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Christine85
Guest
I’m not going to bother replying anymore I see the truth and it’s a shame for those who don’t. God bless you in your efforts +++
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TrueLight
Guest
This is not personal. Some of us are actually trying to learn by asking questions.
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Laudate_Dominum
Guest
Q. 1052. What is a sacramental?
A. A sacramental is anything set apart or blessed by the Church to excite good thoughts and to increase devotion, and through these movements of the heart to remit venial sin.
Q. 1053. How do the Sacramentals excite good thoughts and increase devotion?
A. The Sacramentals excite good thoughts by recalling to our minds some special reason for doing good and avoiding evil; especially by reminding us of some holy person, event or thing through which blessings have come to us. They increase devotion by fixing our minds on particular virtues and by helping us to understand and desire them.
Q. 1063. Which is the chief sacramental used in the Church?
A. The chief sacramental used in the Church is the sign of the cross.
Does making the sign of the cross to ward of evil amount to superstition?
A. A sacramental is anything set apart or blessed by the Church to excite good thoughts and to increase devotion, and through these movements of the heart to remit venial sin.
Q. 1053. How do the Sacramentals excite good thoughts and increase devotion?
A. The Sacramentals excite good thoughts by recalling to our minds some special reason for doing good and avoiding evil; especially by reminding us of some holy person, event or thing through which blessings have come to us. They increase devotion by fixing our minds on particular virtues and by helping us to understand and desire them.
Q. 1063. Which is the chief sacramental used in the Church?
A. The chief sacramental used in the Church is the sign of the cross.
Does making the sign of the cross to ward of evil amount to superstition?
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
That’s the point. It doesn’t “need” to be worn. It is a devotion. No one is required to practice any private devotion.
I do have a devotion to our Lady, especially under the title Our Lady of Mount Carmel. I wear the brown scapular, it is part of my habit. But no, I do not wear it 24/7 and there is no need to do so.
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
Source please.
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
It depends. If you believe that by making it, it will save you from all evil then yes it could be.
Saying that by wearing the scapular you will be saved from the fires of hell then you are treating the scapular as some sort of lucky charm. It is not the scapular, or the wearing of the scapular, that will save you from the fires of hell. It is the devotion to God that the wearing of the scapular represents that will save you. Taking off the scapular to sleep (I can not sleep with anything around my neck, I wake up feeling as though I ma choking) or to bath does not change that devotion.
So if you slip in the shower and die and go to hell while you are not wearing the scapular then I would say that you would still be going to hell even if you were wearing the scapular as the only think that will send a soul to hell is total separation from God which is something that a piece of fabric can not change.
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Laudate_Dominum
Guest
Please quote the post where I ever once stated that the scapular will avail you at all if you divorce it from the sound practise of the Catholic faith.
B
Brooklyn
Guest
Is there any subject that will not lead to arguments and disagreements on the CAF? Instead of everyone posting their opinions, why not just look to see what the rules are:
From sistersofcarmel.com/brown-scapular-information.php:
History
In the year 1251, in the town of Aylesford in England, Our Lady appeared to St. Simon Stock, a Carmelite. She handed him a brown woolen scapular and said, “This shall be a privilege for you and all Carmelites, that anyone dying in this habit shall not suffer eternal fire.” In time, the Church extended this magnificent privilege to all the laity who are willing to be invested in the Brown Scapular of the Carmelites and who** perpetually ** wear it.
Devotion
True devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary consists in three things: VENERATION, CONFIDENCE AND LOVE. By simply wearing the Scapular, we can tell her every moment of the day that we venerate her, love her and trust in her protection.
The Sabbatine Privilege
The Blessed Virgin of Mount Carmel has promised to save those who wear the scapular from the fires of hell; She will also shorten their stay in purgatory if they should pass from this world still owing some debt of punishment.
