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Armageddon, the Beast, Appearance of Anti-Christ, Gog and Magog, End Times, rapture, Second Coming of Jesus, gathering of the Israel
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ryanoneil
Guest
Please explain how a dead son, not present for generations, who is reincarnated explains the situation any better?
How is David’s throne anymore intact if it doesn’t exist for centuries?
1 Kings 2:1-4 When the time of David’s death drew near, he gave these instructions to his son Solomon: "I am going the way of all mankind. Take courage and be a man. Keep the mandate of the LORD, your God, following his ways and observing his statutes, commands, ordinances, and decrees as they are written in the law of Moses, that you may succeed in whatever you do, wherever you turn, **and the LORD may fulfill the promise he made on my behalf when he said, ‘If your sons so conduct themselves that they remain faithful to me with their whole heart and with their whole soul, you shall always have someone of your line on the throne of Israel.’ **
1 Kings 8:25 Now, therefore, LORD, God of Israel, keep the further promise you made to my father David, your servant, saying, 'You shall always have someone from your line to sit before me on the throne of Israel, provided only that your descendants look to their conduct so that they live in my presence, as you have lived in my presence.'
THE SOLUTION IS: God’s promise to David was established but wouldn’t take effect until his descendant was faithful
2 Samuel 7:12
And when your time comes and, you rest with your ancestors, I will raise up your heir after you, sprung from your loins, and I will make his kingdom firm.
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It is he who shall build a house for my name. And I will make his royal throne firm forever.
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I will be a father to him, and he shall be a son to me. And if he does wrong, I will correct him with the rod of men and with human chastisements;
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but I will not withdraw my favor from him as I withdrew it from your predecessor Saul, whom I removed from my presence.
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Your house and your kingdom shall endure forever before me; your throne shall stand firm forever.’"
So why is David’s kingdom and throne firm forever? Because his heir’s throne and kingdom is firm forever.
God’s promise to David was guaranteed, but it’s implementation was conditional on David’s heir? When Jesus came faithfully, God made his kingdom and throne firm forever. At this point the promise is realized and David’s house and kingdom and throne are forever firm, through Jesus.
There is no need to force some reincarnation senario. God was making a promise for the future.
Peace,
Ryan
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FaithofAbraham
Guest
It’s not reincarnation which is same spirit different body, but resurrection, same spirit same body.
Because David never fails to have a son on the throne, from David to Jesus. It’s not time that matters, but a break in generations. Forever means forever, that it never ends. Which if you say it ended from Babylon to Jesus, it breaks that promise.
1 Kings 9:5 Then I will establish the throne of thy kingdom upon Israel for ever, as I promised to David thy father, saying, There shall not fail thee a man upon the throne of Israel.
There is no condition here for David, the condition was only for Solomon’s line and they failed it. So Jesus was always the one with the real throne, Solomon’s line was just folly.
Which gives us a hint that the drive among Jews, Masons, and even a lot of deluded Christians to establish the Solomon Kingdom, which is one that has no plans for Jesus starting with the creation of the State of Israel, is a big bad mistake.
1 Kings 10:14 Now the weight of gold that came to Solomon in one year was six hundred threescore and six talents of gold,
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ryanoneil
Guest
The Holy Spirit fertilized Mary’s egg and Jesus was CONCEIVED. A dead body wasn’t reborn in Mary’s womb.
A dead body does not sit on a throne over time. That is why succesor are named. Why does Matthew give an extended genealogy of Jesus? Is he just blowing smoke?
You’re focussing on a narrow view of scripture and avoiding 1 Kings 2:1-4 and 1 Kings 8:25. God is making a promise with conditions. Solomon failed, as you mentioned, but the promise remained. God was making a promise to David that was to be fulfilled when his descendent met the conditions.
God did the same thing with Abraham. Did God fulfill that promise immediately? NO
Did God fulfill the promise to David immediately? NO
I just don’t see any evidence that Jesus was first born to David and Bathsheba. You haven’t provided any OT Scripture that confirmes your claims.
I won’t comment on some people’s beliefs, but I will say: When Jesus returns it won’t be to establish a kingdom. That has happened during his first advent. When he comes again it will be at the end of time as the world’s judge.
