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Jermosh
Guest
The Rosary is not really about St Mary. Its a meditative prayer that is using Sr Mary as focus to understand Jesus better and the mysteries would be more accurate.
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JustaServant
Guest
I found it to be the most bizarre thing. We sing to our mothers once a year, why not the mother Jesus gave to us all?You know, that is really a very good point!
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Zooey
Guest
Exactly!!!
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crazzeto
Guest
Who does this person think that these promises came from? Mary has no power to appear to anyone on her own, more over make any promises regarding salvation on her own. God sent her to Saint Dominic, God made the promises, he choose to use Mary to communicate the message.
It’s interesting to note how these promises work, I feel it working in my life. It’s not an automatic thing like this person thinks, then again this person probably also mistakenly thinks that you are “saved” at one point in your life and it can’t ever be undon by anything.
The promise works through the earlier promise of conversion. Praying the rosary will convert you to the faith radically when prayed faithfully. With such a radical conversion you tend not to want to sin gravely any more. You’ll struggle with it, but when you keep praying and keep struggling you will likely end up not being lost.
At least that is my take on it.
Wesley,
I’m fairly vocal here about the high regard and love I have for the Blessed Virgin, but I can tell you that these kinds of sentiments seem to represent a somewhat over-the-top devotion to her. That said, faith can be an emotional thing, and emoions often are reflected in words. And sometimes, overly emotional words need to be overlooked.
The angel called her full of grace, and blessed among women for good reason. Unemotional apathy, much less outright disregard, toward the Holy Theotokos seems even more inexplicable.
Jon
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thenobes
Guest
Mary was given the title Queen of Heaven in Heaven itself. Her name gives her tremendous intercessory power.
nuff said
She tells us, “Do whatever He tells you”. She leads you to faith.
peace
steve
Ad Jesum per Mariam
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Good_Fella
Guest
The faithful daily recitation of the Rosary is a sign of election. Our Blessed Mother has also promised to mediate all the actual graces necessary for our salvation through her prayerful intercession: the grace of faith, hope, love, and final perseverance being among them as the most important. St. Peter teaches us that we who are recipients of divine grace are stewards of the graces we have received. It is the grace of God which is dispensed through Mary’s mediation that prevents the soul from perishing. Her prayers are helpful and beneficial as long as we sincerely implore her to solicit for us the fruitful application of divine grace. All this is possible only because of Christ’s atonement. He alone merits for us de condigno proprie the graces we receive through the meritorious prayers of the saints de congruo proprie. Mary mediates on our behalf in and through the principal mediation of her divine Son, who by the merits of his precious blood allows the outpouring of divine grace.
First of all, then, I ask that supplications, prayers, petitions, and thanksgiving be offered for everyone,…This is good and pleasing to God our saviour, who wills everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
1 Timothy 2, 1-4
For you are saved by grace through faith; and this is not of yourselves; it is God’s gift.
Ephesians 2, 8
As every man hath received grace, ministering the same one to another: as good stewards of the manifold grace of God.
1 Peter 4, 10
The prayer of a righteous man avails much.
James 5, 16
The Lord hears the prayer of the righteous.
Proverbs 15, 29
When the wine was gone, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.”
John 2, 2
PAX :harp:
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Good_Fella
Guest
In strict justice, Christ alone is the principle of all merit. Thus we can never merit the grace of God by appealing to our natural selves. However, God does dispense his grace through the prayers of the righteous, including our own by faith, in honour of their inherent righteousness (the fruit of the infusion of divine grace and their collaboration with it) and by right of friendship.
“I sear by myself, declares the Lord, that because you acted as you did in not holding from me your beloved son, I will bless you abundantly and make your descendants as countless as the stars of the sky and the sands of the seashore; your descendants will take possession of the gates of your enemies, and in your descendants all the nations of the earth shall find blessing – all this because you obeyed my command.”
Genesis 22, 16-18
And Mary said, “Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord. Let it be done to me according to your word.”
Luke 1, 38
Mary faithfully let go of her Son when she consecrated him to the Lord at his presentation in the temple. As a result, we find God’s blessings through her mediation in and through Christ. She who helped deliver the Source of all grace has been honoured with the role of dispensing His grace through her continual intercession on our behalf.
PAX :heaven:
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jimmaguire
Guest
Hi,
My name is Jim.
I just wanted you to be aware that the Old Testament passage used works against you in this argument because in 1 Kings 2:22-23 tells us that Solomon disagrees with his mother and has Adonijah put to death. So in this instance I think you might have used the wrong passage.
