Ariz. hospital loses Catholic status over surgery

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(A x A) + (B x B)= (C x C) also equals do no harm?
If I withhold treatment that can be licitly administered that is as harmful to life (the mother’s life is of no less value than the baby’s) as performing an illicit treatment (neither is the baby’s less valuable). Therefore, I need to understand in fine detail exactly what the problem is and what the available licit treatments are. The approach to ethical dilemmas has to be comprehensive, it has to be clear to all involved and it has to be subject to change with changing knowledge and technology.
 
Thank you for your outright dismissal of my fear. Gee, here I thought I was scared and now I know that if I’m in God’s company I have no need to fear. 😃 I don’t even have to fear that the chronic pain I’m in will worsen, as it does sometimes. 😃 Wow, I feel better already.😃 In fact, all of my fear has disappeared! 😃 I’m jumping with joy - OW!! :crutches: I forgot that I can’t jump with joy. In fact, I can’t jump at all. Or run. Or walk without people asking me what is wrong with my back. :rolleyes:

Your confusion about my situation is obvious. Please don’t patronize me. You haven’t walked one step in my moccasins. I don’t mean to be uncivil but I am very insulted by what you’ve written above. I have reason to fear. Your inability to see that shows insensitivity and maybe callousness.

It also helps to know why a post was written.
It was not my intention to offend you - quite the contrary: it was to encourage you and to demonstrate conclusively that this case is not applicable to your concerns.

If I have failed in this, or if you do not wish to receive what I offer with all sincerity, then my apologies.
 
It was not my intention to offend you - quite the contrary: it was to encourage you and to demonstrate conclusively that this case is not applicable to your concerns.

If I have failed in this, or if you do not wish to receive what I offer with all sincerity, then my apologies.
I don’t think you understand fear. Do you honestly think the Jews and Christians being marched to the gas chambers in Germany didn’t fear? Fear is an emotion which indicates that something is wrong. If a person fears, she knows that she must take action in order to alleviate the fear - what would be called (in undergraduate Psychology classes) “fight or flight.” Without the emotion of fear an impala would just continue grazing contentedly even after seeing the lion approaching her.

Fear is not a “negative” emotion. It’s a message, many times involving one or more senses. My fear is realistic and it is one of the reasons I am having difficulty in communicating in this thread and why I sometimes come off as seeming angry. In that respect this case is applicable to my concerns.

And if the ACLU succeeds in their proposed lawsuit to force Catholic hospitals to provide direct abortions, Catholic hospitals are going to close their doors and they should. The ACLU announcement was issued while this case was being discussed. The two are related and that is not just my impression.

You are offering something you do not have. That’s why it’s condescending.

Of course I accept your apology and you were forgiven already, as my faith demands. I just want to clarify why I felt insulted. I felt like you were belittling me and not taking my fear seriously.

It’s OK. I think everything is fine between us. I know you were trying to help and that’s what is most important and I thank you for your efforts.
 
