Arguments against Catholicism

[Yusip]

Part 1 of 2

I want to preface this by stating that I am a born Catholic, albeit not a very good practicing one. On another forum that I frequently visit, in the religious sections I notice a constant them of bashing Catholics sometimes from the very extreme to the not so extreme. A common theme is that in the early days of the Church common pagan holidays were incorporated into the Church, as well as beliefs and practices, to make the faith appeal to a wider mass of people. I don’t know what to say to this because I am not well versed in history as some of these people seem to be.

Recently though, these arguments were made and I just think the majority of them are wrong, but being not well versed in history I’m asking for some help here. I’ll post the argument in bold and my thoughts in italics and encourage any real and relevant information from more educated Catholics amongst us.

1. Both The Roman Catholic Church and Islam believe that only they are the one true church/religion.
this one seems redundant because I’m sure all religions think they’re the one true religion, but I left it in here because in recent years I believe the Catholic Church is trying to reach out to other fragmented Christian faiths for more unity, correct?

2. The Roman Catholic Church and the Islam require mandatory fasting.
I don’t remember mandatory fasting, since when? Maybe I’ve fallen away too far, but correct me if I am wrong - there is no mandatory fasting in Catholicism right?

3. The Roman Catholic Church worships, prays to and gives titles of God to Mary. Islam highly esteems Mary and she is mentioned 34 times in the Qu’ran.
I always thought that referring to Mary as Mother of God was more relevant to proclaiming that Jesus IS God, rather than Mary as being God. Am I correct here?

4. The Roman Catholic Church and Islam base their salvation on a complicated system of works and deny salvation by faith alone. There is no assurance of salvation in either religion.
When my grandfather was dying and receiving his last rite, I distinctly remember the priest asking him if he accepts Jesus as his savior and his death on the cross as atonement for his sins. I believe this is the very first premise of Catholicism, is it not? Am I wrong here? Catholicism is more about balancing faith WITH works, ie; being a good Catholic and Christian by trying to emulate the positives that Jesus displayed, rather than a system of works. Please help me out here.

5. Both cults deny the Biblical view of the Atonement. The Roman Catholic Church doctrine dictates that one must go to Purgatory to have his sins purged, Jesus just paved the way. The Muslims believe their works will save them but will not know until Judgment Day. This is because there is no atonement for sin, and God’s grace does not exist.
*I think this is false about Catholicism. Keep in mind the author of the article here is a funamentalist Christian so he views both Islam and Catholicism as “cults”, he actually even went so far in another article as stating that Catholicism created Islam, something that was too far reaching for me to even finish reading. On the topic of this particular argument, my response would be the same as the one above, because I cannot find anywhere in my teachings the Catholic Church specifically denying the view that Jesus died for our sins and therefore atoned for them. As above, I believe this is the first thing we are taught in Catholicism. *

**6. The Roman Catholic Church claims visions and apparitions in an effort to add false doctrine. **
I don’t know what to say to this. He doesn’t mention what he believes to be false doctrines, so no clue on this one.

7. The Roman Catholic Church uses a rosary for their prayers, Islam uses prayer beads. The rosary/prayer beads are concepts taken from paganism.
Huh?

**8. The Pope is the vicar or substitute of Christ for the Roman Catholic Church. **
*Is the Pope really meant to be a substitute for Christ, or someone who has, through long hours of study and prayer, believed to be one of the closest representatives of God on Earth or closer spiritually to God than the rest of us who haven’t dedicated our entire lives to this pursuit? *

**9. The Roman Catholic Church has their own divorce system. The Roman Catholic Church grant anullments **
Under what circumstances are annullments allowable? I’m under the impression that they are quite hard to obtain unless a spouse cheats? What are the other conditions?

10. The RCC organizations believes that leaving the church will result in eternal damnation.
True or no?

 

[Yusip]

Part 2 of 2

11. The Roman Catholic Church base some of their doctrine on pagan traditions. For The Roman Catholic Church the traditions of a goddess, rosary, pope, relics, purgatory, transubstantiation, praying to dead people, and idol worship are all based on paganism.
*I see this argument a lot, the one that tries to make Catholicism or aspects of the Church seem apologetic to Paganism. The idea that we have Saint we pray to, and other images, or statues in Churches. I’m no expert on paganism, but I also recognize that other traditions use beads (Hinduism for example does), however does that make a substantive correlation to paganism? I’m not convinced. I do have some doubts about praying to statues, something I have observed some of the older ladies in my generation do, but the explanation I remember getting from my priest in my Catechism days was that those statues are merely symbolic to praying to God not that we are worshiping them exclusively, as like the story of the Golden Calf. Insights here?
I also don’t remember being taught to pray to dead people, but for them. Any other insights, please share. *

14. The Roman Catholic Church has added the Apocrypha to support false doctrine.
What is the apocrypha? I looked the term up and it is said to mean this: "The term apocrypha is used with various meanings, including “hidden”, “esoteric”, “spurious”, “of questionable authenticity”, ancient Chinese “revealed texts and objects” and “Christian texts that are not canonical”. So what parts of the Catholic doctrine are considered apocrypha then?

