Art inspired by the Novus Ordo

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I would suggest that art in church, perhaps unlike museum art, should be reasonably accessible to all worshipers.

I would also suggest that church art should not arouse mere interest or subjective asthetic reactions (enjoying the light play, for instance). It’s there to instruct and particularly to arouse devotion.

I am no fan of bad “pre-Vatican II” artistic attempts, but at least they had the right end in mind. On the other side of the coin, some of the material posted in the thread is very asthetically pleasing and shows great talent, but it is secular and does not arouse devotion (IMO).

In defense of “overdone” Barouque style churches, don’t forget that in those days you might have spent your entire life in the same church, so extreme richness may have been intended to give the individual a lifetime’s worth of religious “discoveries”. Don’t forget also that most were illiterate in those days.

Just my two cents.

God Bless,
Joan
 
dumspirospero said:
That looks like the Baptist church down the road from my house.
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Somewhere up there in Zachary, Sonny? Pride -Port Hudson Rd. I’m thinking.

Sonny is spoiled by St. Agnes. It is my parish’s next door neighbor and still has its communion rails. But in all fairness, two parishes over is Our Lady of Mercy in Baton Rouge which is a post V II church has modern stained glass and is a pretty reverent NO parish with a separate Adoration Chapel open 24 hrs. a day which I have been known to make use of.

It originally had this awesome triangular stained glass window in a cupola on the roof which allowed the setting western sun to radiate on the altar but it got hit by lightning and caught on fire twice so they took it down.

olomchurch.com/explore.cfm/home/ No pictures but drawings of the church.
 
Leonard is right…OLOM is a very beautiful and breathtaking Church…proof that it isn’t the Novus Ordo that is ruining churches…also proof that more modern architecture can be be pretty…which is not the case most of the time.
brotherhrolf said:
Somewhere up there in Zachary, Sonny? Pride -Port Hudson Rd. I’m thinking.

Sonny is spoiled by St. Agnes. It is my parish’s next door neighbor and still has its communion rails. But in all fairness, two parishes over is Our Lady of Mercy in Baton Rouge which is a post V II church has modern stained glass and is a pretty reverent NO parish with a separate Adoration Chapel open 24 hrs. a day which I have been known to make use of.

It originally had this awesome triangular stained glass window in a cupola on the roof which allowed the setting western sun to radiate on the altar but it got hit by lightning and caught on fire twice so they took it down.

olomchurch.com/explore.cfm/home/ No pictures but drawings of the church.
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neworleanschurches.com/devineprov/devineprov1s.jpg

Or my home parish in New Orleans. I was the most senior altar boy when this Church was dedicated in 1967. The altar is in the middle of the building with the pews spread out in a semi-circle squared by the right angles of the walls of the church. Totally devoid of decoration other than the Stations of the Cross. It originally had Communion rails but those have long since been removed. It could be any protestant house of worship across the deep South.
 
Well, sometimes the tabernacle and crucifix are used as pieces of art.

The tabernacle:


Church website: saint-malachy.org/tour.html (The rest of this Church isn’t horrid, [exterior excluded] but it doesn’t appear to be distinctly Catholic either).

Perhaps this church in Germany…

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

This one is supposed to be our Blessed Mother:

http://www.sanktgregorius.de/kirche/bilder/8.jpg

Church Website: sanktgregorius.de/kirche/index.php
 
Unfinished said:
Well, sometimes the tabernacle and crucifix are used as pieces of art.

The tabernacle:
http://www.saint-malachy.org/res/tour80.jpg

Church website: saint-malachy.org/tour.html (The rest of this Church isn’t horrid, [exterior excluded] but it doesn’t appear to be distinctly Catholic either).

Perhaps this church in Germany…

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger2/2015/893/400/gregorius.0.jpg

This one is supposed to be our Blessed Mother:

http://www.sanktgregorius.de/kirche/bilder/8.jpg

Church Website: sanktgregorius.de/kirche/index.php
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I don’t mean to be disrespectful but the Tabernacle looks like the Borg Cube on Star Trek. The Crucifix has African overtones although it is far too simplistic and I don’t know what to say about the Blessed Mother save that it looks like she’s holding a can of something in her hand.

Ay de mi!
 
Yes, you are right, it isn’t about exceptions.
What it is about is norms. The norms that are acceptable in a
traditional parish. After VII, the bad art and felt banners became the norm. Had the “Spirit of Vatican II” not happened, these would not have been acceptable. Some would have taken to “modernize” parishes, but the wreckovators would not have had a hand in destroying our parishes.