All I was trying to say is that this case is not necessarily indicative of any, new disturbing trend - such dilemmas and even more difficult ones - have always dogged the care of pregnancy and delivery. So to extrapolate from this incident and grow fearful for one’s life specifically because of it, is unwarranted I believe.
In the case of this particular hospital I think that we’ve all agreed that the ground work was laid before this. And I didn’t mean by my previous post to Little Soldier that she should have to be scared. But it is indicative of a culture of death in that this is most likely not an isolated case, not just this one abortion but Catholic hospitals subtley going against Catholic teaching until they’re “found out”. Catholic hospitals are kind of the last “hold out” of institutions that will, without question, respect life. It is scary when you see it becoming “okay”, when you see the hospital being portrayed as the victim and Bishop as the bad guy in the news. To those who aren’t knowledgeable in their faith, to those who are unfamiliar with Catholicism althogether, and to those who are already anti-Catholic, the actions of the hospital are dangerous to individual’s eternal lives.
I have more than once affirmed (here or on other threads) that the Bishop had both the authority and the duty to rule on morality of treatments for disease affecting pregnancy and that he also has the responsibility to understand the disease process for which he is declaring treatment moral or immoral.
But you seem to be questioning his ability, or willingness, to understand. Or saying that there is no way a Bishop can fully understand, which would then translate to saying that he could not make the decision. That’s what I’m not getting from you. Although I get it more in this post. See below.
It’s not a question of believing the Bishop if I believe the Church. I have read the USCCB document and even it stops short of directly affirming the Bishop’s declaration. Why?
Because in the hierarchy of the Church and the confines of Canon Law, they simply don’t need to. His word is taken as the final word according to Church teaching and it speaks for itself, it doesn’t need to be “authorized” by anyone else. The “authorization” came with his appointment of bishop. The USCCB is not his “superior”. He doesn’t report to them, and they don’t control his actions. They could have said absolutely nothing, and it means nothing. Just as when Pope Benedict didn’t swoop down and condemn Notre Dame for inviting Obama to speak, like many people called for, that’s not how it works. The Bishop there was the voice of the Pope, the voice of the Magisterium.
Wouldn’t that clarify everything for everybody regarding this specific case?
No, not at all. Since in this case it is the Bishop who holds the apostolic authority in that diocese and the USCCB understands that. It is our exposure to our media saturated culture and government here in the US that expects something from anyone all the way up to the Pope to verify the Bishop. But the reality is that the “Pope” has already spoken.
Were the Bishops of days gone by who declared ectopic treatment illicit before rupture somehow symptomatic of error in the Church? I don’t believe so - they made judgments based on what was understood of disease process at the time. The knowledge of the disease process changed, the moral declarations on whether and when treatment is allowed also changed. That is a historical fact.
This is where I totally agree with you and I think is the best description of what you’ve been trying to say all along. But the problem is that it is medical science that is subject to Catholic teaching all along. As technology advances and more knowledge and procedures come about that are able to treat pathologies while guaranteeing, without a doubt in Church teaching, that the mother and child will both be equally respected, of course things would change. But sometimes you’re making it sound like the more “advanced” science is coming around and “proving them wrong”.

I would bet that many doctors find Catholic ethics just as confusing, if not moreso, than any medical knowledge and if they understood it better, might make different decisions as well. The problem in these cases with the hospitals is that many many times they’re not even trying and considering their medical knowledge to make them more authoritative than revealed truth as revealed through the Church.
The study of placental pathology probably did not even exist at the time some of these theological principles were being developed. Can we now ignore that knowledge because it doesn’t fit our principles?
The Church’s “principles” do not, and never, change. That understanding develops is evident, and good. Nothing is ignored, but if you understand something thoroughly through a medical standpoint that doesn’t mean you are necessarily qualified to make a moral decision in a morally confusing case.
If God in His mercy and concern for all life, were to provide us progressively more knowledge on situations that presently confound us, why should we fear or resist that?
We shouldn’t. But why are you assuming (or you seem to be anyway) that that is what happened here?
 
If I withhold treatment that can be licitly administered that is as harmful to life (the mother’s life is of no less value than the baby’s) as performing an illicit treatment (neither is the baby’s less valuable). Therefore, I need to understand in fine detail exactly what the problem is and what the available licit treatments are. The approach to ethical dilemmas has to be comprehensive, it has to be clear to all involved and it has to be subject to change with changing knowledge and technology.
huh? I was just poking fun at the guy who said what ever happened to “Do no harm” clause in the “Pythagorean Theorem.” which he had clearly mistaken for the Hippocratic Oath.
 
huh? I was just poking fun at the guy who said what ever happened to “Do no harm” clause in the “Pythagorean Theorem.” which he had clearly mistaken for the Hippocratic Oath.
I missed that. “Pythagorean Theorem.”

:rotfl:

I wonder how many people read that post, as I did, and read “Hippocratic Oath.”

I needed a laugh. Thank you.

I had to take a graduate course once where we were supposed to learn how to take ideas and present them as mathematical equations; usually they were optical illusions. No student ever understood what the heck we were supposed to do and passing the class was just a matter of luck. I got a B (at the same time I was getting A’s in advanced advanced advanced statistics) and I still don’t understand the point of the class.

Trying to express the Hippocratic Oath as a mathematical equation would have fit in just fine.
 
The influence of Pythagoras has transcended the field of mathematics, and the Hippocratic Oath – with its central commitment to “First do no harm” – has its roots in the oath of the Pythagorean Brotherhood. Biography of Pythagoras
 
The Church’s “principles” do not, and never, change. That understanding develops is evident, and good. Nothing is ignored, but if you understand something thoroughly through a medical standpoint that doesn’t mean you are necessarily qualified to make a moral decision in a morally confusing case.
Our application of those principles surely does change as knowledge evolves. Which is why new applications may need to be considered rather than attempting to force a fit or to discard knowledge that doesn’t fit.
 