15. The Roman Catholic Church priest system (including Popes) has a history of sexual abuse of women and children.
Unfortunately there are some isolated incidences of this, which are a shame. I do not know to what degree it happens, but I do know that one of the local priests, when I was younger, had an affair with a married woman and last the community heard he was shipped off to Brazil or something. I don’t know what the official stance is on this.

16. The Catholic Church believes in using FORCE to spread their version of the one true god to the unbelievers.
Since when? I mean, the so called “Crusades” are all but over. When was the last time Catholicism was spread by force?

17. Both religions believe in a union with the state or of using the police powers of the state to compel obedience to their tenets.
Uhm, what? I think this one was just trolling.

18 The RCC has a “holy” shrine in which the believers are taught to look to as their headquarters e.g. The Vatican.
The Vatican is obviously the HQ, but how is this argument relevant against Catholicism?

Those were it.

This is my first posting here. I hope to contribute more. I guess I’m coming back to my roots after having spent the last 15+ years just wandering and spuriously reading various “spiritual” and “religious” books, or watching debates (mostly) between two people of various faiths and then using the “almighty Google” to augment whatever I needed to that wasn’t that clear - piecing things together. It’s been over 15 years that I’ve been to Catechism, and I can’t remember all that I was taught clearly, but I do remember not really having “issues” or “discrepancies” to what I was being taught. I remember thinking a lot of my teachers made sense. Then you get out there and are told all kinds of horrible things about your faith which creates some doubt.

I hope to learn from a lot of people here and make more contributions in the future.

Yusip

 

[ESMDHokie77]

Might I suggest a thread for each subject to cut down on the clutter… welcome to CAF!

1. Both The Roman Catholic Church and Islam believe that only they are the one true church/religion.

If you don’t believe you’re in the one true religion, then why are you practicing it? Unless one thinks that all are equal paths, Catholicism can prove they aren’t.

2. The Roman Catholic Church and the Islam require mandatory fasting.

Maybe abstaining from meat on Fridays of Lent, other than that no, but fasting is a pious practice.

3. The Roman Catholic Church worships, prays to and gives titles of God to Mary. Islam highly esteems Mary and she is mentioned 34 times in the Qu’ran.

Yes, you are correct. The Council of Chalcedon in 451 deemed the title Theotokos for Mary was appropriate because JESUS IS GOD. We do not worship Mary, the CCC clearly states we worship the Triune God only.

4. The Roman Catholic Church and Islam base their salvation on a complicated system of works and deny salvation by faith alone. There is no assurance of salvation in either religion.
When my grandfather was dying and receiving his last rite, I distinctly remember the priest asking him if he accepts Jesus as his savior and his death on the cross as atonement for his sins. I believe this is the very first premise of Catholicism, is it not? Am I wrong here? Catholicism is more about balancing faith WITH works, ie; being a good Catholic and Christian by trying to emulate the positives that Jesus displayed, rather than a system of works. Please help me out here.

Nice explanation, seems cogent. There is no assurance of salvation in Catholicism because there is no assurance of salvation in the Bible, the Gospels, etc…

5. Both cults deny the Biblical view of the Atonement. The Roman Catholic Church doctrine dictates that one must go to Purgatory to have his sins purged, Jesus just paved the way. The Muslims believe their works will save them but will not know until Judgment Day. This is because there is no atonement for sin, and God’s grace does not exist.
*I think this is false about Catholicism. Keep in mind the author of the article here is a funamentalist Christian so he views both Islam and Catholicism as “cults”, he actually even went so far in another article as stating that Catholicism created Islam, something that was too far reaching for me to even finish reading. On the topic of this particular argument, my response would be the same as the one above, because I cannot find anywhere in my teachings the Catholic Church specifically denying the view that Jesus died for our sins and therefore atoned for them. As above, I believe this is the first thing we are taught in Catholicism. *

No, one goes to purgatory to finish the remittance of temporal punishment, one who is there was already forgiven of their sins. I’ve heard that ‘Catholic made Islam’ argument too… hogwash.

**6. The Roman Catholic Church claims visions and apparitions in an effort to add false doctrine. **
I don’t know what to say to this. He doesn’t mention what he believes to be false doctrines, so no clue on this one.

Visions and apparitions aren’t used to determine beliefs. He is likely referring to Fatima, Lourdes, Guadalupe, etc… The Church determining that apparitions are worthy of belief does not make such binding on us faithful. Private revelation is binding only on the one receiving the revelation.

7. The Roman Catholic Church uses a rosary for their prayers, Islam uses prayer beads. The rosary/prayer beads are concepts taken from paganism.
Huh?