Peace,
Ryan
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FaithofAbraham
Guest
Fertilized it with what, God’s sperm? It doesn’t say anything like that, so it’s pure conjecture. But it does say Jesus is made from the seed of David. That Mary descends from David is also pure conjecture, the NT says nothing about where she came from.
Is God the God of the living or the dead? That lineage is for Joseph, he’s not related to Jesus.
Solomon had conditional promises and his throne failed. But Jesus said he is a greater than Solomon, as his older brother, and his throne never fails.
2 Samuel 7:13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.
The conditions were only on Solomon because God already knew he would fail. But there are no conditions on David’s throne or his son’s throne, the one who wouldn’t fail. Which would be Jesus.
But they have to be done here because David’s throne was established forever when he was still alive, it couldn’t be toppled for a little while with Babylon. It had to go straight from David to his son.
2 Samuel 7:16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.
Right here, where was the corruption and dishonor when Jesus came from Mary? But it was there with David and Bathsheba.
1 Corinthians 15:42-45 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
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swariffin
Guest
Dear FoA,
Thank you, you begin to stay into your solid ground. That is very good. Now, what would Rome 6:9-10 and Hebrew 10:10 means to you. BTW, if there is a resurrection, there would be death preceding, am I correct? Otherwise, there will be no resurrection without a preceding death. In those verses, it is mentioned that Jesus died for sins ONCE, and in the resurrection death no longer had dominion over Him. So, you are saying that the Jesus’ mission in the first attempt failed, so He must come for the SECOND time. Still, it means that death still had dominion over Jesus during His first death according to you. You are in contradiction with Paul and whoever wrote the letter for the Hebrew. I think you will response that you don’t believe Paul since he is not mentioned in the Quran.
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swariffin
Guest
Dear FoA,
In this posting, I just want to make sure, i.e to avoid me, misunderstanding you. Are you saying that according to you, the Israelite during Jesus’ time were looking forward a Messiah in form of this modern country of Israel?
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FaithofAbraham
Guest
Not necessarily like this one. But God gave them a king with Saul because they wanted to be like the nations around them, not the strange holy nation God saw for them. So they were leaning in this direction for a long time.
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FaithofAbraham
Guest
I believe Paul. His first death was just to pay for David’s sin. When he died on the cross it was so he can be resurrected and bring the New Covenant which ends sin and death for everyone, which is what this is all about:
Hebrews 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
His death as a child for the sin of David was just a shadow of what he would do for the whole world.
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swariffin
Guest
Dear FoA,
If you believe in Paul, then I appologize for saying that you don’t. If Jesus had to have the first death for David’s sin, and would again had to die a second time, then how do you know that Jesus’ second death would end sins? Jesus in this case, failed in his first attempt. Secondly, if Jesus first attempt was to save David only (sounds like “Saving Private Ryan” mission to me), then why Jesus not have a special mission to save other such as John the Baptist in whom Jesus said that no man on earth (including David, Moses, Abraham, Adam, Noah, Elijah, Jeremiah, Isiah, etc) ever greater then John the Baptist (Mat 11:11).
Hebrew 10:12, remember : ONE SACRIFICE FOR SINS FOREVER. You yourself bring that there was one sacrifice for forever, why twice?
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ryanoneil
Guest
I’m only human and cannot fully understand the mystery of God. Scripture says "the power of the Most High will overshadow you. . .you will conceive in your womb and bear a son.
I consider 2,000 years of tradition and the belief of 1 billion living people more than conjecture. And although your is the opinion of one man I like debating with you.
I see your point about Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob being still alive with God, but this doesn’t speak about David’s throne. If you want to use this scripture to that end, why not just say David is still alive with God, and sitting on his throne until the arrival of Jesus.
Ironically in (Matt 22:32) Jesus is pointing out that the Sadducees are misenterpreting Scripture because of their lack of faith in God’s power.
WITH GOD ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE
Where does Jesus say Solomon is his older blood brother in the NT?
Where does it say Solomon is Jesus’ older blood brother in the OT?
The conditions were on ALL the kings to follow David.
I don’t think I can give any answer that will satify you FoA. I don’t have all the answers. I don’t know the succession of all the kings and reformers in the remaining books of the Bible. But it is not realistic for you to invalidate the kings that followed David and just insert Jesus for that whole time.
