As Casualties Mount, Bush Ignores Reality

[walstan]

mike182d:

We’re not talking about their means of death but rather why they died.

For example, one man dies from overdosing on heroine while another is shot for proclaiming his faith in Jesus Christ. Both are equal, right? It doesn’t matter how a person died, right? To think as such undermines the whole theology of martyrdom. It is not the death of a man who is going to die anyway that is evil but rather the reason why they died. In the example I just gave, the death of the martyr is incredibly noble while the death of the heroine addict is incredibly tragic. Just because they both died doesn’t mean that both deaths are equal.

So what you are saying is that death is irrelevant as long as those that died did so in a “Just” cause. If you want to use the paralel of martyrdom remember, there are those who are in sympathy to Al Qaeda who will say that those who blow themselves up are
martyrs. Now whether you agree with them or not is immaterial, are they martyrs to their cause? or not? Are they noble? or not? It is all to do with your perspective, the only asbsolute is that they are dead.

 

[mike182d]

walstan:

If you want to use the paralel of martyrdom remember, there are those who are in sympathy to Al Qaeda who will say that those who blow themselves up are
martyrs. Now whether you agree with them or not is immaterial, are they martyrs to their cause? or not? Are they noble? or not? It is all to do with your perspective, the only asbsolute is that they are dead.

Actually, its not whether or not I agree with them, its whether or not what they’re dying for is true. If someone were to die for believing 2+2=5, even though he believed in what he was dying for, it doesn’t follow that what he was dying for is true. Furthermore, because what he was dying for really wasn’t true, it makes the death even more tragic.

Your position seems dangerously close to relativism.

Furthermore, your whole argument seems hung up on your belief that death, in itself, across the board, is always an evil. To think as such completely negates the redemptive act of Jesus Christ. Because of Jesus’ death and resurrection, death is no longer an evil **but a good. **I mean, can you think of another way for human beings to enter into heaven?

 

[walstan]

mike182d:

Furthermore, your whole argument seems hung up on your belief that death, in itself, across the board, is always an evil. To think as such completely negates the redemptive act of Jesus Christ. Because of Jesus’ death and resurrection, death is no longer an evil but a good. I mean, can you think of another way for human beings to enter into heaven?

The death of Christ was at the hands of man and was therefore evil, the ressurection of Christ was at the hands of God and was therefore good, what that proves is that good can come from evil but only at the hands of God, not man. Consequently any death at the hands of man is intrinsically evil, natural death cames from God and is therefore intrinsically good. So, if you want a chance to go to heaven, don’t kill yourself, and if you want others to have the same chance, don’t ask them to kill others.

 

[mike182d]

walstan:

The death of Christ was at the hands of man and was therefore evil, the ressurection of Christ was at the hands of God and was therefore good, what that proves is that good can come from evil but only at the hands of God, not man. Consequently any death at the hands of man is intrinsically evil, natural death cames from God and is therefore intrinsically good. So, if you want a chance to go to heaven, don’t kill yourself, and if you want others to have the same chance, don’t ask them to kill others.

Can you point to a reference, anywhere in the Catechism, Summa Theologica, or any theological work for that matter, that states that any death at the hands of a man is always instrisically evil?

That is not a Catholic belief.

 

[vern_humphrey]

walstan:

So what you are saying is that death is irrelevant as long as those that died did so in a “Just” cause. If you want to use the paralel of martyrdom remember, there are those who are in sympathy to Al Qaeda who will say that those who blow themselves up are
martyrs. Now whether you agree with them or not is immaterial, are they martyrs to their cause? or not? Are they noble? or not? It is all to do with your perspective, the only asbsolute is that they are dead.

In other words, you ARE claiming moral equivallence between the United States on the one hand, and brutal dictators and bloodthirsty terrorists on the other.

Pathetic.

 

[Thekla]

A complete failure to take responsibility. It’s ALL spin; liberal and right wing corporate spin.

As a Catholic, I find your line about Islam equalling Satanism to be extremely offensive and anti-Catholic. The Holy Father has been clear on this point and I hope that you are operating from a position of ignorance and not one of hate and willful disregard for the Church’s position.

 

[gilliam]

Thekla:

A complete failure to take responsibility. It’s ALL spin; liberal and right wing corporate spin.

As a Catholic, I find your line about Islam equalling Satanism to be extremely offensive and anti-Catholic. The Holy Father has been clear on this point and I hope that you are operating from a position of ignorance and not one of hate and willful disregard for the Church’s position.

On the other hand, the Church does not say Islam is just as valid a religion as Christianity, you do know that, right?

 

[TomK]

Don’t forget Bosnia when Clinton bombed the Christians into the Stone Age to rescue the Moslems.

It sure did us a lot of good on 9/11; didn’t it?