Oh no we’re counting our prayers on beads!@%$# What are we going to do… oh wait, we are praying Christian prayers…

**8. The Pope is the vicar or substitute of Christ for the Roman Catholic Church. **
*Is the Pope really meant to be a substitute for Christ, or someone who has, through long hours of study and prayer, believed to be one of the closest representatives of God on Earth or closer spiritually to God than the rest of us who haven’t dedicated our entire lives to this pursuit? *

Substitute is an improper word. Your explanation is a bit off I think… The Pope is the successor of Peter who was given the keys to bind and loose (matt 16:18) and to whom it was promised that the gates of hell would not succeed. This gives the doctrine of infallibility, the inability of the Pope or the Church to teach wrong in faith and morals

**9. The Roman Catholic Church has their own divorce system. The Roman Catholic Church grant anullments **
Under what circumstances are annullments allowable? I’m under the impression that they are quite hard to obtain unless a spouse cheats? What are the other conditions?

Annulments aren’t divorces. They aren’t allowed or obtained, they are determined. Annulments are determinations that the marriage never existed to begin with due to the conditions for a marriage to be valid weren’t met. Christian Marriage is forever til death. Christian divorce doesn’t exist.

10. The RCC organizations believes that leaving the church will result in eternal damnation.
True or no?

If one knows and believes that the Catholic Church is the Church established by Christ and willingly leaves, he is putting himself in grave peril.

 

[ESMDHokie77]

Part 2 of 2

11. The Roman Catholic Church base some of their doctrine on pagan traditions. For The Roman Catholic Church the traditions of a goddess, rosary, pope, relics, purgatory, transubstantiation, praying to dead people, and idol worship are all based on paganism.
*I see this argument a lot, the one that tries to make Catholicism or aspects of the Church seem apologetic to Paganism. The idea that we have Saint we pray to, and other images, or statues in Churches. I’m no expert on paganism, but I also recognize that other traditions use beads (Hinduism for example does), however does that make a substantive correlation to paganism? I’m not convinced. I do have some doubts about praying to statues, something I have observed some of the older ladies in my generation do, but the explanation I remember getting from my priest in my Catechism days was that those statues are merely symbolic to praying to God not that we are worshiping them exclusively, as like the story of the Golden Calf. Insights here?
I also don’t remember being taught to pray to dead people, but for them. Any other insights, please share. *

So much reason with this fellow to facepalm. Chances are whatever you say about him being wrong won’t get through. Better just to pray for him.

14. The Roman Catholic Church has added the Apocrypha to support false doctrine.
What is the apocrypha? I looked the term up and it is said to mean this: "The term apocrypha is used with various meanings, including “hidden”, “esoteric”, “spurious”, “of questionable authenticity”, ancient Chinese “revealed texts and objects” and “Christian texts that are not canonical”. So what parts of the Catholic doctrine are considered apocrypha then?

He is referring to the deuterocanon, 7 books of the old testament. Martin Luther, Protestant #1, removed them from the bible because they supported doctrines he didn’t want to believe in. The Deuterocanon was always in the Bible.

15. The Roman Catholic Church priest system (including Popes) has a history of sexual abuse of women and children.
Unfortunately there are some isolated incidences of this, which are a shame. I do not know to what degree it happens, but I do know that one of the local priests, when I was younger, had an affair with a married woman and last the community heard he was shipped off to Brazil or something. I don’t know what the official stance is on this.

Guess what, one of our first Bishops betrayed Jesus, his name was Judas Iscariot. The Church has sinners, always has, always will.

16. The Catholic Church believes in using FORCE to spread their version of the one true god to the unbelievers.
Since when? I mean, the so called “Crusades” are all but over. When was the last time Catholicism was spread by force?

The CC doesn’t believe in that. The Crusades started out as defensive wars against aggression. Many Christian Pilgrims were killed over centuries before those wars.

17. Both religions believe in a union with the state or of using the police powers of the state to compel obedience to their tenets.
Uhm, what? I think this one was just trolling.

trolling, yes.

18 The RCC has a “holy” shrine in which the believers are taught to look to as their headquarters e.g. The Vatican.
The Vatican is obviously the HQ, but how is this argument relevant against Catholicism?

Every entity has an HQ, he’s trolling.

You came to the right place, welcome to CAF. Glad to hear you came back to the Church built by Jesus Christ. I just wanted to briefly answer this drivel from that fundy, but others, I’m sure will also chip in to these explanations. Catholic.com has many articles, tracts, and audio files about these subjects.

Peace,
Phil

 

[DexUK]

Part 1 of 2

I want to preface this by stating that I am a born Catholic, albeit not a very good practicing one. On another forum that I frequently visit, in the religious sections I notice a constant them of bashing Catholics sometimes from the very extreme to the not so extreme. A common theme is that in the early days of the Church common pagan holidays were incorporated into the Church, as well as beliefs and practices, to make the faith appeal to a wider mass of people. I don’t know what to say to this because I am not well versed in history as some of these people seem to be.

Recently though, these arguments were made and I just think the majority of them are wrong, but being not well versed in history I’m asking for some help here. I’ll post the argument in bold and my thoughts in italics and encourage any real and relevant information from more educated Catholics amongst us.

1. Both The Roman Catholic Church and Islam believe that only they are the one true church/religion.
this one seems redundant because I’m sure all religions think they’re the one true religion, but I left it in here because in recent years I believe the Catholic Church is trying to reach out to other fragmented Christian faiths for more unity, correct?

