar boys”
First of all, that’s ridiculous; there’s only a finite number (3 to 4) of serving positions per Mass and only 4-5 Masses per weekend, so AT MOST per Parish, per week we’re talking about 20 individual servers having the opportunity to assist the priest in the function of the liturgy.
Now, finding 20 boys per Parish, per week is NOT HARD TO DO. But if you reduce that by 50% to include girls, then by definition, you DETER ALTAR BOYS !!!
You cut the number of boys per parish back 50% and then have the adacity to claim “this isn’t going to affect vocational discernment”?
It’s certainly not going to HELP vocational discernment to arbitrarily make access to the altar an even rarer event for boys.
As mentioned, there are plenty of wonderful ways girls can be involved. They don’t NEED to be on the altar and since there’s a priest shortage, the insistance of little Susie taking little Johnny’s place on the altar week after week when there’s ZERO chance she’ll ever be called to be a deaconness or priestess, but there’s a chance - however small - that HE MIGHT BE CALLED - it’s nothing but misguided ‘feminism’ to insist on Altar girls.
OH and this wasn’t the Pope’s idea. It was simply DONE, massively and without Vatican approval for a decade, spreading to more and more parishes in more and more dioceses until it was a fait accompli. The Pope gave in to avoid more problems from “Ameri-Church” zealots. Most bishops also gave in rather than deal with the issue which was pushed by their activist nuns and other “hip” church professionals.
Simply because something is done and is popular (like Catholics getting divorced and remarried, using the Pill, having abortions or voting for abortion policies) doesn’t mean it’s all hunky dory and OK.
From a vocational perspective, letting girls on the altar - taking the place from boys - is NOT HELPING, and if it’s not helping, then it’s hurting. And if it’s hurting then why continue the practice?
Unless again it was about some misguided feminist idea that girls will some day be deaconnesses or priestesses so need to get used to the idea of dressing in white robes and serving on the altar.
First of all, that’s ridiculous; there’s only a finite number (3 to 4) of serving positions per Mass and only 4-5 Masses per weekend, so AT MOST per Parish, per week we’re talking about 20 individual servers having the opportunity to assist the priest in the function of the liturgy.
Now, finding 20 boys per Parish, per week is NOT HARD TO DO. But if you reduce that by 50% to include girls, then by definition, you DETER ALTAR BOYS !!!
You cut the number of boys per parish back 50% and then have the adacity to claim “this isn’t going to affect vocational discernment”?
It’s certainly not going to HELP vocational discernment to arbitrarily make access to the altar an even rarer event for boys.
As mentioned, there are plenty of wonderful ways girls can be involved. They don’t NEED to be on the altar and since there’s a priest shortage, the insistance of little Susie taking little Johnny’s place on the altar week after week when there’s ZERO chance she’ll ever be called to be a deaconness or priestess, but there’s a chance - however small - that HE MIGHT BE CALLED - it’s nothing but misguided ‘feminism’ to insist on Altar girls.
OH and this wasn’t the Pope’s idea. It was simply DONE, massively and without Vatican approval for a decade, spreading to more and more parishes in more and more dioceses until it was a fait accompli. The Pope gave in to avoid more problems from “Ameri-Church” zealots. Most bishops also gave in rather than deal with the issue which was pushed by their activist nuns and other “hip” church professionals.
Simply because something is done and is popular (like Catholics getting divorced and remarried, using the Pill, having abortions or voting for abortion policies) doesn’t mean it’s all hunky dory and OK.
From a vocational perspective, letting girls on the altar - taking the place from boys - is NOT HELPING, and if it’s not helping, then it’s hurting. And if it’s hurting then why continue the practice?
Unless again it was about some misguided feminist idea that girls will some day be deaconnesses or priestesses so need to get used to the idea of dressing in white robes and serving on the altar.
J
J.J
Guest
Part of the foundations of The Church is Tradition. In the Eastern Church, our Tradition says - no women on the Alter - for any reason - there has never been a problem.
Apparently, in The Latin Church, a tradition is developing to allow women on the alter - Alter girls, readers, etc. I suppose if your Bishops are willing to go along with this change, that’s the way it will be.
Other changes in Tradition have been made be The Latin Church, such as - The Church not facing East; Priest facing Congregation, The Communion Rail - remnent of The Icon Screen - becoming a place to lean when receiving, lay people “distributing” Holy Communion, etc. And now, women on the alter.
Christos Voskres!
J
J.J
Guest
I must say, your response sounds quite Orthodox; sure you aren’t an Eastern Catholic?
I just posted a response regarding “Traditions” of The Church, in that part of the foundation of The Church is “Tradition”.
If the Liberals and those who only consider “me, me, me”, have their way today, the Church (be it Latin or other - there are 24/26 Catholic Churches in the world) will simply become a haven of radicals who will always want to change something and yet, never be satisfied.
They need to remember - The Church is not a Democracy - you don’t get to vote on organization, or matters of Dogma.
Voyeestynu Voskres!
J
Joe_Stong
Guest
I’m Catholic of the Latin rite.
Like holding hands during the Our Father, the use of altar girls was just DONE, not approved by Bishops or councils. Once it became widespread then one bishop after another folded like a house of cards rather then risk the ire of the nuns and ‘theologians’ who had major newspapers on speeddial.
Its hard to overestimate the brow beating some prelates can take from making decisions that their priest councils and activitists will detest (like telling said groups to obey Rome and stop inventing liturgical abuses out of thin air).
It’s easier (and thus most common) for them to just ignore liturgical abuses altogether, suffer the angst of otherwise obedience conservatives (who don’t have major news organizations on speeddial) and hope for the best.
For many it was just one more thing to not get worried about - a trifle to be given in to and so stave off more wrath from nuns and theologians whose chief mission in life seems to be to ‘change’ the liturgy and then the doctrine of the Church rather than learn it, understand it, and promote it as a “deposit” of faith for the salvation of the world.
Like holding hands during the Our Father, the use of altar girls was just DONE, not approved by Bishops or councils. Once it became widespread then one bishop after another folded like a house of cards rather then risk the ire of the nuns and ‘theologians’ who had major newspapers on speeddial.
Its hard to overestimate the brow beating some prelates can take from making decisions that their priest councils and activitists will detest (like telling said groups to obey Rome and stop inventing liturgical abuses out of thin air).
It’s easier (and thus most common) for them to just ignore liturgical abuses altogether, suffer the angst of otherwise obedience conservatives (who don’t have major news organizations on speeddial) and hope for the best.
For many it was just one more thing to not get worried about - a trifle to be given in to and so stave off more wrath from nuns and theologians whose chief mission in life seems to be to ‘change’ the liturgy and then the doctrine of the Church rather than learn it, understand it, and promote it as a “deposit” of faith for the salvation of the world.
- Status