 

[Thekla]

gilliam:

On the other hand, the Church does not say Islam is just as valid a religion as Christianity, you do know that, right?

Why does there have to be an other hand?

I’m well aware of the Church’s position. If validity were the issue, there are a lot of Christian religions that the Church would take issue with. There’s also quite a wide range between “not just as valid as Christianity” and Satanism.

 

[leaner]

Ok, I’m totally out of my league with you guys – LOL – but haven’t there been like…at least FOUR countries that have held their first democratic elections since this all started? Isn’t that progress over what those citizens lived with before this!!! Again, just musing outloud…feel free to firebomb me…I have a baby to put to bed…

 

[vern_humphrey]

leaner:

Ok, I’m totally out of my league with you guys – LOL – but haven’t there been like…at least FOUR countries that have held their first democratic elections since this all started? Isn’t that progress over what those citizens lived with before this!!! Again, just musing outloud…feel free to firebomb me…I have a baby to put to bed…

If it were 60 years ago, they’d be demanding we apologize to Hitler and give Guadalcanal back to the Japanese.

 

[trailblazer]

Americans are doing an awsome job in Iraq! Don’t let left-wing rhetoric fool you. We have saved lives, provided a quality of life not their before, and gave them the opportunity for a long term quality they never dreamed of. In addition, we have saved our nation from an enemy who hated America and would have potentially harmed us and our loved ones. In addition, anti-American terrorists had a fairly safe haven under Sudam, that is no longer available. Everyday, the media should be shouting the praises of America and its fighting men & women. The media should be lifting the dead Americans as heroes to inspire patriotism and willingness to remove this energy. Instead it is doing everything to KILL SPIRIT and turn our defenses away from these potential harmful enemies.

**Casualties! ** Oh my…imagine that…there is a war and casualties connected to it. Is this really surprizing? What is remarkable and is something that should be shouted is how few casualties there have been compared to what we have accoplished and compared to Vietnan, Korea, and WWII. Think about it! Don’t let those who hate what our country stands for in God & freedom, fool you. Look at their rhetoric critically! Call them on it! **Promote the good being done! Promote America! **

Love & peace in Christ,
Bob

 

[vern_humphrey]

Americans are doing an awsome job in Iraq! Don’t let left-wing rhetoric fool you. We have saved lives, provided a quality of life not their before, and gave them the opportunity for a long term quality they never dreamed of. In addition, we have saved our nation from an enemy who hated America and would have potentially harmed us and our loved ones. In addition, anti-American terrorists had a fairly safe haven under Sudam, that is no longer available. Everyday, the media should be shouting the praises of America and its fighting men & women. The media should be lifting the dead Americans as heroes to inspire patriotism and willingness to remove this energy. Instead it is doing everything to KILL SPIRIT and turn our defenses away from these potential harmful enemies.

**Casualties! **Oh my…imagine that…there is a war and casualties connected to it. Is this really surprizing? What is remarkable and is something that should be shouted is how few casualties there have been compared to what we have accoplished and compared to Vietnan, Korea, and WWII. Think about it! Don’t let those who hate what our country stands for in God & freedom, fool you. Look at their rhetoric critically! Call them on it! **Promote the good being done! Promote America! **

Love & peace in Christ,
Bob

We’re at war. A war that is as just a cause and as necessary to our security and that of the free world as WWII.

Let’s remember – politics stops at the water’s edge. We have it in our power to support or hurt our troops and our cause.

 

[Thekla]

It’s the Americans in our government who are the problem. Don’t let the right-wing rhetoric fool you. As Mark Twain said, “Loyalty to the country, always. Loyalty to the government, when they deserve it.”

They do deserve to be held accountable for their failure to protect the country on 9/11. They do deserve to be held accountable for their failure to capture or kill all those responsible for 9/11. They do deserve to be held accountable for deliberately leading Americans to believe that Iraq was responsible for 9/11. They do deserve to be held accountable for attempting to deceive Americans about the threat of Iraq’s WMD’s. They do deserve to be held accountable for attrocious pre-war planning. They do deserve to be held accountable for their failure to follow through and provide for current military and veterans alike.

It’s obvious that those in our government hold the citizenry in contempt. Their lack of loyalty to the people is a cankor upon our nation and they deserve to be held accountable.

 

[gilliam]

Thekla:

As Mark Twain said, “Loyalty to the country, always. Loyalty to the government, when they deserve it.”

Another sarcastic, know it all, atheist reporter heard from…

 

[mike182d]

Thekla:

It’s obvious that those in our government hold the citizenry in contempt. Their lack of loyalty to the people is a cankor upon our nation and they deserve to be held accountable.

Please cite such examples. Thank you.