The Catholic Church would naturally like there to be unity, of course, provided its a Catholic unity, since it holds that Catholicism teaches nothing that impedes a soul’s journey to God and that you won’t go wrong if you follow what the Church teaches

2. The Roman Catholic Church and the Islam require mandatory fasting.
I don’t remember mandatory fasting, since when? Maybe I’ve fallen away too far, but correct me if I am wrong - there is no mandatory fasting in Catholicism right?

There IS fasting - on Ash Wednesday and Good Friday, although not to the extremes of Islam - i.e. Ramadan - and abstinence as well on those days plus, at the discretion of your local bishops, typically Fridays throughout the year.

3. The Roman Catholic Church worships, prays to and gives titles of God to Mary. Islam highly esteems Mary and she is mentioned 34 times in the Qu’ran.
I always thought that referring to Mary as Mother of God was more relevant to proclaiming that Jesus IS God, rather than Mary as being God. Am I correct here?

The Church does NOT give the title of God to Mary. She is the Mother of God, in that Christ was fully human and fully divine at the same time, but Mary herself, other than being free from original sin, was entirely human.

4. The Roman Catholic Church and Islam base their salvation on a complicated system of works and deny salvation by faith alone. There is no assurance of salvation in either religion.
When my grandfather was dying and receiving his last rite, I distinctly remember the priest asking him if he accepts Jesus as his savior and his death on the cross as atonement for his sins. I believe this is the very first premise of Catholicism, is it not? Am I wrong here? Catholicism is more about balancing faith WITH works, ie; being a good Catholic and Christian by trying to emulate the positives that Jesus displayed, rather than a system of works. Please help me out here.

Yes, Catholicism holds that our acts are important as well as our faith. Protestant denominations believe differently: briefly - that acceptance of God is enough, even if you’re a horrible sinner. Catholicism requires you to do your best not to sin and to act with love towards God and your fellow man as best you can throughout your life

5. Both cults deny the Biblical view of the Atonement. The Roman Catholic Church doctrine dictates that one must go to Purgatory to have his sins purged, Jesus just paved the way. The Muslims believe their works will save them but will not know until Judgment Day. This is because there is no atonement for sin, and God’s grace does not exist.
*I think this is false about Catholicism. Keep in mind the author of the article here is a funamentalist Christian so he views both Islam and Catholicism as “cults”, he actually even went so far in another article as stating that Catholicism created Islam, something that was too far reaching for me to even finish reading. On the topic of this particular argument, my response would be the same as the one above, because I cannot find anywhere in my teachings the Catholic Church specifically denying the view that Jesus died for our sins and therefore atoned for them. As above, I believe this is the first thing we are taught in Catholicism. *

**6. The Roman Catholic Church claims visions and apparitions in an effort to add false doctrine. **
I don’t know what to say to this. He doesn’t mention what he believes to be false doctrines, so no clue on this one.

This isn’t true - we are free to accept or reject the claims of visions, etc, and there are, indeed, times when the Church will specifically deny the authenticity of apparitions, etc, i.e. Mejugorje. They certainly don’t add to doctrine - i.e. the Deposit of Faith, although the Church may approve of certain apparitions - i.e. at Lourdes - in that there is nothing claimed about them that would harm the faith of any person

7. The Roman Catholic Church uses a rosary for their prayers, Islam uses prayer beads. The rosary/prayer beads are concepts taken from paganism.
Huh?

They are just helpful devices to aid our memory. We are free to use them or not, as we see fit. Obviously they can be manufactured with religious symbols and be blessed and become, therefore, sacramentals, but that’s another matter. Whether there are similar ‘tools’ in paganism of ages past, I have no idea

 

[DexUK]

**8. The Pope is the vicar or substitute of Christ for the Roman Catholic Church. **
*Is the Pope really meant to be a substitute for Christ, or someone who has, through long hours of study and prayer, believed to be one of the closest representatives of God on Earth or closer spiritually to God than the rest of us who haven’t dedicated our entire lives to this pursuit? *

No, he is not a substitute for Christ, but he is the figurehead for the Church and, like any priest, acts in the person of Christ during the consecration at Mass. He is not necessarily any close to God than anyone else (there have been some pretty hair raising popes in history, after all) but Catholic doctrine does hold that the Holy Spirit would prevent the Pope from promulgating a heresy - i.e. the doctrine of Papal Infallibility when he speaks of matters of dogma and faith in his specific capacity as Pope

**9. The Roman Catholic Church has their own divorce system. The Roman Catholic Church grant anullments **
Under what circumstances are annullments allowable? I’m under the impression that they are quite hard to obtain unless a spouse cheats? What are the other conditions?