This promise is found in a Bull of Pope John XXII. The Blessed Virgin appeared to him and, speaking of those who wear the Brown Scapular, said, “I, the Mother of Grace, shall descend on the Saturday after their death and whomsoever I shall find in purgatory I shall free so that I may lead them to the holy mountain of life everlasting.”
The Blessed Virgin assigned certain conditions which must be fulfilled:
Wear the Brown Scapular continuously.
Observe chastity according to one’s state in life (married/single).
Recite daily the Little Office of the Blessed Virgin OR Observe the fasts of the Church together with abstaining from meat on Wednesdays and Saturdays OR With permission of a priest, say five decades of Our Lady’s Most Holy Rosary OR With permission of a priest, substitute some other good work.
Pope Benedict XV, the celebrated World War I Pontiff, granted 500 days indulgence for devoutly kissing your scapular.
If you don’t want to accept this, you are not obligated. But please, no more with calling this a “superstition.” It is an approved Catholic devotion that was given to St. Simon Stock directly by our Blessed Mother.
From sistersofcarmel.com/brown-scapular-information.php:
History
In the year 1251, in the town of Aylesford in England, Our Lady appeared to St. Simon Stock, a Carmelite. She handed him a brown woolen scapular and said, “This shall be a privilege for you and all Carmelites, that anyone dying in this habit shall not suffer eternal fire.” In time, the Church extended this magnificent privilege to all the laity who are willing to be invested in the Brown Scapular of the Carmelites and who** perpetually ** wear it.
Devotion
True devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary consists in three things: VENERATION, CONFIDENCE AND LOVE. By simply wearing the Scapular, we can tell her every moment of the day that we venerate her, love her and trust in her protection.
The Sabbatine Privilege
The Blessed Virgin of Mount Carmel has promised to save those who wear the scapular from the fires of hell; She will also shorten their stay in purgatory if they should pass from this world still owing some debt of punishment.
This promise is found in a Bull of Pope John XXII. The Blessed Virgin appeared to him and, speaking of those who wear the Brown Scapular, said, “I, the Mother of Grace, shall descend on the Saturday after their death and whomsoever I shall find in purgatory I shall free so that I may lead them to the holy mountain of life everlasting.”
The Blessed Virgin assigned certain conditions which must be fulfilled:
Wear the Brown Scapular continuously.
Observe chastity according to one’s state in life (married/single).
Recite daily the Little Office of the Blessed Virgin OR Observe the fasts of the Church together with abstaining from meat on Wednesdays and Saturdays OR With permission of a priest, say five decades of Our Lady’s Most Holy Rosary OR With permission of a priest, substitute some other good work.
Pope Benedict XV, the celebrated World War I Pontiff, granted 500 days indulgence for devoutly kissing your scapular.
If you don’t want to accept this, you are not obligated. But please, no more with calling this a “superstition.” It is an approved Catholic devotion that was given to St. Simon Stock directly by our Blessed Mother.
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john78
Guest
My mother has a Scapular that has been hidden away in her room, i have been thinking about wearing it, can anyone just pick it up and wear it and devote one self ? or is their a process ?
are their different sized scapulars that one can purchase, does the scapular have to remain visible or can one tuck it away under clothing , because employers sometimes have rules about wearing religious items ( and i have been told before that i am not allowed to wear a crucifix ) .
are their different sized scapulars that one can purchase, does the scapular have to remain visible or can one tuck it away under clothing , because employers sometimes have rules about wearing religious items ( and i have been told before that i am not allowed to wear a crucifix ) .
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
Directly from the Catechesis on the Brown Scapular as put out jointly from the Carmelites and the Discalced Carmelites.
Key points will be posted below.
Key points will be posted below.
- The long-standing tradition of the Church has approved this vision as an acceptable cult but that does not authenticate it as a historical experience.
- There are several problems. The first is the historicity of Simon himself. The second is the account of the vision.
- This bring us to the second problem, and that problem is the account of the vision. No one seems to know about the vision until the very end of the fourteenth century—almost a century and a half after it supposedly happened. This is extremely problematic in establishing historical accuracy.