What about (1 Kings 11:31-39)?
What about Ahaz in 2 Kings 16:2
Or Josiah in 2 Kings 22:2
You can’t simply invalidated these kings who were part of God’s plan and insert Jesus the entire time.
Let me respond after my wife and I watch a movie.
Peace,
Ryan
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ryanoneil
Guest
We don’t believe there was any corruption or dishonor when Jesus came from Mary. The only offspring of David and Bathsheba I know about is Solomon.
The body that is sown in the ground is perishable, and the body that is raised is imperishable. The spiritual body in v44 is risen in a glorified state like Jesus’.
If you want to use these verses in your senario, Jesus should have been raised with an imperishable body that was unable to die a second time.
But your senario has Jesus behaving more like Lazarus. We don’t believe that.
Peace,
Ryan
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FaithofAbraham
Guest
His first death was to save his father David’s kingdom since his enemies were starting to blaspheme God for David’s sins regarding Uriah and Bathsheba, it had a different purpose.
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FaithofAbraham
Guest
But within that here’s what I’ve heard from Christians: God created some flesh in Mary’s womb that matched David’s DNA and dwelled in it, even though Romans says he was made from the seed of David. God took some flesh from Mary and cloned it, or God caused her egg to fertilize like a lizard and parthenogenesis, even though both should only result in a female. Also, God has sperm and fertilized her egg, even though we are told God is spirit not a man of flesh.
And on top of all that, Mary is said to be cousin to a daughter of Aaron, a Levite not of David and Judah. John was a Levite. This is the closest we get to the NT actually saying where Mary came from. The Quran also says Mary is sister to Aaron.
But from the Quran, God created the last Adam Jesus like the first Adam, from dust. We know Adam was cursed to return to dust in death in Genesis, and God causes dry bones to live in Ezekiel. So if God can do all this, create Adam from dust and place him in the Garden, why can’t He create Jesus from dust and place him in Mary? This is most Biblical and also scientifically feasible to me, considering all else.
So why not just resurrect David’s own son to be Messiah so that David never fails to have a son on the throne, like God promised? Especially an innocent child who had to pay for David’s sin, which is what Jesus also did for all the Jews later as a man.
This answers all questions for me.
Because there will still be a break in generations, many sons not on the throne until Jesus.
Even if Joseph was the real father of Jesus somehow, if you are suggesting that, it wouldn’t solve the lack of generations on the throne, and Joseph was cursed not to even have the crown through Jechonias.
Jesus said he is greater than Solomon, and believing all else he is the first child born who died, then Solomon was born after. The conditions were on the line of Solomon and were broken right with Solomon when he began to follow other gods, then finally ended with Babylon and no more king on the throne.
But David had promise of an everlasting throne with a son always on it.
Why not, the Old Covenant/Levite Priesthood is obsolete with the New Covenant/Melchizedek Priesthood. Doesn’t it make sense that a New Kingdom also start fresh with a new son who didn’t follow other gods, right from David, especially since he is the only one with a standing promise?
If Christians didn’t have the Trinity notion that Jesus wasn’t born a real human but rather a demigod, a lot would accept what I’m saying with no problem.
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FaithofAbraham
Guest
This one came first:
2 Samuel 12:14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.
Then Solomon:
2 Samuel 12:24 And David comforted Bathsheba his wife, and went in unto her, and lay with her: and she bare a son, and he called his name Solomon: and the LORD loved him.
Where does the dishonor come in here regarding Jesus and his natural body?
1 Corinthians 15:42-45 …It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory:…And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
Just because you are resurrected doesn’t mean you can’t die again if God allows it.
John 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
You get everlasting life by eating from the Tree of Life after you are resurrected, not just because you are resurrected. Jesus lived as we do without the Tree of Life after he was resurrected into Mary, now he eats from it after his second resurrection and lives.
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ryanoneil
Guest
God does what He wills, regardless of what makes sense to us.
No I’m not suggesting Joseph was Jesus’ real father.
Solomon prefigured Jesus. Solomon was the embodiment of wisdom, the new Temple builder, the ruler of the 12 tribes of Israel and the nations of the world. He was only partially what Jesus was fully.
Your puting the cart before the horse.