Cheating is not a default justification for annullment. Annullments are granted if the marriage was defective in the first place - i.e. one party did not have the capacity to consent to marriage or had no intention to live by the vows he or she took and knew it when they took them. Just because a man or woman commits adultery after marriage does not mean they did not commit to the marriage properly at the time of the wedding. What matters in this case is reconciliation - both with God and the spouse, and absolution

10. The RCC organizations believes that leaving the church will result in eternal damnation.
True or no?

Logically it would depend on the reasons for the leaving - i.e. whether or not it was a wilful denial of God in the full knowledge of that being a mortal sin. External influences could be at play. Bear also in mind that there are many Catholic Churches, not just the Roman/Latin one that are all ‘in communion’ and while it might not be normal to ‘leave’ to go to another one, it is possible

 

[PennyinCanada]

About the ladies who kneel down and look at a statue.
If my husband was away in Iraq, I don’t think he would mind if I took his photo, said, “Good night dear, I miss you” and gave the photo a kiss. I think he would find it quite endearing. I can tell the difference between my husband and his photo, and to suggest otherwise is somewhat silly. When a lady kneels down in front of a statue, she knows it’s a statue. Looking at a statue is a way for people to focus their thoughts and get rid of the distractions of the day.

If I pray before a statue of St. Anthony, it’s not praying to ‘dead people’, but to the living. He’s alive, just in another place. Hopefully at the end of my life, I can join him and all the others who have won the race.

 

[po18guy]

This Catholic/Islam comparison is only the latest spawn from the evil one, who seeks only to deceive and divide. It is put forth by the ignorant or the malevolent. In either case, it is not healthful to associate with them, or to rely on them for information.

Rather, get a copy of Catholicism for Dummies and learn the truth. You will find it refreshing. I learn from it each time I open my copy.

 

[bmullins]

I think the answer to all of these is : Catholicism came long before Islam had a book. If anyone copied anyone, they copied us.

 

[Swiss_Guy]

1. Of course. If you don’t believe you are a part of the true religion, why practice it?
2. I think since Vatican II there is no mandatory fasting except during fridays in Lent. (I’m not sure though; don’t quote me on it.) But remember Christ’s words about fasting when the bridegroom is there, etc.
3. By saying Mary is the Mother of God, it means she is the Mother of God (mother of Jesus), not that she is God. It means what it says.
4. It’s very hard to understand if you come from a place that emphasizes faith alone, but basically (ordinarily) in baptism the Holy Spirit gives sanctifying grace to our hearts, which in turn gives us faith hope and love, and the Holy Trinity comes into our hearts as well, giving us salvation. This is maintained by “keeping in step with the Spirit” (i.e Sacraments, good works/love, etc.).
5. Christ died for our sins (the biblical way). Purgatory removes only temporal punishment from those sins that are forgiven for the saints. Everyone who goes to purgatory goes to heaven as well.
6. He is probably referring to Fatima, which supports the Sacrifice of the Mass, which he will most likely reject.
7. The idea of praying the rosary comes from peasants and monks. So, I, like you, am like, “huh?”
8. He is the vicar of Christ, but the successor of St. Peter. Christ chose St. Peter to be the leader of the apostles.
9. Because “what God has joined together, let man not separate.”
10. Not necessarily, but it depends on what you mean. Everyone one who is saved is a member of the Church (when they die at least), but not everyone who is saved was a member of the Church (they could be a pagan or whatever for their whole lives but truly are searching for the Truth). These people are saved in spite of their religion, not because of it. All who are saved are saved through (or in) the Church, not outside of it.

 

[Swiss_Guy]

Part 2 response:

1. He made the claims, now let him back them up with some rock hard evidence, since they are big claims. he shows a lack of knowledge about the Church. Since I don’t have time to talk about all of the claims, I’ll just refute one: Catholics don’t pray to dead people. They (and I, a Catholic at heart) believe that the saints in heaven are alive. The Bible shows that people in heaven are alive as well, so ask him to prove how people in heaven are dead.
2. Um, there is as much in those books that supports Catholic doctrine as there is in Proverbs. Meaning they don’t really do much to influence it. they are a part of the canon of the Bible, and have been since the Council of Trent, the Synod of Rome, and when the Greek Septuagint was the Bible most in use. These books have always been in the Bible. It was the Protestants (I don’t think the Reformers) who took the books out of the Bible.
3. Only recently. and there was a Protestant who did a study that showed Catholic priests were less likely to commit acts of indecency than leaders of other religions (including Protestantism). BTW, Evangelicals are more likely to divorce than Catholics. It’s a fact.
4. That’s against Catholic teaching, and always has been. The Crusades were about freeing the Holy Land so Christians could go there, not to convert by force.
5. See above. It’s against Church teaching, and always has been.
6. What? I don’t get it.

Hope these help. And if you don’t have the Catechism of the Catholic Church, buy one! You don’t know how lucky you are to have Catholic roots. Learn about the Church and its history. And welcome to CAF.

 

[Petergee]

1. Both The Roman Catholic Church and Islam believe that only they are the one true church/religion.

2. The Roman Catholic Church and the Islam require mandatory fasting.

**3. The Roman Catholic Church worships, prays to and gives titles of God to Mary.

4. The Roman Catholic Church and Islam base their salvation on a complicated system of works and deny salvation by faith alone. There is no assurance of salvation in either religion.**

**8. The Pope is the vicar or substitute of Christ for the Roman Catholic Church. **
*Is the Pope really meant to be a substitute for Christ, or someone who has, through long hours of study and prayer, believed to be one of the closest representatives of God on Earth or closer spiritually to God than the rest of us who haven’t dedicated our entire lives to this pursuit? *

These arguments are in fact very good arguments FOR the truth of Catholicism.

