Arguing About Abortion

[AlNg]

The pregnancy will remind her every day of her ordeal and she will most likely hate the child beyond all reason. The emotional baggage that a woman deals with in a normal wanted pregnancy is hard enough. This type of pregnancy can often be beyond bearable.

We don’t want it to be that way but the reality is…it can be pure torture for her.

This is what worries me. She has already been terribly hurt by the rape and beatings. Now is it right to put her through more torture? Yes, perhaps it is best that she can find forgiveness and love for the child. But honestly, with so many hundreds of thousands of Catholics having abortions for consenting sex encounters, and with Catholic politicians, never excommunicated, advocating its legality, this also has to be something going through her mind. In fact, a Catholic running for President, Joe Biden, said that as president, he’d protect abortion rights by codifying Roe v. Wade into federal law. You realize that this is almost always for killing an unborn who was conceived by consent of the two adults. AFAIK, US Catholic bishops have not spoken out publicly against Joe Biden or Nancy Pelosi?

 

[Lea101]

So, it isn’t a question of what we think — because the reality is not determined by what we happen to believe — it is a question of what is true.

Certainly, that is a gamble, of sorts

I do agree with the argument presented. I just don’t think it’s effective on the average person who genuinely doesn’t care about Christianity despite claiming affiliation. I think you’re definitely familiar with those sorts of people who aren’t interested in a theological discussion and such discussions shut it down.

That or it will eventually go back to a secular argument. E.g. Them saying “But a fetus is not an individual”, something about autonomy, or worse, “I am personally against it but it is my personal beliefs blah blah”

Then you would have to argue how a fetus is an individual that objectively deserves rights. For most people, immediately cutting down to these points is more efficient. This is the crux of the argument ultimately, and it seems like getting straight to the root is a good way to force them to truly think about why they believe what they believe.

 

[HarryStotle]

HarryStotle:

The underlying assumption is that aborting the child will “make things better” for the girl, but will they? Doesn’t it merely add one more death (of another innocent being, at that) into the situation. Why would that make it better for the girl, necessarily? Wouldn’t bringing a new life into the world add something positive rather than make things worse, unless there is a presumption that the new innocent life is somehow to blame for the evil? Doesn’t that just reinforce the animus rather than seek redemption from the evil by moving beyond it?

Unfortunately, the reality is that it will help her in several ways. It’s true that she may accept and love the child but the odds are against it. The pregnancy will remind her every day of her ordeal and she will most likely hate the child beyond all reason. The emotional baggage that a woman deals with in a normal wanted pregnancy is hard enough. This type of pregnancy can often be beyond bearable.

We don’t want it to be that way but the reality is…it can be pure torture for her.

That would be you speculating about the reality, not the reality. Have studies been done to support what you say?

 

[Lea101]

The underlying assumption is that aborting the child will “make things better” for the girl, but will they? Doesn’t it merely add one more death (of another innocent being, at that) into the situation. Why would that make it better for the girl, necessarily? Wouldn’t bringing a new life into the world add something positive rather than make things worse, unless there is a presumption that the new innocent life is somehow to blame for the evil? Doesn’t that just reinforce the animus rather than seek redemption from the evil by moving beyond it?

The harsh truth that we try to avoid is that the pregnancy has a high chance of traumatising the crap out of her, depending on her mental state. This will increase the chances of post partum depression as well, and even physical health.

Why would that make it better for the girl, necessarily? Wouldn’t bringing a new life into the world add something positive rather than make things worse,

Not for her necessarily. Assuming that the girl in question doesn’t have strong views against abortion, the abortion may actually bring her relief. Not having to go through the whole pregnancy and physically changing, experiencing complications, going through the delivery and then probably giving the baby up for adoption is usually the ‘preferable’ choice.

I mean, I would obviously choose to not be pregnant than to do all of that. So if a woman who doesn’t feel strongly against abortion were to go through that experience, abortion would probably not make things worse for her. It could even improve her life.

There are obviously women who have been raped and didn’t regret keeping their children. These are beautiful stories. But it’s not the case for all cases. Some people are more affected by these events. I worked in the Foster care system for a short while, and I have read cases where moms go nuts at a child that they never wanted. A psychologist also shared women who gave their babies up for adoption, but their mental health took a worse turn (something about stretch marks being a reminder, guilt for giving up their child, or even hatred that there’s an embodiment of the rape somewhere etc)

However we are arguing that this doesn’t justify killing an innocent life. And additional arguments can talk about the support and protections these women need (either from the gov or something else). I don’t think pro life people need to undermine the possible trauma of having a pregnancy to make this argument, just a whole lot of guts and empathy to stick to their points

 

[HarryStotle]

BTW, Catholics are just as likely to have abortions as others. Statistics show that in the USA 24% of all abortions are procured by Catholics. No doubt the vast majority of these abortions are done because two consenting adults don’t want to be inconvenienced by having to raise a child.