 

[mike182d]

Thekla:

They do deserve to be held accountable for their failure to protect the country on 9/11. They do deserve to be held accountable for their failure to capture or kill all those responsible for 9/11. They do deserve to be held accountable for deliberately leading Americans to believe that Iraq was responsible for 9/11. They do deserve to be held accountable for attempting to deceive Americans about the threat of Iraq’s WMD’s. They do deserve to be held accountable for attrocious pre-war planning. They do deserve to be held accountable for their failure to follow through and provide for current military and veterans alike.

Show me proof of the following claims:

1. The Bush administration was responsible for the lack of adequate defense against 9/11.
2. The Bush administration has caught or killed no one responsible for 9/11 yet.
3. The Bush administration *knew *there were no WMDs
4. The Bush administration intentionally misled the American people
5. The United States Government never has done any pre-war planning against any nation it is currently at odds with.
6. The Bush administration has failed to provide for current military and veterans more than their predecessors.

You cannot argue with baseless charges just because Michael Moore, the Democratic party, MoveOn.org, and Hollywood do.

It’s obvious that those in our government hold the citizenry in contempt. Their lack of loyalty to the people is a cankor upon our nation and they deserve to be held accountable.

On the contrary, it is obvious that opponents to the current administration hold America and the brave men and women that fight for her, in contempt.

 

[mike182d]

**Casualties! **Oh my…imagine that…there is a war and casualties connected to it. Is this really surprizing?

No, no, no! Don’t you understand? The Iraqi people were happier when they were being brutally tortured, murdered, and kidnapped under the iron fist of a brutal dictator. Why should we sacrifice so that they can be free? They’re just Iraqi’s…who cares? No American life is worth saving an Iraqi. /sarcasm

 

[vern_humphrey]

Thekla:

It’s the Americans in our government who are the problem. Don’t let the right-wing rhetoric fool you. As Mark Twain said, “Loyalty to the country, always. Loyalty to the government, when they deserve it.”

And loyalty to the troops, never.

Hey, what’s a few hundred or a few thousand more casualties? The troops are merely toys to be played with as it suits the fancy of those who never wore the uniform, nor fired a shot in anger.

Enjoy your rants, but remember that you’re adding your mite to the weight our troops must carry. They will pay for your pleasure.

Thekla:

They do deserve to be held accountable for their failure to protect the country on 9/11.

Absolutely. And that definitely includes those who failed to respond vigorously to the first World Trade Center bombing, to the killing of Americans in Somalia, to the bombing of the USS Cole, and to the bombing of our embassies in Africa.

Thekla:

They do deserve to be held accountable for their failure to capture or kill all those responsible for 9/11.

We’re getting them – one by one, we’re getting them.

Thekla:

They do deserve to be held accountable for deliberately leading Americans to believe that Iraq was responsible for 9/11.

And who did that?

But as time goes on, we learn more and more about Iraq’s support of terrorism.

Thekla:

They do deserve to be held accountable for attempting to deceive Americans about the threat of Iraq’s WMD’s.

Every intelligence agency in the world believed Saddam Hussain had WMD. Saddam Hussain himself believed it.

Thekla:

They do deserve to be held accountable for attrocious pre-war planning. They do deserve to be held accountable for their failure to follow through and provide for current military and veterans alike.

In fact, they have an excellent record both in planning and in execution. The current Administration has done more for us veterans than the previous administration – by a LONG chalk!

Thekla:

It’s obvious that those in our government hold the citizenry in contempt. Their lack of loyalty to the people is a cankor upon our nation and they deserve to be held accountable.

No, it’s obvious that those on the left hold the citizenry and our troops in contempt. Their lack of loyalty to the people is a cankor upon our nation and they deserve to be held accountable.

 

[trailblazer]

THEKLA!

It seems many of you have very little respect for America and only want to hurt it and its peoples. You seem to want to tear her down rather than build her up. That is all such unfounded rhetoric is doing. You make hurtful statements founded on heresay – a repitition of a program. Please answer my questions and show us all that what you say is based on fact, not rhetoric:

So, you claim that the Bush administration was responsible for inadequate preparation for 9/11. How so? How would you, or say Clinton, have done better in being prepared? Please explain as this should be very interesting. I remember watching Bush on TV and being amazed at his composture, empathy, and ability to handle one of the greatest trageties ever!

As the administration has destroyed numerous and numerous terrorist…and as all these Islamic terrorist are connected in their targeting the US…it has not only probably gotten many involved in 9/11, but many more planning similar or more horrid attacks. Go Bush!!! What percent of the terrorists actually involved in 9/11 are still alive and able to function as freely as they once did in planning such attacks?

Prove to us that the administration knew there were no WMD in Iraq. Certainly, many, including DEMOCRATS, believed the weapons were there…as did intelligence from other countries.
Prove that the administration has never done any prewar planning. Somehow, considering the make-up of the administration, I find these allegations most rediculous.

How has this administration… failed to provide funding and aid for its military forces…please include what part the House and Senate played in this?