Why on earth would anyone choose to join, or stay in, a religion which didn’t even CLAIM to teach the truth (and that therefore as a logicval consequence every other religion is false insofar as it contradicts what one’s own religion teaches). The only reasons I can think of aren’t very flattering.

Jesus strongly emphasised the importance of fasting. It follows that any religion which discourages, or even prohibits, fasting must not be the Church founded by Jesus.

The Catholic Church gives the same honour to Mary that God gives her as He states in the Bible. Any religion which fails to do that is obviously not following God and His Bible to that extent.

Nowhere in the Bible does God say that any man can be saved by faith alone, or that any man can have an assurance of salvation. In fact God’s Bible repeatedly tell’s us this is NOT teh case. Anyone who claims such things (such as Luther when he wrote and inserted this claim into his edition of the Bible - though modern Lutherans have now removed it) is abviously not in accord with God and His Bible.

And finally yes best of all, we have the pope who is the Vicar of Christ as Head of His Church on Earth. Not because of his study, prayer and dedication (some popes did little of any of these) but because Christ appointed St Peter and his successors to rule His Church on earth until He returns. So we can definitively KNOW the truth and don’t have to endure endless and never-resolved debates about doctrine and “what does this verse in the Bible really mean?” etc.etc which plague all man-made religions.

 

[TeenageConvert]

1. Well yeah, what’s the problem with that?
2. You have to fast on Ash Wednesday and Good Friday and you can’t eat meat on Fridays during Lent, I don’t see how this is an argument against either religion though…
3. No. That’s just wrong. We recognize the Virgin Mary as what she is, the mother of God incarnate. If Jesus is God, and Mary is his mother, what would Mary be the mother of? Haha
4. No…we are saved by faith and the grace of God, but if you want to receive God’s grace you’re going to have to keep his commandments
5. One must “go to purgatory” if you failed to become perfect and sanctified on earth(which most of us do, but say someone dies after last rites, or shortly after Baptism,or managed to become holy on earth. The bible says that nothing unperfect can enter heaven. There is no sin in heaven. If you sin until the day you die, but truly do love God and you’re sorry for your sins, you’ll go to heaven, protestants would agree with this, but wouldn’t there have to be some time of sanctification between earth and heaven if you have to be perfect to go to heaven? That’s why we have purgatory.
6. Nope. No Catholic is required to believe in the apparitions, they aren’t doctrine
7. I don’t know if that’s true but either way it doesn’t matter. We’re not saying pagan prayers.
   8.the Pope is our Shepard. The successor of Saint Peter.
   He is the visible head of the Church, like the father is the visible head of a household, God is the real head of both though.
8. Annulment and divorce are not the same. An annulment says there was never a valid marriage. A divorce says the marriage is no more. Jesus Christ himself said that when a man remarries after a divorce he commits adultery.
9. If you reject what you know to be the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church established by Jesus Christ and never, yes you will go to Hell. You’re rejecting God’s truth and his gift of the Sacraments and salvation. Of course we can’t know if everyone who leaves the Church is doing it fully willingly, or if they truly understood or ever even believed.
10. There is no goddess in Catholicism. “Holy Mary mother of God pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death amen.” Goddesses do not pray to a higher power. The rosary is not pagan. The pope is not pagan. Relics, purgatory, and transubstanation, are not pagan, they are 100% Christian. The saints are not “dead people”. They are alive in Christ.
11. The 7 deuterocanical(sp?) Books were always apart of the bible. The protestants removed them because they proved Catholic beliefs.
12. He’ll be surprised to know that this happens far more often in protestant churches than Catholic.
13. Bs. The Church teaches that everyone should have freedom of religion.
14. Smh, no
15. And the answer is, it’s not an argument against Catholicism

 

[bmullins]

This Catholic/Islam comparison is only the latest spawn from the evil one, who seeks only to deceive and divide. It is put forth by the ignorant or the malevolent. In either case, it is not healthful to associate with them, or to rely on them for information.

Rather, get a copy of Catholicism for Dummies and learn the truth. You will find it refreshing. I learn from it each time I open my copy.

Out of all the books I’ve had a chance to peruse, I find that particular book to have one of the best descriptions of what Papal infallibility really means.

 

[po18guy]

Out of all the books I’ve had a chance to peruse, I find that particular book to have one of the best descriptions of what Papal infallibility really means.

Amen. The Priest/Authors have two PhDs and a ThD between them. In fact, since it carries the Imprimatur and the Nihil Obstat, it may be used as a catechism. Every RCIA program should provide it, IMO. All Christians should have a copy. If they did, and knew the truth about the Church, there would be far less division in the Body of Christ.

 

[zz912]

Seems the person who gave you this info is trying to tie the Catholic Church with Islam, which is silly. Islam was created 6 centuries after Christianity by one person who used some parts of Christianity for his new religion.

As to the particular points:
1. Both The Roman Catholic Church and Islam believe that only they are the one true church/religion.
this one seems redundant because I’m sure all religions think they’re the one true religion, but I left it in here because in recent years I believe the Catholic Church is trying to reach out to other fragmented Christian faiths for more unity, correct?