I suppose Catholics, just like all the others, will need to assess their lives and whether their willingness to engage in sex and then terminate the life of the new human being they created is leading them to a truly fulfilled and morally integrated life or is causing them more grief, uncertainty and sadness than they might be willing to admit in public.

 

[HarryStotle]

Not for her necessarily. Assuming that the girl in question doesn’t have strong views against abortion, the abortion may actually bring her relief. Not having to go through the whole pregnancy and physically changing, experiencing complications, going through the delivery and then probably giving the baby up for adoption is usually the ‘preferable’ choice.

My suspicion is that life choices and what you call “strong views” are very superficial and mask the great psychological turbulence that comes with living life loosely and purposelessly. Moral reality tends to haunt our thinking and rationalizing in a way that can’t be ignored for the long term.

We are inherently moral beings who seek to integrate the basic moral realities of justice, truth, sincerity, deep concern for our own well-being and the lives of other human beings, along with constantly seeking an enduring and certain sense of meaning.

Strong views, or at least views that are expressed strongly, often mask or seek to cancel out the unavoidable moral reality that remains at the core of our beings.

 

[Lea101]

My suspicion is that life choices and what you call “strong views” are very superficial and mask the great psychological turbulence that comes with living life loosely and purposelessly.

We’re talking about a woman who has been brutally abused and rape.

Imagine someone from the Women’s march rally who goes through this.

Abortion won’t be the thing that traumatises her (in terms of odds). It would be better for her physical and mental health (not spiritual) to go through it than the pregnancy + adoption/raising that child.

The point is that it still doesn’t justify the killing of an innocent life, not that abortion is going to harm her health/giving birth will make things better for her.

 

[HarryStotle]

Abortion won’t be the thing that traumatises her (in terms of odds). It would be better for her physical and mental health (not spiritual) to go through it than the pregnancy + adoption/raising that child.

That would be your opinion only. Any research to back up that claim?

 

[Lea101]

That would be your opinion only. Any research to back up that claim?

Postpartum depression risk factors: A narrative review shows that existing mental health issues and negative attitudes towards pregnancy are risk factors for post partum.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...Vaw1cyvKxdweaUYD0PTziArHP&cshid=1586496985260 has interesting sources showing effects of depression on health.

Unintended pregnancy as a predictor of child maltreatment - PubMed how unintended pregnancies are a predictor of abuse, more relevant links are cited.

Emotions and decision rightness over five years following an abortion: An examination of decision difficulty and abortion stigma - ScienceDirect this is something you probably came across. Shows how most women apparently aren’t negatively affected by abortions. Does show how abortions don’t always make things worse for the women go through them. Is highly dependent on the woman’s circumstances.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAGegQIBRAK&usg=AOvVaw29oo7vEb6z8AYlbDFAvXiY

There are more studies cited in these links obviously, but it does show that these women go through a lot if they keep their pregnancies.

Do you have some sources to show otherwise (out of curiosity)? That abortion is worse for these women? I’m aware of some.

Edited to add: such results are dependent on the woman’s characteristics. If a woman is pro life and/or has a supportive environment, it’s highly possible that she would report regret for abortion, and would probably respond positively to giving birth. Pro life institutes have cited some studies showing how abortion can make things worse.

 

[HarryStotle]

HarryStotle:

That would be your opinion only. Any research to back up that claim?

Postpartum depression risk factors: A narrative review shows that existing mental health issues and negative attitudes towards pregnancy are risk factors for post partum.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...Vaw1cyvKxdweaUYD0PTziArHP&cshid=1586496985260 has interesting sources showing effects of depression on health.

Unintended pregnancy as a predictor of child maltreatment - PubMed how unintended pregnancies are a predictor of abuse, more relevant links are cited.

Emotions and decision rightness over five years following an abortion: An examination of decision difficulty and abortion stigma - ScienceDirect this is something you probably came across. Shows how most women apparently aren’t negatively affected by abortions. Does show how abortions don’t always make things worse for the women go through them. Is highly dependent on the woman’s circumstances.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAGegQIBRAK&usg=AOvVaw29oo7vEb6z8AYlbDFAvXiY

There are more studies cited in these links obviously, but it does show that these women go through a lot if they keep their pregnancies.