Because of comments like: “there was nothing wrong with the pregnancy (read baby/placenta unit)”
So you’re insinuating what by this? That he is purposefully misleading people? Or not “looking into the facts” enough? Or not willing to understand what they did it? It seems after listening to all his comments that he wuold have been overjoyed had the hospital complied in the first place and given him no reason for any of this. And he gave them many, many chances. The canonical reason that he could do what he did was based on grounds of their refusal to acknowledge his authority, and refused to commit to do so in the future.

The fact is that you know nothing about the case. You know what you’ve read in the news. You know what you’ve read as officially stated by the bishop and you know what you’ve read from a theologian hired by CHW to review their case, who reported on this in an extremely unorthodox “Catholic” publication. So you’ve got media reports, hospital statements, and two theologians, one who happens to hold far more weight than the other and also has apostolic authority given by the Church.

You seem to be coming from a place of “the bishop’s got something to prove” and “the hospital is correct until proven wrong”. Do you see what I mean? Considering St. Joseph’s track record alone, it seems it should be the other way around.
 
Our application of those principles surely does change as knowledge evolves.
Fine, the applications, but not the principles themselves. Those are two very different things. And neither you, me, or any doctor is fit to either do that or drive the process ourselves.
Which is why new applications may need to be considered rather than attempting to force a fit or to discard knowledge that doesn’t fit.
Again, you’re first of all assuming that this is what happened based on very little knowledge and also accusing the Bishop himself of taking something so serious as a hospital’s and religous’ Catholic standing so lightly as to “keep a status quo” and not give an inch on “what could be morally considered an abortion.” He’s insinuating, with full knowledge, that the Church is willing to “let” women die in certain circumstances because to do anything otherwise would be intrinsically evil. Knowing full well the entire secular world is going to jump down his throat and villify him. He could’ve just as easily claimed that it did fall under double effect, and in all actuality he most likely wanted it to. Wouldn’t you, as Bishop? Wouldn’t you hope that a hospital under your diocese and people who are your spiritual responsibility would be in the right? He has said as much in public statements.

You know it’s very possible that CHW and St. Joseph’s hospital could have also misrepresented themselves to a certain extent. To do otherwise, and to comply with the Bishop, would’ve caused serious, serious problems for them, and now they look like saints.
 
This is where I totally agree with you and I think is the best description of what you’ve been trying to say all along. But the problem is that it is medical science that is subject to Catholic teaching all along. As technology advances and more knowledge and procedures come about that are able to treat pathologies while guaranteeing, without a doubt in Church teaching, that the mother and child will both be equally respected, of course things would change. But sometimes you’re making it sound like the more “advanced” science is coming around and “proving them wrong”. [q/uote]

I think a lot more people would be more comfortable with these kind of outcomes if the religious representative (such as the Bishop) had medical knowledge, such as a doctor. Many nuns were nurses…surely they have doctors and scientists available to them with such knowledge to help them make these decisions. Because to say that medical procedures have to conform to Catholic law is useless if they have no knowledge of the medical procedure in question…
bookgirl32;7411586:
I would bet that many doctors find Catholic ethics just as confusing, if not moreso, than any medical knowledge and if they understood it better, might make different decisions as well. The problem in these cases with the hospitals is that many many times they’re not even trying and considering their medical knowledge to make them more authoritative than revealed truth as revealed through the Church.
Of course hospitals are not trying and considering their medical knowledge to make them more authoritative that the Church’s truths…they’re trying to practice medicine. I sincerely doubt that a Catholic medical school puts them through a rigorous “ethics according to the Church” course of something of that nature. So you can bet that secular medical schools aren’t doing it either. Then you have the patients to consider, which as you know, if they aren’t Catholic (or even practicing Catholics) and care nothing about Catholic rules.
The Church’s “principles” do not, and never, change. That understanding develops is evident, and good. Nothing is ignored, but if you understand something thoroughly through a medical standpoint that doesn’t mean you are necessarily qualified to make a moral decision in a morally confusing case.
That’s true, however the opposite is the same: just because you have a thorough understanding of Church law doesn’t mean you can adequately apply them to medical situations, when you have no knowledge of the pathology and treatments available for a specific medical senario either. I’m sure that the Bishop had counsel by people with not only a medical degree but with experience in the field helping him come to his decision, or at least I hope he did.
 