For conversation’s sake, let’s assume Jesus was David’s son who died. He never took the throne because he died. His younger brother Solomon was the legitimate heir to the throne, no matter how hard you try to deny it. Your genioloy is messed up before it is started. There can’t be two heirs sitting on the throne at the same time. Also the younger brother suceeds the older brother, not the other way around.
How exactly could Jesus sit on David’s throne when David gave it to Solomon?
How have you solved the problem of many sons not on the throne until Jesus resurrection?
Jesus was born a real human. He is not a demigod, but God in the flesh. God redeems human flesh by residing in the flesh. What makes God any less God by coming as a man. He resided in the Temple, didn’t he? Does residing in the Temple make him any less God?
God resurrecting the dead child of a king doesn’t redeem mankind. None of Isreal’s ancient kings redeemed mankind. Other than being royalty, David’s resurrected son would be no different than Lazarus when it comes to saving us.
God taking on human flesh, and taking the punishment that his fallen creation derserves, and then raising himself is redemption. God didn’t use a mere man to redeem mankind, God did it himself.
Peace,
Ryan
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ryanoneil
Guest
Thank you for pointing that out.
This isn’t refering to Jesus. It is refering to us at the end of time.
There will be no more death at this point.
(1 Cor 15:21-26) For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead came also through a human being. For just as in Adam all die, so too in Christ shall all be brought to life, but each one in proper order: Christ the firstfruits; then, at his coming, those who belong to Christ; then comes the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has destroyed every sovereignty and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death
Peace,
Ryan
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FaithofAbraham
Guest
Solomon got a chance to have a promise like David’s, but that ended with Babylon and started ending when Solomon followed other gods.
Now David was the only one with a good promise of an everlasting throne but to keep the promise there needed to be a son straight from David to receive the promise, then David would never fail to have a son on the throne.
So God resurrected the child who suffered and died for David’s sin which is Jesus, and he received the promise straight from David. So Jesus will always have the throne and David will never fail to have a son on the throne.
That’s how the problem is solved.
The Holy Spirit resides in a lot of people but it doesn’t make them gods. But God gave Jesus the power to be like God, he didn’t need to be born a God or deity to have it.
John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
So there is no reason for Jesus to be born a God, but a very good reason for him to be born the resurrected Son of David, in order to keep that promise of an everlasting throne from father to son.
Except for that he is Jesus, and you know the rest of the story of what Jesus did for mankind in his adult life.
How does God taking punishment for man redeem man? Jesus isn’t a whipping boy.
What redeems man reminds us of Sodom, is there any good man here to justify not destroying all of them? So Jesus was that man, and then he gets the job of teaching us how to act, and also how to repent when we act badly. And then as High Priest he takes our sin offerings to God to make atonement for us. And he judges us, rules over us, and destroys Satan when he is done separating sheep from goats.
So Jesus does a lot of things to save us, but there is no reason for him to be born a God to do it. His death was a martyrdom for being obedient to God, and it is that obedience that put him in the position of our savior, he is a good man for God. And then all the saints and martyrs besides him are made judges to rule with him.
So yes in a way he suffered and died for our sins, but his death alone doesn’t save us, it is his obedience to God as a man that really saves us.
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FaithofAbraham
Guest
Were you sown in dishonor? My parents were married and everything like that when I was conceived, there was nothing weird about it. So who was sown in dishonor here?
1 Corinthians 15:42-45 …It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory:…And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
Remember though there were people resurrected after Jesus resurrected from the tomb, they aren’t still alive are they?
Matthew 27:52-53 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
So it is the ability to eat from the Tree of Life, not mere resurrection, that keeps you alive. Thus resurrection into the Second Death of the Lake of Fire if you are judged so, without the Tree of Life.
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swariffin
Guest
Dear FoA,
First, is your interpretation is supported by the bible? I know you as a sola scripturist believer of the bible. So, things you said must be supported by at least one verse from the bible.
Second, you admit that Paul said that One Sacrifice is not Enough. But, you argue that there can be more than one mission of the redemption of sins. In this case, as I said before, you are in contradiction with Paul. My dear brother, It is either Paul made mistakes when he wrote the letter to the Roman or you misinterpret Paul. Jesus’ sacrifice could not be twice, so the first mamzer of David and Betsheba, could not be the Messiah, i.e could not be Jesus.
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