Arguing About Abortion

[Hume]

Hume:

And a mother doesn’t deserve to carry a child she doesn’t want - also subject to irreversible outcomes.

So let’s let the ladies choose for themselves.

She is responsible for her deeds and I am not talking about rape. She took the risk so now its on her.

The consent to sex is not the consent to pregnancy.

The contraception industry (which is in the multi-billions of dollars) existentially proves this.

 

[Hume]

It’s a misconception. You can read Nostra Aetate if you’re interested. Jews, Christians and Muslims worship the same God. Arabic Christians also call him Allah.

No, they don’t.

they’re all 3 Abrahamic religions, but the Christian god is triune, the Muslim and Jewish god is not.
Muslim god orders the killing of Jews, the Jewish god does not.

You’re only correct if you mean that all three are generally monotheistic in their current expressions (with some reservations on the Christian trinity expressed by some).

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

The consent to sex is not the consent to pregnancy.

The contraception industry (which is in the multi-billions of dollars) existentially proves this.

Consent isn’t neccessary for responsibilities. If she wants to avoid pregnancy it should be before the fact not after.

 

[Hume]

Hume:

The consent to sex is not the consent to pregnancy.

The contraception industry (which is in the multi-billions of dollars) existentially proves this.

Consent isn’t neccessary for responsibilities. If she wants to avoid pregnancy it should be before the fact not after.

Ah, I’ll remember that the next time I’m in a car-crash, I consented to it by getting into my car

 

[Neithan]

Generally it’s poor form to tell someone what they believe. I’ve linked the relevant document for your perusal. There is one God, revealed to Abraham, which the Abrahamic religions all worship. We have different doctrines but we believe in the same God.

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

Ah, I’ll remember that the next time I’m in a car-crash, I consented to it by getting into my car

That’s a strawman.

I said consent doesn’t change anything or is otherwise irrelevant to having to deal with the consequences. Fortunately help can be provided and it should be the goal of the country to make it a priority.

 

[Hume]

Sure.

Apologies.

At this point we’ll have to agree to disagree. There are plenty of Catholic apologists who happily and very enthusiastically side with me. They’re not the same god. But as you wish.

I’ll give you this - they were the same god… roughly… 3000-4000 years ago.

 

[Neithan]

Again, please read the linked document, see in particular part 3. I’d encourage you to start a new thread about it though if you disagree; it’s an opportunity to learn.

 

[jofa]

No, most of us realize the peril to the child. We just also recognize the peril to the mother in addition to her fundamental right to govern the body her consciousness inhabits.

I have a question for you about a woman’s autonomy:
What about her autonomy when choosing to participate in the only act that produces a new human life?
Understanding you are not Catholic, wouldn’t you at least be against abortions that aren’t a result of rape and aren’t due to a danger to the woman’s physical health?

 

[Hume]

Hume:

No, most of us realize the peril to the child. We just also recognize the peril to the mother in addition to her fundamental right to govern the body her consciousness inhabits.

I have a question for you about a woman’s autonomy:
What about her autonomy when choosing to participate in the only act that produces a new human life?
Understanding you are not Catholic, wouldn’t you at least be against abortions that aren’t a result of rape and aren’t a danger to the woman’s physical health?

I’m not particularly in favor of abortion. I think it’s an unfortunate thing to have happen.

That said, you’re right. I’m not Catholic. As such, I do believe that the unitive and reproductive aspects of sex are separate things. For example, I remember my early days trying to conceive my first. We were so focused on trying to hit all the “windows” that the act sorta quit being fun - it was very much reproductive sex and not particularly unitive.

Now that my wife and I both employ very high success-rate forms of contraception (as we’re not Catholic), we only appreciate the unitive aspect of it now.

An unexpected pregnancy is almost always endangering unless you’re a young, healthy wife of a millionaire. There’s almost always a physical cost and unexpected children are one of the basic drivers of poverty and, in some cases, crime.

So let’s make unwanted pregnancy as rare as we can with all methods available. And when the unexpected pregnancy pops up, let’s eliminate the reasons a woman would want to abort the baby. Give mom and baby health insurance. Give mom a year of paid maternity leave.

In this way, be more pro-life than pro-birth. And in always respecting mom’s freedom to choose, we can also be pro choice.

That’s where I stand.

 

[jofa]

I accept that’s where you stand, and I understand why. I just think it’s flawed logic (just my opinion). Because you support a woman’s autonomy selectively. I believe the woman has autonomy before sex. She knows sex can result in pregnancy. It is therefore her responsibility to choose rightly and not participate if she does not want children. That is certainly the lesser evil. If she does participate then she takes on that responsibility, which, as you mentioned, usually results in either poverty and crime, or as we know, the destruction of a unique, unrepeatable human being.

You have also stated your belief that a woman’s life trumps an unborn baby’s life. That seems rather disturbing, as we all know the unborn baby is alive, human, and has a completely unique set of DNA. So it is, scientifically speaking, a unique and sepetate human being.

This analogy is pertinent (if you concede the above):

“I got married too young. It was terrible and all we did was fight. I couldn’t finish my education because I had to get a job, etc.
So I killed my wife.
Now I’m remarried. I finished college, got a degree, and have a good job. So it turned out to be the right decision”
(In this analogy, the divorce option isn’t on the table)

That is similar to the arguments we hear from pro-choice women a lot.