Do you have some sources to show otherwise (out of curiosity)? That abortion is worse for these women? I’m aware of some.

Edited to add: such results are dependent on the woman’s characteristics. If a woman is pro life and/or has a supportive environment, it’s highly possible that she would report regret for abortion, and would probably respond positively to giving birth. Pro life institutes have cited some studies showing how abortion can make things worse.

These do not appear to be specific to the situation you described, but I will read them.

 

[Lea101]

These do not appear to be specific to the situation you described, but I will read them.

I went with the assumption of the woman being depressed and unwilling to keep the pregnancy, since rape can cause depression or PTSD.

My point was based on these studies (and similar ones), where pregnancy can have more harmful effects to a traumatised woman than an abortion, although this isn’t to say that an abortion has no negative effects on her as well. That is, keeping a pregnancy isn’t helpful, or that abortion doesn’t necessarily hurt her more than keeping the baby, as there’s research that shows abortion is linked to a small increase of mental disorders. It’s definitely an extrapolation, though, since studies that compare pregnancies/abortions from rape from women with similar mental health is pretty rare and politicised, and a good design regarding this issue is sadly wishful thinking.

 

[IsaiahSpirit]

Your argument is very subjective.
No one can nullify that an evil act often accompanies
an anesthetic sense of psychological denial of the internal
loss of inner disposition harmony with the ethics of our
completely self-giving Benevolent GOD.
And the historic credible testimonies of JESUS as Majestic Suffering Servant,
is the only explanation that GOD by One in Being with GOD, Son of GOD,
does everything by His Divine Merits to help each of us endure unearned suffering.
Calling children expendable because of earthly material justice or emotional justifications - even by complacency - does not hold water.
Only GOD impartially knows if a person with a full act of the will, betrays
our Savior JESUS by claiming children are expendable for a mere limited
human understanding of justice - the common good for everyone coming into the world through the womb. And only GOD impartially knows the suffering of someone’s consciousness, no matter how tiny physically and the suffering of the mother alongside everyone experiencing the loss of the child. Near death experience testimonies give credible evidence that consciousness exists apart from the body, also. So size is not an evidence of no consciousness.
~
The Church Teaches that in extreme cases of necessary treatment for things like cancer, or a blighted ovum tiny baby, or ectopic pregnancy - that treating these extreme conditions out of mercy - if the child dies, that was not the intent.
~
Choosing someone’s suffering is playing GOD. We know that suffering happens, so we are called to minister with all due diligence a particular suffering, and not use murder or complacency toward murder and mass atrocity as some type of necessity.
~
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
source: 1 Corinthians 1 BSB

 

[IsaiahSpirit]

Concern for children and mothers is commendable.
However, please consider that JESUS said narrow is the way to life,
and wide is the path to destruction. However, when we receive
Divine Favor, Grace, in JESUS, The All Powerful Benevolent Humility
of GOD’s Strength, in thankfulness through joy, pain, and sorrow -
helps our narrow and difficult yokes at every single moment.
““Come to me, all you that are weary and are carrying heavy burdens, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me; for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.” - Matthew 11:28-30
~
Recent time has seen an immense escalation of a honey speech luring emotional logic (falling way short of impartial logic) playing at heart-strings
radical secular humanist; truth is relative to social trends only social constructionist*; moral relativist culture of death - to form ways to address human suffering. This deception gets it’s power by the seeming helping basic human need to help others obtain justice (what is due a person for the orderly common good.). This is diametrically opposed to The Message of The Life, Suffering, and Resurrection of JESUS The Beloved Redeemer - and all GOD’s Divine Merits (Grace) to be received or not received.
~
Yes, yes, yes we must be concerned with the welfare of others; but each of us are made to know and love GOD, GOD’s Ways, to be ready for the hereafter as best as possible every moment of our lives. What we do for the latter is also giving to the least among us, and has Eternal consequences.
~
" Humble yourselves, therefore, under God’s mighty hand, so that in due time He may exalt you. Cast all your anxiety on Him, because He cares for you.” - 1 Peter 5:6-7

 

[Abrosz]

Ah, the inexhaustible topic of abortion. I am just going to insert my view in a few words, for whatever it is worth. I am both pro-choice AND pro-life. Neither is absolute. Details are available upon request.

 

[Hume]

Ah, the inexhaustible topic of abortion. I am just going to insert my view in a few words, for whatever it is worth. I am both pro-choice AND pro-life. Neither is absolute. Details are available upon request.

The path of wisdom, for sure.

 

[Hume]

You can’t come up with one other physiological purpose for intercourse. Earlier you claimed there were multiple purposes, but you can’t list one.