I know they are there, but the majority of the parishes that did
celebrate the TLM before the NO, did not have the “modern” touch.

While a person would find it hard to find an absolute to the pedestian NO mass CAUSING bad art, the “Spirit of VII” did dumb down many things including the acceptable beauty of our parishes.

Where traditionalism flourishes, traditional art and statues flourish. So to say that the Novus Ordo caused bad art is incorrect, however to state that the push for the more pedistrian NO as opposed to the traditional, all the “smells and bells” new mass, had a hand in the acceptance of bad structures and art is an “easy connect the dots.”
djrakowski said:
This discussion isn’t about rules and exceptions. I’m answering the charge that there’s something in the Novus Ordo Mass that inspires bad art, and it simply isn’t true. What insipres bad art is bad faith, just as what inspires good art - that which lifts the spirits to the heavens - is good faith. Novus Ordo isn’t the source of bad faith. Bad catechesis and disobedience are some of the sources of bad faith.
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LilyM said:
It’s a quintessential expression of your desire to trash the NO and nothing else.

Now the interior of Patrick’s church is lovely, although it is woefully lacking in specifically churchy or Catholic features, but I’d be happy worshipping in there at least.

Which I can’t say for half the rococo churches I saw in Europe (complete with masses of tacky gilded cherubs and so overdone and overornate as to make me physically ill)
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Well, if you’re into Masonic tables, the Novus Ordo is definitely for you. I see some people freaking out when they see them.
 
Well…since we are on the topic of art and since music is considered art…here is a “rap song” made by Father Stan Fortunato (see below)
http://www.francescoproductions.com/singlejpgphotos/ban3.07.jpg
AIN’T NO PARTY

*music: Fr. Stan Fortuna, CFR
lyrics: Fr. Stan Fortuna, CFR
*
Yeah man there’s a lot of confusion out there about heaven you know everybody’s talking you know yeah that’s true a lot of people singing about it, rapping about it, all kind of stuff you know

YEAH THAT’S TRUE

Yeah there’s a lot of people confused about of stuff you know

YEAH THAT’S TRUE

There’s a lot of people out there’s suffering a lot of wrong doing

YEAH THAT’S TRUE

Yeah there’s a lot of people confused about lots and lots of things you know

YEAH THAT’S TRUE

But everyone likes to party you know when those people here party they think it’s a bad thing

YEAH THAT’S TRUE

It’s really like celebration you know everybody likes to celebrate

YEAH THAT’S TRUE

Everybody really wants to belong you know everybody really wants to belong that’s the key that boils down to relationships you know people singing about it that heaven’s already here that’s cause they singing about what they got they got there baby they got peace of mind they ain’t worrying about anybody else’s baby

YEAH THAT’S TRUE

How they giving to themselves they probably ain’t giving nothing to themselves to contribute to the peace of mind to others as long as they got there’s then heaven’s here cause it’s just for them then when people get stuck you know about the mystery of it all then they say we’ll heaven only know and that’s true

YEAH THAT’S TRUE

But it’s about relationship you know even people saying you know well good question what if it was a mile away would you pack up and go people say yeah its less than that it’s in your heart

YEAH THAT’S TRUE

So why we packing up and going there and taking people with us yeah so it’s all about relationship you know all these little half truths why they half true they cut deep

YEAH THAT’S TRUE

Because they ragged cause they don’t got the whole round simple full of the truth and that’s the cool and the awesome thing about the catholic idea of this and that’s why there ain’t no party like a catholic party cause a catholic party don’t stop

YEAH THAT’S TRUE

But its about relationship check this out in the context of revelation we know that the heaven or happiness in which we will find ourselves is neither abstraction nor a physical place in the clouds but a living personal relationship with the Holy Trinity it is our meeting with the Father which takes place in the risin Christ through the communion of the Holy Spirit and boy get that down there then when we pray to our Father then we’ll be living like gods our Father and then well be loving each other like real brothers and sisters even with all the problems and everything else like that we be bouncing back then well be having some serious celebration

YEAH THAT’S TRUE

Then we all be getting involved in the party cause like I said there ain’t no party like a Catholic party cause a Catholic party don’t stop

YEAH THAT’S TRUE

YEAH THAT’S TRUE
Does this get under anyones skin except for mine???/
 
BobP123 said:
Well, if you’re into Masonic tables, the Novus Ordo is definitely for you. I see some people freaking out when they see them.
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Oh puh-leeze.

Essential for versus-populum celebration of the Mass, yes.

Not always good-looking, absolutely.

Protestant-inspired perhaps.