It’s not the following, it’s the interpretation. For example, I have seen the principle of double effect used to both condemn and justify the use of methotrexate in treating ectopic pregnancies. Ultimately, it all seems to hinge on what constitutes a “direct act” and whether the placenta is or is not considered a diseased organ separate from the baby.
I have heard the opposite, methotrexate may not be used as the result is a direct abortion.

Here is one source supporting this. I have seen other sites on which the same morality is upheld.

catholiceducation.org/articles/medical_ethics/me0140.htm

"Of the three commonly performed procedures for addressing ectopic pregnancies, two raise significant moral concerns while the third is morally acceptable.

The first procedure involves a drug called methotrexate, which targets the most rapidly growing cells of the embryo, especially the placenta-like cells which attach the early embryo to the wall of the tube. Some have suggested that methotrexate might preferentially target these placenta-like cells, distinct from the rest of the embryo, so that it could be seen as “indirectly” ending the life of the embryo. Others, however, have noted that these placenta-like cells are in fact a part of the embryo itself (being produced by the embryo, not by the mother), so that the use of methotrexate actually targets a vital organ of the embryo, resulting in his or her death. A significant number of Catholic moralists hold that the use of methotrexate is not morally permissible, because it constitutes a direct attack on the growing child in the tube, and involves a form of direct abortion."

In other words, choose your moralist wisely.
 
It’s not the following, it’s the interpretation. For example, I have seen the principle of double effect used to both condemn and justify the use of methotrexate in treating ectopic pregnancies. Ultimately, it all seems to hinge on what constitutes a “direct act” and whether the placenta is or is not considered a diseased organ separate from the baby.
The hospital’s history of adherence or non-adherence to Catholic principles have been pretty well established it would seem. I’m looking at the broader case of whether all Catholics institutions interpret the rules the same way. The findings of the article I cited suggest not. Some transfer bleeding patients with live fetuses so that they don’t bleed to death - but not all do. The question is, what do these latter hospitals do - how do they apply the rules?

You can see from this CHAUSA article (scroll down to page 4), that the choice of procedure when the baby is still alive but mother’s life is threatened is seemingly left to the individual doctors with the underlying principle being that the death of the fetus must not be directly intended. It (big “if”) the intent is correct then, it is difficult to see how a non-medical person can determine that an abortion was in fact performed in a particular situation, unless certain procedures are always seen as direct actions regardless of intent.

Regarding removal of a baby from the womb (more accurately, from the mother’s body, since it can be attached to other organs), it is a term that I use deliberately because sometimes that is all that is done and a living baby is delivered who cannot survive. There doesn’t necessarily have to be any act done to end its life prior to delivery. Of course, in a procured elective abortion, the intent is to end the baby’s life (before, during or after the procedure).
I hope you don’t think the morality of issues such as this depends on individual Catholic hospital personnel. Such employees are not theologians. It seems that the idea of situational morality has such a strong hold on moral thinking that objective truth is disregarded by many organizations claiming to be catholic.
 
There’s an interesting perspective provided by Anne Hendershott in the “Wall Street Journal” that should be read by all:
online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203731004576046443911321586.html?mod=WSJ_Opinion_LEFTTopOpinion

Some interesting quotes from Professor Hendershott’s editorial:

"But the Phoenix case breaks new ground. In explaining his decision, Rev. Thomas Olmsted, bishop of the Phoenix Diocese, was the first to explicitly point to the role played by Catholic theologians in providing theological cover for “a litany of practices in direct conflict with Catholic teachings.” "

“This case points to the real problem in the church. For too long, the authority of bishops has been limited to issuing mere opinions. This is especially true at Catholic colleges and universities, where bishops have little affect on the culture and curriculum.”

“For faithful Catholics, there is relief that the tie between the theologians, the administrators and the bishops seems finally to have been broken. But there remains a sadness that yet another Catholic institution has been lost.”
 
huh? I was just poking fun at the guy who said what ever happened to “Do no harm” clause in the “Pythagorean Theorem.” which he had clearly mistaken for the Hippocratic Oath.
HEH, HEH, HEH, It was all Greek to me!!!
 