I have heard it used for this before and a Protestant is just going to turn to it and say well that is how good a Catholic knows his or her’s Bible.
I hope you don’t mind the correction unless I got something wrong then I am sorry for that.
In the Trinities Love.
My name is Jim.
I just wanted you to be aware that the Old Testament passage used works against you in this argument because in 1 Kings 2:22-23 tells us that Solomon disagrees with his mother and has Adonijah put to death. So in this instance I think you might have used the wrong passage.
I have heard it used for this before and a Protestant is just going to turn to it and say well that is how good a Catholic knows his or her’s Bible.
I hope you don’t mind the correction unless I got something wrong then I am sorry for that.
In the Trinities Love.
E
EricFilmer
Guest
All Christians believe that it is important to read the gospels.
All Christians believe that it is important to preach the gospels.
But what about the idea of praying the gospels?
One might ask, “Well, that sounds good, but exactly how would a person do this?”
With that question in mind, let us consider what Thistle posted:
All Christians believe that it is important to preach the gospels.
But what about the idea of praying the gospels?
One might ask, “Well, that sounds good, but exactly how would a person do this?”
With that question in mind, let us consider what Thistle posted:
Praying the Rosary is therefore a practical way of praying the gospels. I once heard Fr. John Corapi make this point, and have passed it on ever since.
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Monica4316
Guest
We come to Jesus through Mary
there’s no competition between them
there’s no competition between them
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cs80918
Guest
In my bible John 19:26-27 reads.
John 19:26-27 When Jesus therfore saw His mother, and the disciple whom he loved standing by, he said to his mother, “Woman behold your son!” Then he said to the discple, “Behold your mother!” and from that hour that disciple took her to his own home.
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JustaServant
Guest
I’m sure it was a typo.
No need for sarcasm
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cs80918
Guest
Sarcasm? Not at all.
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Miguel_Sastre
Guest
Hi,
I’d like to respectfully give my dissenting opinion on the Rosary.
3b. “Hail Mary full of grace,” is widely recognized as a mistranslation of κεχαριτωμένη in Luke 1:28. Would Catholics be willing to change the “Hail Mary,” in order to align it with their own, Catholic translations of Luke 1:28? (Why do I suspect they would not? And if they’re not willing, isn’t this a case of trumping scripture with errant traditions of men–in this case an errant tradition of translation?)
Anyway, my basic issue is that I simply reject the idea that one grows closer to God by going through Mary. This, in my view, is where Catholicism has departed from the gospel by introducing another mediator and quite possibly another redeemer.
Solus Christus,
Miguel Sastre
I’d like to respectfully give my dissenting opinion on the Rosary.
- The first problem I have is that it seems like it is first and foremost a prayer to Mary. I know Catholics often reply, “not to, but through,” but that doesn’t come across that clearly when the “our Fathers” are outnumbered 10 : 1 by the “hail Mary’s.” Of course, if you don’t think it’s okay to pray to anyone but the God, then of course you’re going to have a problem with the Rosary.
- It seems to me that Catholics “say,” rather than “pray” the Rosary. It sounds more like a recital than a prayer. Of course, that’s probably my extemporaneous bias coming through, so I won’t knock it just because it’s structured or formulaic. After all, even Jesus said, “when you pray, say” (Luke 11:2). So if we can “say” prayers, then what prayers can we “say?” Jesus gives us a prayer and we would do well to pray it. But I wonder if the “Hail Mary,” or “Salve Regina” in the Rosary are in fact the kinds of prayers Jesus would approve of.
3b. “Hail Mary full of grace,” is widely recognized as a mistranslation of κεχαριτωμένη in Luke 1:28. Would Catholics be willing to change the “Hail Mary,” in order to align it with their own, Catholic translations of Luke 1:28? (Why do I suspect they would not? And if they’re not willing, isn’t this a case of trumping scripture with errant traditions of men–in this case an errant tradition of translation?)
- I’m not going to mention the “babbling” or “vain repetition” of Matthew 6:7-9, simply because there’s just as much of that in Evangelicalism. But the very structure of the Rosary seems like it can easily lead to this.
- Lastly, the one time the disciples asked Jesus to teach them to pray (Luke 11:1), he gave them a prayer to say, but also a model for praying. What Jesus gave them is so unlike the Rosary, that it seems dubious to me that he could ever have imagined us praying to anyone else but the Father. How could the addition of the “Hail Mary’s” and the “Salve Regina” ever be an answer to the request, “Lord teach us to pray,” given what Jesus actually taught them in Luke 11?