Masonic and likely to ‘freak people out’ - only in your own mind and those of your fellow conspiracy-theorists.

There were many more Freemasons infesting the Church in the Enlightenment era, and among all those very same rococo architects who produced the Churches that you admire, than there are today.
 
LilyM said:
Oh puh-leeze.

Essential for versus-populum celebration of the Mass, yes.

Not always good-looking, absolutely.

Protestant-inspired perhaps.

Masonic and likely to ‘freak people out’ - only in your own mind and those of your fellow conspiracy-theorists.

There were many more Freemasons infesting the Church in the Enlightenment era, and among all those very same rococo architects who produced the Churches that you admire, than there are today.
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Mozart was a Freemason. I just found out a few days ago.
 
JKirkLVNV said:
Mozart was a Freemason. I just found out a few days ago.
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Well, the opera The Magic Flute is riddled with references to Freemasonry. Not conclusive proof that he himself was a Freemason, but he certainly had sympathies in that direction if nothing more.

No more singing ‘Ave Verum Corpus’ or his glorious ‘Alleluia’ or his Requiem then, I guess 😉
 
One thing that I have thought about even before this forum was posted, was that if we had the Novus Ordo throughout the centuries as opposed to the traditional Latin Mass as it happened I can only imagine how much beautiful art, architecture and music simply would never have come into existence. For instance, think of how many paintings were done by people such as Raphael or Reubens which were altarpieces, which could not even exist with the celebration being versus populum.

It’s interesting to note that recently some French and Italian intellectuals and artists recently encouraged Pope Benedict to release the conjectured Motu Proprio allowing greater use of the Tridentine Mass because, they noted (as some of them did originally in the 60’s and 70’s), that the traditional Latin Mass has been the source for quite a lot of the art of Western civilization. Note that they did not write to the Pope saying “Hey, don’t even bother with the old Mass, the New Mass is just inspiring so much great art right now it really doesn’t make a difference which rite you use!”

Here is a quote from the letter (translated) signed by some Italian artists and intellectuals:

“The publication of the Motu Proprio by the Pope which will liberalize the celebration of the Latin Mass according to the Missal of Saint Pius V is close.” It is an extraordinarily important event for the Church and even for the culture and history of our civilization. Historically, lay intellectuals were actually those to realize more and better the disaster, the actual cultural destruction, represented by the “prohibition” of the liturgy of Saint Pius V and the disappearance of Latin as sacred language of the Catholic Church.

When, 40 years ago – in contravention to the documents of the Council – the prohibition of the ancient liturgy of the Church (that which had been celebrated even during the Council) was imposed, there was a great and meritorious protest by very important intellectuals who considered this decision as an attack on the roots of our Christian Civilization (the liturgy has always been a center and a fountain of the most sublime art). Two appeals were published in defense of the Mass of Saint Pius V, in 1966 and 1971."

rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2006/12/italian-intellectuals-sign-tridentine.html

It is simply not a coincidence that so much poor art and architecture (or the stripping away of distinctively Catholic art and architecture) has happened in the past forty years. We wanted a stripped down liturgy; well, we got stripped down art and architecture as well. They go hand in hand.
 
Brennan_Doherty said:
One thing that I have thought about even before this forum was posted, was that if we had the Novus Ordo throughout the centuries as opposed to the traditional Latin Mass as it happened I can only imagine how much beautiful art, architecture and music simply would never have come into existence. For instance, think of how many paintings were done by people such as Raphael or Reubens which were altarpieces, which could not even exist with the celebration being versus populum.

It’s interesting to note that recently some French and Italian intellectuals and artists recently encouraged Pope Benedict to release the conjectured Motu Proprio allowing greater use of the Tridentine Mass because, they noted (as some of them did originally in the 60’s and 70’s), that the traditional Latin Mass has been the source for quite a lot of the art of Western civilization. Note that they did not write to the Pope saying “Hey, don’t even bother with the old Mass, the New Mass is just inspiring so much great art right now it really doesn’t make a difference which rite you use!”

Here is a quote from the letter (translated) signed by some Italian artists and intellectuals:

“The publication of the Motu Proprio by the Pope which will liberalize the celebration of the Latin Mass according to the Missal of Saint Pius V is close.” It is an extraordinarily important event for the Church and even for the culture and history of our civilization. Historically, lay intellectuals were actually those to realize more and better the disaster, the actual cultural destruction, represented by the “prohibition” of the liturgy of Saint Pius V and the disappearance of Latin as sacred language of the Catholic Church.