1. Yep. Jesus built ONE Church. Not thousands on every street corner with competing and mutually exclusive beliefs. We long for other Christians to come back to the Church that Jesus built.

2. The Roman Catholic Church and the Islam require mandatory fasting.
I don’t remember mandatory fasting, since when? Maybe I’ve fallen away too far, but correct me if I am wrong - there is no mandatory fasting in Catholicism right?
2. This person needs to read his Bible more. Jesus clearly taught that WHEN we fast, we are to comb our hair, and wash our face, so that no one knows we are fasting. Notice He said WHEN, we fast, not IF. The better question to this person is to ask why he doesn’t follow the commands of Jesus?

3. The Roman Catholic Church worships, prays to and gives titles of God to Mary. Islam highly esteems Mary and she is mentioned 34 times in the Qu’ran.
I always thought that referring to Mary as Mother of God was more relevant to proclaiming that Jesus IS God, rather than Mary as being God. Am I correct here?
3. At this point you should never rely on this person for information ever again. As you yourself realized, this person is simply factually wrong. It really is meaningless what Islam says about Mary. Any references there were copied from Christianity by Muhammed.

4. The Roman Catholic Church and Islam base their salvation on a complicated system of works and deny salvation by faith alone. There is no assurance of salvation in either religion.
4. This person needs to read their Bible some more. It is faith AND works. As St. James says, faith without works is dead. So initial salvation is by grace alone, as a completely free gift from God, but we must continue to walk with Him, and do the works He has set before us.

5. Both cults deny the Biblical view of the Atonement. The Roman Catholic Church doctrine dictates that one must go to Purgatory to have his sins purged, Jesus just paved the way. The Muslims believe their works will save them but will not know until Judgment Day. This is because there is no atonement for sin, and God’s grace does not exist.
*I think this is false about Catholicism. . *
5. You are right about this. This fellow is completely ignorant of true Catholic teaching. Purgatory burns away our inclination to sin, it purifies us of our longing for anything other than God. Purgatory is NOT a second chance. Only those saved will make it to Heaven, or temporarily first to Purgatory then to Heaven. Nothing impure shall enter Heaven. This person must believe that he is completely pure right now.

**6. The Roman Catholic Church claims visions and apparitions in an effort to add false doctrine. **
I don’t know what to say to this. He doesn’t mention what he believes to be false doctrines, so no clue on this one.
6. Ask him for specifics of which doctrines he claims have been added. You’ll get nothing but silence.

7. The Roman Catholic Church uses a rosary for their prayers, Islam uses prayer beads. The rosary/prayer beads are concepts taken from paganism.
Huh?
7. Again, just trying to tie Catholicism with Islam and Paganism. Weak and particularly trivial. Rosaries simply help a person focus their prayer and help to organize it. It is not required, not mandatory to even pray the Rosary. And not required to used Rosary beads when you pray the Rosary.

**8. The Pope is the vicar or substitute of Christ for the Roman Catholic Church. **
8. The Pope is the Vicar. He is the representative, and head of Christ’s Church. Again this person needs to read their Bible more. Jesus told Peter to feed and tend His sheep. Did that make Peter into Jesus? Nope. It made Peter the Vicar for Christ, who has the keys to the kingdom.

**9. The Roman Catholic Church has their own divorce system. The Roman Catholic Church grant anullments **
Under what circumstances are annullments allowable? I’m under the impression that they are quite hard to obtain unless a spouse cheats? What are the other conditions?
Annulments are a declaration that a married was “null”, or void. That it never existed. It is not a divorce. Now there may be some in the Church who have used it too frequently or used it in an improper manner, but that doesn’t invalidate the teaching on annulments.

10. The RCC organizations believes that leaving the church will result in eternal damnation.
True or no?
Depends on why they left and the culpability they have. If they know the Church is His Body, and are actively rejecting Him with complete free will and full knowledge, they are certainly placing their souls in jeopardy. If they leave out of ignorance or some other mitigating reason, they may not be guilty of a mortal sin. Jesus will determine that. The Church doesn’t declare any particular person as being in hell.

 

[zz912]

11. The Roman Catholic Church base some of their doctrine on pagan traditions. For The Roman Catholic Church the traditions of a goddess, rosary, pope, relics, purgatory, transubstantiation, praying to dead people, and idol worship are all based on paganism.
*I see this argument a lot, the one that tries to make Catholicism or aspects of the Church seem apologetic to Paganism. The idea that we have Saint we pray to, and other images, or statues in Churches. I’m no expert on paganism, but I also recognize that other traditions use beads (Hinduism for example does), however does that make a substantive correlation to paganism? I’m not convinced. I do have some doubts about praying to statues, something I have observed some of the older ladies in my generation do, but the explanation I remember getting from my priest in my Catechism days was that those statues are merely symbolic to praying to God not that we are worshiping them exclusively, as like the story of the Golden Calf. Insights here?
I also don’t remember being taught to pray to dead people, but for them. Any other insights, please share. *
11. He’s just flinging poop on the wall to see what sticks. There is no goddess in Catholicism, and Mary is not worshiped. Rosary is just a structured prayer. Pope means father in latin. As the NT writers many times referred to themselves as fathers in the faith, I don’t see the issue. Relics, like the bones of Elisha which brought a person back to life. They certainly aren’t unbiblical. Purgatory is biblical, he needs to read his Bible some more. Transubstantiation, well he needs to read and re-read John chapter 6. Praying to dead people, well they aren’t dead. They are alive in Christ. He should re-read Revelation, where the saints are bringing our prayers to God. And there is no idol worship.