Anyway, my basic issue is that I simply reject the idea that one grows closer to God by going through Mary. This, in my view, is where Catholicism has departed from the gospel by introducing another mediator and quite possibly another redeemer.
Solus Christus,
Miguel Sastre
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JustaServant
Guest
Part of understanding the Communion of Saints, is that we ask for those living and dead to intercede or carry our prayers to Jesus.
Mary is a part of this Communion of Saints.
She is in a very real sense, our mystical connection to the spiritual Church.
How do we understand this?
In Gen. 3:15 we see from the very beginning that God gives Mary a unique role in salvation history. God says “I will put enmity between you and the woman, between your seed and her seed.” The phrase “her seed” is not seen elsewhere in Scripture. The Scriptures begin and end with the woman battling Satan. This teaches us that Jesus and Mary are the new Adam and the new Eve. In John 2:4 and 19:26 Jesus calls Mary “woman” as she is called in Gen. 3:15. Just as Eve was the mother of the old creation, Mary is the mother of the new creation. This woman’s seed will crush the serpent’s skull.Isaiah 7:14 and Matt. 1:23 tell us a virgin will bear a Son named Emmanuel, which means “God is with us.” Luke 1:35 tells us the child will be called holy, the Son of God. Mary is the Mother of the Son of God, or the Mother of God (the “Theotokos”). In Luke 1:43 Elizabeth says Mary is the “Mother of my Lord” which is the equivalent of “Holy Mary, Mother of God”. Jesus is a divine person, and this person is God. Mary is Jesus’ Mother, so Mary is the mother of God.
Luke 1:28 states “Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you.” These are the words spoken by God and delivered to us by the angel Gabriel. When Catholics recite this verse while praying the Rosary, they are uttering the very words of God. The phrase “full of grace”. This is a unique title given to Mary, and suggests a perfection of grace from a past event. Mary is not just “highly favored.” She has been perfected in grace by God. A few verses down, Luke 1:42 says “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus.” The phrase “blessed are you among women” really means “you are most blessed of all women.” Luke 1:48 says Mary prophesies that all generations shall call her blessed, as Catholics do in the “Hail Mary”. Gal. 4:4 - God sent His Son, born of a woman, to redeem us. By calling Mary co-redemptrix, Catholics are simply calling Mary “the woman with the redeemer.” Mary had a unique but subordinate role to Jesus in salvation.
Mary is a part of this Communion of Saints.
She is in a very real sense, our mystical connection to the spiritual Church.
How do we understand this?
In Gen. 3:15 we see from the very beginning that God gives Mary a unique role in salvation history. God says “I will put enmity between you and the woman, between your seed and her seed.” The phrase “her seed” is not seen elsewhere in Scripture. The Scriptures begin and end with the woman battling Satan. This teaches us that Jesus and Mary are the new Adam and the new Eve. In John 2:4 and 19:26 Jesus calls Mary “woman” as she is called in Gen. 3:15. Just as Eve was the mother of the old creation, Mary is the mother of the new creation. This woman’s seed will crush the serpent’s skull.Isaiah 7:14 and Matt. 1:23 tell us a virgin will bear a Son named Emmanuel, which means “God is with us.” Luke 1:35 tells us the child will be called holy, the Son of God. Mary is the Mother of the Son of God, or the Mother of God (the “Theotokos”). In Luke 1:43 Elizabeth says Mary is the “Mother of my Lord” which is the equivalent of “Holy Mary, Mother of God”. Jesus is a divine person, and this person is God. Mary is Jesus’ Mother, so Mary is the mother of God.
Luke 1:28 states “Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you.” These are the words spoken by God and delivered to us by the angel Gabriel. When Catholics recite this verse while praying the Rosary, they are uttering the very words of God. The phrase “full of grace”. This is a unique title given to Mary, and suggests a perfection of grace from a past event. Mary is not just “highly favored.” She has been perfected in grace by God. A few verses down, Luke 1:42 says “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus.” The phrase “blessed are you among women” really means “you are most blessed of all women.” Luke 1:48 says Mary prophesies that all generations shall call her blessed, as Catholics do in the “Hail Mary”. Gal. 4:4 - God sent His Son, born of a woman, to redeem us. By calling Mary co-redemptrix, Catholics are simply calling Mary “the woman with the redeemer.” Mary had a unique but subordinate role to Jesus in salvation.