- These visions then cannot be seen as historical events. That does not mean that they are without meaning. The belief in the protection of the Blessed Virgin Mary over the Order of Carmel and its members is and has always been strong—from the first days of the Order. The scapular serves as a visible reminder of that protection despite its probable commonplace origins.
- As a matter of fact, in the year 1613 the Holy See determined that the decree establishing the “Sabbatine Privilege” was unfounded and the Church admonished the Carmelite Order not to preach this doctrine. Unfortunately, the Order did not always comply with this directive of the Holy See.
- At the time the Carmelites were instructed to stop mentioning the “Sabbatine Privilege” the Holy See acknowledged that the faithful may devoutly believe that the Blessed Virgin Mary by her continuous intercession, merciful prayers, merits, and special protection will assist the souls of deceased brothers and sisters and members of the confraternity, especially on Saturday, the day which the church dedicates to the Blessed Virgin.
- Consistent with the Catholic tradition, such favors associated with the wearing of the Brown Scapular would be meaningless without the wearers living and dying in the state of grace, observing chastity according to their state in life, and living a life of prayer and penitence.
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
[con’t]
Again from the Catechesis I linked earlier.
Actually the conditions to be met is the practice of Carmelite Spirituality.
Again from the Catechesis I linked earlier.
What is this Carmelite spirituality that one must practice in order to have an affiliation with the Carmelite Order?
The spirituality of the Carmelite Order is one of the preeminent spiritual traditions of the Catholic Church. It is difficult to reduce this spirituality to a few sentences. One who wears the scapular should certainly reflect upon the teachings of the great Carmelite saints, three of whom are doctors of the Church.
A few basic introductory principles of Carmelite spirituality would be—
The spirituality of the Carmelite Order is one of the preeminent spiritual traditions of the Catholic Church. It is difficult to reduce this spirituality to a few sentences. One who wears the scapular should certainly reflect upon the teachings of the great Carmelite saints, three of whom are doctors of the Church.
A few basic introductory principles of Carmelite spirituality would be—
*]frequent participation in the Mass and reception of Holy Communion;
*]frequent reading of and meditation on the Word of God in Sacred Scripture;
*]the regular praying of at least part of the Liturgy of the Hours;
*]imitation of and devotion to Mary, the woman of faith who hears the Word of God and puts it into practice;
*]the practice of the virtues, notably charity, chastity (according to one’s state of life), and obedience to the will of God.
No one here has called the wearing of the brown scapular a superstition. What borders on superstition is the belief that by wearing it one is saved. That one must wear it 24/7 or they risk that they will not be saved or that by not wearing it that they are somehow more at risk to the devil.
Those are not true and are superstitions as they are treating the brown scapular as some sort of magical charm.
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figs
Guest
ByzCath,
This >
“Consistent with the Catholic tradition, such favors associated with the wearing of the Brown Scapular would be meaningless without the wearers living and dying in the state of grace, observing chastity according to their state in life, and living a life of prayer and penitence.” <
from your previous post, is so very imortant!
This >
“Consistent with the Catholic tradition, such favors associated with the wearing of the Brown Scapular would be meaningless without the wearers living and dying in the state of grace, observing chastity according to their state in life, and living a life of prayer and penitence.” <
from your previous post, is so very imortant!
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
Yes it is. All those who talk about wearing the scapular saving one from hell need to add this to the statement to avoid the appearance of superstition.
They also need to drop the insistence that everyone wear it 24/7.
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figs
Guest
Exactly!
Just once I would love to see one of these brown scapular threads where devotional prayer and chastity suitable to your vocation, are insisted on with as much fervency as wearing it in the shower.
Funny how that is
B
Brooklyn
Guest
I would say that to a person everyone that I know who wears the brown scapular is also very devoted to prayer. They seem to go hand in hand. Where is anyone here saying that one can wear the scauplar without devotion? I don’t understand your complaint.Exactly!