 

[Hume]

I accept that’s where you stand, and I understand why. I just think it’s flawed logic (just my opinion). Because you support a woman’s autonomy selectively. I believe the woman has autonomy before sex. She knows sex can result in pregnancy. It is therefore her responsibility to choose rightly and not participate if she does not want children. That is certainly the lesser evil. If she does participate then she takes on that responsibility, which, as you mentioned, usually results in either poverty and crime, or as we know, the destruction of a unique, unrepeatable human being.

I understand your view, but I don’t think my respect of her autonomy is selective. She ought to have it from birth to death and even during pregnancy.

You have also stated your belief that a woman’s life trumps an unborn baby’s life. That seems rather disturbing, as we all know the unborn baby is alive, human, and has a completely unique sat of DNA. So it is, scientifically speaking, a unique and sepetate human being.

Absolutely. That’s not in question to me.

But it requires mom’s body. And if she doesn’t want to offer it, no one should make her do it.

“I got married too young. It was terrible and all we did was fight. I couldn’t finish my education because I had to get a job, etc.
So I killed my wife.
Now I’m remarried. I finished college, got a degree, and have a good job. So it turned out to be the right decision”
(In this analogy, the divorce option isn’t on the table)

But in reality, divorce is an option.

In the case with abortion, if you guys come up with a way to remove a fetus from a woman’s body without killing it - hey. Let’s outlaw all abortion tomorrow. In that case, she can retain her bodily autonomy and it can live. We both win.

That is similar to the arguments we hear from pro-choice women a lot.

Yeah, nothing new under the sun here, at any rate. With ya there.

 

[Servant31]

Sure. What we have here is a conflict. It’s between a mother’s right of bodily autonomy and the supposed “right” of the child to live.

For a myriad of reasons, will always go to mom.

she is a “person” in a way the unborn isn’t and out constitution forbids her enslavement.

That is however the conflict. We believe that life begins at conception. You believe that it begins at a point you have defined. In that context you state “she is a person in the way the unborn isn’t”. Except that’s where we will always disagree.

By that statement one has determined that you can define when life begins. As Catholics we believe that that right is God given, and isn’t definable by man. Your referencing the constitution, and relying on it as a foundation for rights. But the constitution guarantees rights under the presumption that they are “endowed by their Creator”, not simply inherited by force. That is why the rights we enjoy are inviolable.

So by referencing the constitution as the basis for a mothers rights, your presuming upon the inviolability of that right (hence the argument “it’s my body I can do with it as I choose”). But then denying that same inviolability of the rights of the child by presuming that you have the right to decide when life begins. And if another life is destroyed by your decision then so be it because it’s right exists underneath, or inferior to your own. Thats the contradiction. You’ve assumed the right, then used that right to deny another.

 

[jofa]

I understand your view, but I don’t think my respect of her autonomy is selective. She ought to have it from birth to death and even during pregnancy.

Yet, again, you ignore her autonomy when she chose to have sex. That was autonomy too, and it comes with responsibility for the new life created. Autonomy across the board or none at all.

 

[Hume]

That is however the conflict. We believe that life begins at conception. You believe that it begins at a point you have defined.

No, I also maintain that life begins at conception. But you’re not entitled to most of your liberties and freedoms until you’re born. And you’re entitled to more when you turn 18.

We know this because when my sister had a still-born, there was no investigation by police to ensure no wrong-doing. It wasn’t yet a “person” in the same way as the man found dead in his apartment - which does necessitate investigation.

But the constitution guarantees rights under the presumption that they are “endowed by their Creator”, not simply inherited by force. That is why the rights we enjoy are inviolable.

Well, the ugly, skeptical truth is that you effectively have no rights if the police/military/whatever are unwilling to defend them on your behalf.

 

[Hume]

Hume:

I understand your view, but I don’t think my respect of her autonomy is selective. She ought to have it from birth to death and even during pregnancy.

Yet, again, you ignore her autonomy when she chose to have sex. That was autonomy too, and it comes with responsibility for the new life created. Autonomy across the board or none at all.

The consent to sex is not the consent to pregnancy.

As my wife and I both use highly effective contraceptives, we no more consent to babies during sex than we consent to a car crash by getting into our cars.

They’re outcomes that are rare and we want to avoid as best we can.

 

[jofa]

Yet we know that even the best contraceptives fail sometimes (and if people don’t, then the answer is better education on the matter). So you are always facing that possibility. And as I said, everyone knows where babies come from.

 

[Hume]

Yet we know that even the best contraceptives fail sometimes (and if people don’t, then the answer is better education on the matter). So you are always facing that possibility. And as I said, everyone knows where babies come from.

Sure, but it doesn’t change the reality that when most folks jump in the sack, they’re usually not consenting to reproduction on any conscious level.

Regardless, we agree abortion is tragic. We should do absolutely everything we can to avoid unwanted pregnancy.

 

[jofa]

Okay. Wish you both all the best!

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

The consent to sex is not the consent to pregnancy.

Pregnancy doesn’t need consent because it is a responsibility. (I’m not talking about rape cases.)

As my wife and I both use highly effective contraceptives, we no more consent to babies during sex than we consent to a car crash by getting into our cars.

That proves the point that consent will not stop things from happening.