14. The Roman Catholic Church has added the Apocrypha to support false doctrine.
What is the apocrypha? I looked the term up and it is said to mean this: "The term apocrypha is used with various meanings, including “hidden”, “esoteric”, “spurious”, “of questionable authenticity”, ancient Chinese “revealed texts and objects” and “Christian texts that are not canonical”. So what parts of the Catholic doctrine are considered apocrypha then?
14. He’s referring to the Deuterocanonicals, which are in the OT. They have always been part of the Bible since the Bible was determined in the late 300’s. You should ask him by what authority did Martin Luther take out books from the Bible?

15. The Roman Catholic Church priest system (including Popes) has a history of sexual abuse of women and children.
Unfortunately there are some isolated incidences of this, which are a shame. I do not know to what degree it happens, but I do know that one of the local priests, when I was younger, had an affair with a married woman and last the community heard he was shipped off to Brazil or something. I don’t know what the official stance is on this.
15. The Protestant clergy has a history of sexual abuse of women and children. The public school system has a history of sexual abuse of women and children. In fact, these are much worse than the Catholic abuse issues. So what? Does that invalidate the teachings of the Church because there are sinners in the Church? Reminds me of an old joke: The Catholic Church is full of sinners! Absolutely not! We’ll slide over in the pew to make room for you too!

16. The Catholic Church believes in using FORCE to spread their version of the one true god to the unbelievers.
Since when? I mean, the so called “Crusades” are all but over. When was the last time Catholicism was spread by force?
The Church specifically teaches the opposite. The Catechism is pretty clear about this. Many people are wildly ignorant of the Crusades, which were a defensive war waged against Islamic invasion into the Holy Lands. Protestant historians in the past have distorted or completely fabricated the history of the Crusades to use as a weapon to criticize the Church.

17. Both religions believe in a union with the state or of using the police powers of the state to compel obedience to their tenets.
Uhm, what? I think this one was just trolling.
17. Yep. Trolling. Ask for something to back up this outlandish claim.

18 The RCC has a “holy” shrine in which the believers are taught to look to as their headquarters e.g. The Vatican.
The Vatican is obviously the HQ, but how is this argument relevant against Catholicism?
It’s not relevant against Catholicism.

 

[TarlsQtr]

A quick point. Many of these arguments (the ones comparing Catholicism with Islam or paganism) can all be demolished with a single argument.

He is stating that the RCC is not legitimate because it resembles Islam in some respects. OK, putting aside the ridiculous nature of this claim (protestants and muslims both kneel at prayer, yet your friend probably sees no problem with it), from a logical standpoint, if you can find one biblically accepted practice that both the RCC and Islam does, then it is proven that NO such comparisons are relevant.

Point him to Mark 2:19-20- *And Jesus saith to them: Can the children of the marriage fast, as long as the bridegroom is with them? As long as they have the bridegroom with them, they cannot fast. [Mark 2:19] [Latin] [20] But the days will come when the bridegroom shall be taken away from them; and then they shall fast in those days. *

Jesus says that once He is gone, we are to fast. This is a “red letter” commandment from Jesus Himself. There is no such commandment to stop fasting if another religion takes up the same practice. If the Islam-RCC comparison does not work in ALL cases, it cannot logically be used in ANY.

To his paganism questions, I would make a couple of quick points. Does he ever pray on his knees? So did the pagans. Does he (or people in his church) wear a wedding ring? This is a pagan practice that was sanctified by the Christian Church. Again, if adopting these pagan practices are not inherently wrong, then he cannot claim that others are.

 

[Barbkw]

Yusip,

Many things have helped me come to a greater understanding of our faith. I’ll just state them in the hope that you can also find them at your parish.

1. Classes in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. At our parish we have a condensed course teaching from the Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. At another local parish, they go through the Catechism chapter by chapter.
2. Watch the “Journey Home” program on EWTN. Marcus interviews pastors and laypeople who have converted from various denominations. Marcus is also a convert.
3. Watch Scott Hahn & Mike Aquilina programs on EWTN. Dr. Hahn’s programs often discuss Catholicism in light of his previous concerns as a protestant.
4. Read through Patrick Madrid’s books, “Where is that in the Bible”

amazon.com/Where-That-Bible-Patrick-Madrid/dp/0879736933

 

[Barbkw]

The sad thing is that many protestant denominations teach this one sided Reformation anti-Catholicism to their children and even regularly preach it.

I was watching 3ABN television last week. They had an hour long bash fest on Catholicism.