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Potato1237
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Thanks Edwin. Those are good points and I need to grow my faith.
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Potato1237
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That is certainly true.
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Peter_J
Guest
Not to mention that you’d still have the same problem if you left Catholicism.
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LutheranScholar
Guest
You’re absolutely right and there are plenty of social media out there that host posters who would be more than happy to take a Christian’s faith away for the sake of what passes as knowledge in today’s society. That’s why we need to put on the whole armor of God that St. Paul speaks of in his Epistle to the Ephesians ( Ephesians 6:10-18) so we can meet these challenges to our faith and emerge victorious, by the grace of God.
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Peter_J
Guest
What about those who do it in the name of religion?
(I won’t name names – it would take too long.
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Potato1237
Guest
I just can’t accept some things. Fatima for example all seems contrary to the gospel. How can any good Christian (Catholics included) accept Mary saying “only I can help you.” ??
On top of that, all of the predictions and prophecies of Fatima turned out false. Plus they were released after the claimed events. I just don’t know anymore. I want to believe in Fatima, but I just can’t seem to.
On top of that, all of the predictions and prophecies of Fatima turned out false. Plus they were released after the claimed events. I just don’t know anymore. I want to believe in Fatima, but I just can’t seem to.
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Potato1237
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On this forum, I have seen people say it was a “sun dog” and not a true miracle.
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LiamQ
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Because the context of that quote is very simple: certain things will not occur unless people pray the Rosary and Mary intercedes with God.
The only rationale for praying at all is that God wills to give certain graces only if they are asked for. This is because He desires to work with His creation in order to give His gifts. We cooperate with God to do everything from telling people the Gospel, to having children, to raising them as Christians, to praying for each other. God created us as a society. Like Pope St. John XXIII said, “We are saved like grapes—in bunches.”
So given that, why isn’t it reasonable to conclude that the very vessel through whom the Second Person of the Most Holy Trinity was incarnated should have a special role in praying for others?
If God will only give graces if people ask for them, and if the prayer of a righteous man avails much, then is it unreasonable that the Mother of God would be given a role to intercede for certain things—such as peace and an end of World War I? Of course that’s not unreasonable. It fits everything we already know about the nature of prayer and intercession.
So yes, I consider myself a Catholic Christian, and I’m not at all confused by the notion that God wants people to pray the Rosary and to ask Mary for her intercession.
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LiamQ
Guest
What else are people going to say when they have an *a priori *commitment to reject Fatima?
I’ve even heard of people calling the Miracle of the Sun a UFO.
I ask you.
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Lenten_ashes
Guest
I’m indifferent on Fatima. I guess if i had a gun held to my head i would say I’m not buying into it.
It’s not part of the deposit of the faith so not really concerned about it.
But let’s just look at it for a moment.
If Jesus is the head of the body of Christ, then you would have to say that Mary is the neck…nobody on this planet was/is closer to him than she is. Read John 2, when Mary asks, Jesus responds, even if it’s inconvenient. .
The scriptures say that the prayer of the righteous availeth much ( James 5:16 ) Tell me what created being is/was more righteous than she is? The answer is NOBODY.
Mary’s petitions mean quite a bit to God. Just look at Revelation 12…if that is her like we think it is, then it actually sort of coincides with Fatima(woman clothed with the sun)
When you read the full context of what is said, she is begging and pleading for humanity to stop offending God. Well, she has occupied heaven for 2000 years so she would know the situation there.
And just a side note…this was 100 years ago…a time when the earth was much more moral than we are. I think Mary must be slamming her head against the wall in disgust with how immoral we are and how much we offend God in this age.
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Peter_J
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I think Fatima is a difficulty for many people. All the more so if they don’t get the idea of it being “approved” (as opposed to Catholics being *required *to believe in it). Or perhaps in your case you realize that but have not fully taken it to heart?
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Potato1237
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Right. I Understand that they are not a requirement for belief, I just don’t see why it was approved. Wouldn’t former apparitions warn about false ones? Then again, maybe I’m looking at it from an overly Protestant point of view.
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Peter_J
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This may not help, but regardless here is what en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_F%C3%A1tima#Official_position_of_the_Catholic_Church says:
I believe that many people see the fact that it had millions of followers before being approved as assurance that the decision was right, but that many other people see it in just the opposite way.
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IgnatianPhilo
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Has your friend read the Fathers or the Mystics? If he criticises them he should be able to say he has given them a fair hearing.
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Potato1237
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That’s why it’s confusing though. So God knows what we want but we can only receive the graces unless we ask for the intercession of Mary?
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Potato1237
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True. There is much speculation on whether the woman clothed with the sun is Mary or Israel. And yes, we are awful in this day and age.
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Potato1237
Guest
My friends were not behind it this time lol.
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Lenten_ashes
Guest
Could also be a symbolic reference to Israel . But consider the fact that no where in scripture is Israel referred to as a woman giving birth to Messiah.
But we do see Mary being foretold in Gen 3:15 and Isaiah 7:14 as the one giving birth to Messiah as in Rev 12
Speaking of Gen 3:15, compare that with Rev 12…you see Mary in both cases as a team member for Jesus and arch enemy of Satan.
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Potato1237
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Lenten ashes I agree. Also, the references in the old and New Testament comparing Mary to the ark is profound. In terms of revelation 12, I feel like the Israel arguement is a good one considering in a way, Israel did bring forth or give birth to Jesus. Also, we know that revelation is filled with symbolism meaning the woman would not necessarily be an actually woman. I have heard that the crown of 12 stars symbolizes the 12 tribes of Israel. On the other hand, John’s vision included the woman crying out with the pangs of birth and the child being taken up to heaven. It can certainly be argued that the birth pangs were the life of Jesus and how Mary suffered during the times of his life; especially of course, when he was crucified. I’d say that both sides could be correct.
Also important to note that in the New Testament, Mary is addressed as woman which we see the “woman” in genesis and revelation.
I have heard the arguement that the woman is Sarah from the old testement which is quite faulty. I have also heard the the woman symbolizes the invisible church that fundamentalist like to talk about. This is also a bad arguement.
Also important to note that in the New Testament, Mary is addressed as woman which we see the “woman” in genesis and revelation.
I have heard the arguement that the woman is Sarah from the old testement which is quite faulty. I have also heard the the woman symbolizes the invisible church that fundamentalist like to talk about. This is also a bad arguement.
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Lenten_ashes
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I see you have done some homework potato, very good!!!
It’s not either/or though, as the fundamentalists like to claim… The twelve stars do very likely represent the 12 tribes of Israel. But remember that Mary is a Jew herself in the same lineage as King David. And she is the one actually birthing the Lord.
And speaking of the Ark, look at Rev 11:19 right before REV 12. Who appears? God’s Ark:
Now remember, chapter divisions were not part of the bible. They were added in the 12th century.
So you have the Ark of the OT appearing, and then immediately after that you see the ARK of the NT appearing in Mary. Makes perfect sense from a Catholic POV.
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