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JustaServant
Guest
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Victorious
Guest
This 10:1 ratio of Hail Marys to Our Fathers is straight out of Jimmy Swaggart, and therefore not worthwhile. It’s not even accurate, but I digress. You can of course pray to anyone in addition to God, and not just in the context of addressing heaven. Children address prayers to their parents all the time. I make prayers for relief all the time in court. “Pray” means to ask, beg, request, and prayer is not necessarily addressed to God. The difficulty only comes from conflating prayer and worship. Worship is due to God alone. (Adoration is also due to God alone: we do not adore Mary, the saints or the angels. Adoration is not to be confused with veneration.) Your position leaves you with no choice but to substitute prayer for worship because, since you have rejected the priesthood, you have also rejected true worship (i.e., the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, which is Calvary itself).
We don’t have to wonder whether or not Jesus would approve of those prayers. We have the Church’s word for it that He does, and the Church speaks with His authority. “He whohears you hears Me, and he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me.” Luke 10:16. We also have the witness of the many benefits and blessings that come to us through the use of these prayers.
Wow. And the Church is accused of being legalistic.
By whom is this alleged mistranslation widely recognized? And there is no more errant tradition of men trumping Scripture than the beloved Protestant doctrine of sola scriptura, which is clean contrary to Scripture itself.
Only to someone rendering judgment based on what he gets through the narrow window of his outsider’s view. Here is what you are missing. An essential part of praying the Rosary is meditating on the life of Christ. “I will meditate on all Thy work, and muse on Thy mighty deeds.” Psalm 77:12.
Once again, the excruciating legalism of Protestantism. Where is the freedom of the children of God? This is the result of struggling to be true to the traditions of men.
There is nothing superstitious about acknowledging the relative efficacy of prayers, especially when it is proven by the great blessings that certain prayers draw down upon us. There is no more efficacious prayer than Holy Mass, which is none other than the Sacrifice of Calvary, re-presented in an unbloody manner, according to Jesus’ own command: “Do this in remembrance of Me.” God also shows His approval of the Rosary, not only by the voice of His Church but also by the many favors, spiritual and temporal, He has granted to those who pray it. God certainly approves of some things more than others, and there are certainly some things that please Him more than others; we ought to try to do more of what we know pleases Him.
Well, you’re wrong. And you are quite right when you say it is your view, because it’s just the opinion of men, utterly lacking in authority, and nothing more. That’s all you end up with when you try to be your own Magisterium.
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EricFilmer
Guest
From an objective linguistic point of view, the Greek may be legitimately translated as “full of grace” or “highly favored one.” The question is, which one should the reader choose? St. Jerome chose “full of grace”, as we can see in his Latin Vulgate translation of the Gospel of Luke. The compilers of the Revised Standard Version of the Bible likewise chose “full of grace”, and the care and accuracy of the RSV to properly represent the original Hebrew and Greek is acclaimed by many Scripture scholars, both Catholic and Protestant.
Sure, there are some scholars who claim that “highly favored one” is the better translation, but I am inclined to go with the translation of St. Jerome, arguably the greatest Greek scholar the world has ever known.
And here is another thought concerning the Rosary, written by a Lutheran pastor:
“And so it should be the hope of Christians everywhere who desire greater unity in the Church, that we encourage the return of the Rosary to devotional life, recognizing that through Mary, we can come to know Christ.”
- Charles Dickson, *A Protestant Pastor Looks at Mary *(Our Sunday Visitor, Inc.: Huntington, Indiana, 1996), 95.
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Miguel_Sastre
Guest
If “objective” means “formal equivalence,” then there is no way to get “full of grace” out of
κεχαριτωμένη. In other words, if you want to have an accurate rendering of the Greek, then “full of grace,” isn’t a good choice. The Bible does say “full of grace” or πλήρης χάριτος (John 1:14, and Acts 6:8), so if that’s what Luke/Gabriel intended to say about Mary, why not use πλήρης χάριτος as in Acts 6:8 (also written by Luke)? Further, since Catholics infer that Mary was conceived without sin on the basis of Luke 1:28 (which doesn’t actually say, “full of grace,”) could we also infer that Stephen was immaculately conceived since the text (Acts 6:8) actually does say “full of grace?”
And in the opinion of most translators, Jerome made a mistake. Or do you subscribe to the infallibility of Jerome?
I wonder what version of the RSV you’re reading, because mine says “highly favored” (Luke 1:28, RSV). You might want to double-check this.
“Some scholars?” Just “some”? How about almost “all” of them, Protestant and Catholic? And how does one begin to verify who the greatest Greek scholar “the world has ever known” is or may have been? What criteria does one use to make such a judgment? Really, I’d like to know.
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