Just once I would love to see one of these brown scapular threads where devotional prayer and chastity suitable to your vocation, are insisted on with as much fervency as wearing it in the shower.
Funny how that is
B
Brooklyn
Guest
No one is insisting that anyone wear it any time. You can completely ignore this devotion and remain a Catholic in good standing. It is merely said that if you wish to follow this devotion, you should wear your scapular at all times. That is what our Lady asked.
You can discount St. Simon Stock and his visions if you want. That is your privilege. But the Church has said this devotion is worthy of belief, so you have no right to discount others’ belief in it.
The Popes and the Brown Scapular
Pope Leo XIII: “The Carmelite Scapular’s nobility of origin, its extraordinary spread among Christian peoples for many centuries, the spiritualizing effects produced by it and the outstanding miracles worked in virtue of it render the Scapular of Carmel commendable to a wondrous degree.”
Pope Pius XI: “In consideration of the munificent goodness of the heavenly Mother towards her children, it surely ought to be sufficient merely to exhort those who belong to the Scapular Confraternity to persevere in the holy exercises which have been prescribed for the gaining of the indulgences to which they are entitled.”
Pope Pius XII: “All Carmelites, whether they live in the cloisters of the First or Second Orders or are members of the Third Order or of the Confraternities, belong to the same family of our Most Blessed Mother and are attached to it by a special bond of love. May they all see in this keepsake of the Virgin herself a mirror of humility and purity; may they read in the very simplicity of the Garment a concise lesson in modesty and simplicity; above all, may they behold in this same Garment, which they wear day and night, the eloquent expressive symbol of their prayers for divine assistance.”
Pope John XXIII: He spoke “of the Mother of God who is honored in this Church of Our Lady of Mount Carmel. Devotion to her becomes a necessity; towards Our Lady of Mount Carmel we are drawn with a most tender, yet irresistible, attraction.”
Pope Paul VI, speaking of Marian devotions, especially of the Scapular, says “Let the faithful hold in high esteem the practices and devotions to the Blessed Virgin approved by the teaching authority of the Church. It is Our conviction that the Rosary of Mary and the Scapular of Carmel are among these recommended practices. The Scapular is a practice of piety, which by its very simplicity is suited to everyone.”
Were all of these popes wrong as well?
Our Lady of Fatima held the Brown Scapular in her hands when she appeared to the three children. You can also disbelieve that if you would like, but the Church says it is worthy of belief, so you have no right trying to take this away from other people.
St. Dominic said: “One day, through the Rosary and the Scapular, Our Lady will save the world.”
That’s good enough for me. If you don’t want to accept it, you don’t have to. Why do you feel a need to try to take it away from others when this is a Church-approved devotion?
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
Just from the first page of this thread . . .
Someone on a group on CAF has stated at Fatima the children were told the Scapular is not to be worn whilst sleeping, this sounds absurd surely that’s when we need most protection?
Does anyone know of a link stating Scapular must be worn all the time?
Thankyou in advance
God bless you +++
That’s the kind of dedication I like to see!!!
God bless you +++
As for “That is what our Lady asked.” Where did she ask this?
I do not discount the visions. I do not discount the message. Though the history is not there. Even if it is not historical that does not change the mystical aspect of it.
No where did I say they were wrong. Please try actually read what is said.
I am a Carmelite friar after all.
Again, I have not spoke out against the scapular. I am speaking out for a balanced approach to it and to avoid superstition when dealing with it.
I am sorry if you take that as an attack but that really says more about you than it does about me as there was no attack in anything I have said.
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figs
Guest
It wasn’t, it was an observation.
Please, re-read what I said,
B
Brooklyn
Guest
B
Brooklyn
Guest
Exactly!
Just once I would love to see one of these brown scapular threads where devotional prayer and chastity suitable to your vocation, are insisted on with as much fervency as wearing it in the shower.
Funny how that is
Well, I have just reposted what you said. So your “observation”, not “complaint” is that people who have a devotion to the Scapular are not as devoted to prayer?
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