When, 40 years ago – in contravention to the documents of the Council – the prohibition of the ancient liturgy of the Church (that which had been celebrated even during the Council) was imposed, there was a great and meritorious protest by very important intellectuals who considered this decision as an attack on the roots of our Christian Civilization (the liturgy has always been a center and a fountain of the most sublime art). Two appeals were published in defense of the Mass of Saint Pius V, in 1966 and 1971."

rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2006/12/italian-intellectuals-sign-tridentine.html

It is simply not a coincidence that so much poor art and architecture (or the stripping away of distinctively Catholic art and architecture) has happened in the past forty years. We wanted a stripped down liturgy; well, we got stripped down art and architecture as well. They go hand in hand.
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No, it’s certainly isn’t a coincidence. It simply can’t be laid at the door of the NO Mass, any more than blame for the abuse OF the NO Mass can be laid at it’s door. The bad architecture is the result of living in a time when architectects started innovating. Same with art, same with music (thank God the innovators in the Church lagged substantially behind and we’re only stuck with banal folk music. Given enough time, they’d have us sing rap songs at Mass).

Does anyone ever consider that it might be the TIMES and not the Mass or the Council?
 
Brennan_Doherty said:
One thing that I have thought about even before this forum was posted, was that if we had the Novus Ordo throughout the centuries as opposed to the traditional Latin Mass as it happened I can only imagine how much beautiful art, architecture and music simply would never have come into existence. For instance, think of how many paintings were done by people such as Raphael or Reubens which were altarpieces, which could not even exist with the celebration being versus populum.

It’s interesting to note that recently some French and Italian intellectuals and artists recently encouraged Pope Benedict to release the conjectured Motu Proprio allowing greater use of the Tridentine Mass because, they noted (as some of them did originally in the 60’s and 70’s), that the traditional Latin Mass has been the source for quite a lot of the art of Western civilization. Note that they did not write to the Pope saying “Hey, don’t even bother with the old Mass, the New Mass is just inspiring so much great art right now it really doesn’t make a difference which rite you use!”

Here is a quote from the letter (translated) signed by some Italian artists and intellectuals:

“The publication of the Motu Proprio by the Pope which will liberalize the celebration of the Latin Mass according to the Missal of Saint Pius V is close.” It is an extraordinarily important event for the Church and even for the culture and history of our civilization. Historically, lay intellectuals were actually those to realize more and better the disaster, the actual cultural destruction, represented by the “prohibition” of the liturgy of Saint Pius V and the disappearance of Latin as sacred language of the Catholic Church.

When, 40 years ago – in contravention to the documents of the Council – the prohibition of the ancient liturgy of the Church (that which had been celebrated even during the Council) was imposed, there was a great and meritorious protest by very important intellectuals who considered this decision as an attack on the roots of our Christian Civilization (the liturgy has always been a center and a fountain of the most sublime art). Two appeals were published in defense of the Mass of Saint Pius V, in 1966 and 1971."

rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2006/12/italian-intellectuals-sign-tridentine.html

It is simply not a coincidence that so much poor art and architecture (or the stripping away of distinctively Catholic art and architecture) has happened in the past forty years. We wanted a stripped down liturgy; well, we got stripped down art and architecture as well. They go hand in hand.
Click to expand...
For starters the majority of that music, art and architecture is and was hundreds of years old, and was at the time of Vatican 2 as well. No musicians anywhere near the level of a Palestrina, a Bach or a Mozart wrote Masses or distinctly Catholic religious music after the early 1800s. Verdi being one possible honourable exception, though his requiem sounds too much like his operas to really earn the term “Mass”.

In fact the amount of Protestant hymns contained in our hymnals before and after Vatican 2 is evidence that for the past century and a half at least we’ve had next to no new production worth noting in terms of musical culture.

Don’t notice any rivals to Michelangelo, Bramante or Bernini springing up since the Enlightement on the artistic and architectural sides of Catholicism either.

So are we talking specifically Catholic culture or rather Renaissance through to Enlightement culture? (Which produced, for example, BOTH St Peters in Rome AND St Paul’s in London, Handel’s generically Christian Messiah as well as Allegri’s unmistakeably Catholic Miserere).

You could say for the most part was pan-European and humanistic rather than truly inspired by religion and certainly NOT by Catholicism. Look at the many sculptors and painters who switched easily between artwork related to Ancient Greek and Roman history and mythology and religious work.

I could discuss Michelangelo’s scandalising nudes on the Sistine ceiling, but I humbly acknowledge that without the Pope’s patronage it wouldn’t have even come about, so you can class it as Catholic art if you like.
 
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