Because intercourse does a lot of things. But physiologically? That’s not a question of purpose. Just mechanical function. That’s what physiology is.

Category error.

That’s why you avoided the question when I clearly asked it as a biology question:

Because it’s a category error on your part.

So “external” to the body actually means internal to the body

Completely incoherent

Again, if it’s part of her, she gets to remove it.

If it’s not, she gets to reject it from her body.

Pick your poison. Your position breaks down either way.

Well, no, actually. You rely on “liberty” as the benchmark for tyranny, but fail to provide any moral grounds for distinguishing between liberty that is permissible and liberty that is an abuse.

How many times are we going to circle this, Harry?

Liberty is the default. The null. The beginning place. There is no rule that says we can’t constrain it for good reason - and we do. It’s just that “my preferred god” is not a sufficient reason for anyone other than the people who affirm that god.

Actually they are “people” in precisely the same way that you and I are

No they aren’t. They don’t work, they don’t express ideas, they don’t have the cognitive capacity to do anything.

Again, no mystery here. Personhood is progressive. When you get to a certain age, you get certain rights. When you get older, you get more.

What was the minimum age of property transaction in the Roman Empire? 21? 23? I forget…

And either way, the personhood of the fetus in no way overrides that of the mother. First and foremost, she gets to choose what she wants to do with her body. Slavery is immoral.

Right, a helpless, vulnerable, tiny creature on "life support’ is “REFUSING” to leave.

Perhaps the “cops” should send in a trained negotiator to agree to the terms of departure.

Seems your analogy has lost something in translation.

As I’ve said elsewhere, the minute you come up with a way for a woman who just discovered she pregnant to end that pregnancy without killing the fetus, I’ll agree to an abortion ban that second.

Until then…

 

[Hume]

However, this principle returns to @spiritualsamurai’s point: If a mother may kill her child to avoid the risks associated with pregnancy, then it follows a homeowner may kill an unwanted guest to avoid the risks associated with an unwanted guest.

It follows that she may undergo the reasonable minimum effort to remove the unwanted guest.

It’s not a license to kill the guest unless that’s the only way to remove them.

Therefore, I wonder if you have hidden a skeleton within you, and you are attempting to justify a poor decision of yours from the past.

Nope. I’m a guy. Never had an abortion, never asked a girl to get one.

Lastly, you are correct, there are no risk free pregnancies. Yet even worse, there is a guarantee that every abortion kills at least one person.

Agreed.

May you alter your position to advocate for the voice less sooner than later, while continuing to care for the distressed mothers.

This is exactly why I want to make abortion as rare as possible without forcing anyone’s hand.

Easily obtained birth control and quality sex ed help prevent unwanted pregnancy - preventing the dilemma.

Guaranteed maternity leave and health insurance for mom and baby help quash the financial reasons to get an abortion.

Let’s get these last two done, like every other civilized country on the planet.

 

[Pattylt]

Wiki statistics for US show * A 1996 study of thousands of US women showed that, of pregnancies resulting from rape, 50% were aborted, 12% resulted in miscarriage, and 38% were brought to term and either placed for adoption or raised.[12*

This article in New Yorker discusses interviews with rape victims

The Legitimate Children of Rape | The New Yorker

Statistics are hard to come by. Many rapes are never reported. With 50% of rape victims getting an abortion, I’d say the odds are pretty high that she wants that Other (what one woman called the baby) out of there.
Reminder, I’m not catholic and rape pregnancy is one area that I feel women should be allowed the choice. In some cases, it is beyond cruel to force her to carry to term. I understand the catholic point of view, I just disagree with it.

 

[Stephen168]

After 44 years of marriage, reproduction is the only thing I have NEEDED copulation for. And copulation is made possible by the design of the reproductive organs; male and female.

Not at all. It has multiple purposes and you’ve biologically evolved to need all of them.

[List some needs.]

The “need” I refer to is a physiological drive.

Physiological - consistent with the function of an organism. A drive or intent is not the function.

Yes, the need I refer to is physiological, so basically, you got nothing. You can’t list one other physiological purpose unique to intercourse let alone multiple purposes. You could not refute the main point of my post to someone else, yet you felt a need to respond to it.

Yes, this is not a theological argument; it is a biological one.

Because intercourse does a lot of things. But physiologically ? That’s not a question of purpose. Just mechanical function. That’s what physiology is .

List the multiple purposes(functions)/lots of things that are unique to intercourse besides reproduction.

 

[JimG]

The Carthaginians practiced child sacrifice. So did the Aztecs. Still it continues in our post-Christian era. Moloch is never satiated.