I hope you don’t think the morality of issues such as this depends on individual Catholic hospital personnel. Such employees are not theologians. It seems that the idea of situational morality has such a strong hold on moral thinking that objective truth is disregarded by many organizations claiming to be catholic.
This is my point. The apostolically authoritative Catholic teaching is still correct, even if technology advances to the point where the “applications” of the teaching may change. It’s not “proven wrong” later.
 
There’s an interesting perspective provided by Anne Hendershott in the “Wall Street Journal” that should be read by all:
online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203731004576046443911321586.html?mod=WSJ_Opinion_LEFTTopOpinion

Some interesting quotes from Professor Hendershott’s editorial:

"But the Phoenix case breaks new ground. In explaining his decision, Rev. Thomas Olmsted, bishop of the Phoenix Diocese, was the first to explicitly point to the role played by Catholic theologians in providing theological cover for “a litany of practices in direct conflict with Catholic teachings.” "

“This case points to the real problem in the church. For too long, the authority of bishops has been limited to issuing mere opinions. This is especially true at Catholic colleges and universities, where bishops have little affect on the culture and curriculum.”

“For faithful Catholics, there is relief that the tie between the theologians, the administrators and the bishops seems finally to have been broken. But there remains a sadness that yet another Catholic institution has been lost.”
Just completely edited my post because I read this one wrong, sorry!!!
 
This is a very sad perspective as it diminishes apostolic authority to “mere opinon” and implies that objectively true moral theology and ethics apply only to, I dont’ know, Church on Sundays? When did the Church, for Catholics, stop being the moral compass of the right way to live in all of their lives and not just church on Sunday?
Perhaps you didn’t read the entire article, because my take is that Prof. Hendershott is applauding a Bishop for finally taking a definite stand. The USCCB and many bishops out there have been very reluctant to take a positive and firm stand on many theological issues. They prefer to couch their language in generalities and other levels of vagueness, in order to be “all inclusive” and not offend anyone.

I for one applaud any bishop who is willing to take a stand, although in this particular case, the bishop actually took a very long to get to that point. 👍
 
bookgirl32;7411586:
I think a lot more people would be more comfortable with these kind of outcomes if the religious representative (such as the Bishop) had medical knowledge, such as a doctor. Many nuns were nurses…surely they have doctors and scientists available to them with such knowledge to help them make these decisions. Because to say that medical procedures have to conform to Catholic law is useless if they have no knowledge of the medical procedure in question…
I would feel very uncomfortable if my apostolic leaders had spent all their time in med school and not seminary.
Of course hospitals are not trying and considering their medical knowledge to make them more authoritative that the Church’s truths…they’re trying to practice medicine. I sincerely doubt that a Catholic medical school puts them through a rigorous “ethics according to the Church” course of something of that nature. So you can bet that secular medical schools aren’t doing it either. Then you have the patients to consider, which as you know, if they aren’t Catholic (or even practicing Catholics) and care nothing about Catholic rules.
That’s what the so-called “ethics committee” is supposed to have been for. You seem to be of the opinion that the medical world operates in one sphere and the theological world in the other, and they need to leave eachother to their own “expertise”. Every academic discipline in the world, including all of the sciences, fall under the constraints of natural and divine law. These laws are the final “decision makers”.

I know non-Catholic patients “don’t care”. This doesn’t relieve the Church of performing it’s true roll as defined by God and infallibly revealed through the magisterium.

Do you realize your whole argument, if applied to the United States government, would require all judges to be medical professionals? Tell that to the justices of the supreme court and see what they say.
That’s true, however the opposite is the same: just because you have a thorough understanding of Church law doesn’t mean you can adequately apply them to medical situations when you have no knowledge of the pathology and treatments available for a specific medical senario either. I’m sure that the Bishop had counsel by people with not only a medical degree but with experience in the field helping him come to his decision, or at least I hope he did.
Medical knowledge falls under the rules of Natural and Divine Law. Not the other way around. Again, if what you’re stating were true all judges in medically associated legal cases would have to, at the rate you’re going, be doctors.

The Bishop has an entire diocesan medical board. Or did you miss that when you were listening to his statements or reading the articles quoting these doctors?
 
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