As Church Shifts, a Cardinal Welcomes Gays; They Embrace a ‘Miracle’

[friardchips]

For one, I’m not justifying anything that is in contradiction with Catholic teaching. Rather just that a gay/ssa celibate person should be able to be open about their experiences and trials/tribulations wihtout being viewed basically as a trojan horse or listen to the constant barrage of someone just talking about their cross = throwing sexuality in there faces.

Also, I’m not making assumptions about poor behavior by Catholics, I’ve seen. I seen plenty of homophobic comments directed at gay people by my fellow parishoners (**not referring to marriage issue because it is clearly against teaching to allow same sex marriage). Rather plenty of comments about how they are all child molesters or threats to children, submersive to Catholic teaching, and rarely do they distinguish between acts or inclination nor does anyone call out this remarks which often lack charity. Also try talking to actual celibate gay/ssa people and you’ll see these experiences tend to be rather common because the feeling of often being viewed as a leper isn’t rare. With all of this, it is extremely hard to feel welcome to a parish and make great fellowship. I mean without the Eucharist and the other sacraments, I would have left a long time ago.

From my own personal experiences and luckily I’m masculine had medical school as an excuse for not dating. But there are many Catholics including my own family who would react extremely negative if my orientation was known even though I’m celibate. I’d expect hostility at worst and probably distance at best.

But I guess my own experiences and experiences of people like me doesn’t fit your narrative so it must not be true. AFter all I’m just apparently making a strawman argument. I’m done with this conversation. I’m sick and tired of being treated like the problem step child in this forum. I need a break from this place.

I get that there is a difference between a person’s inclinations and their indulgence of thoughts and acts - I never said anything different - but what I don’t understand, is your suggestion that there are Catholics at church who lack in charity when in communication with homosexual people, or that they somehow avoid them, uncharitably; yet, how is it that a homosexual person is identified as having certain inclinations - by what they are wearing, their body language, is their past private history somehow known, are they holding hands with someone else of the same gender?

 

[at9009]

I get that there is a difference between a person’s inclinations and their indulgence of thoughts and acts - I never said anything different - but what I don’t understand, is where you are suggesting that there are Catholics at church who lack in charity when in communication with homosexual people, or that they somehow avoid them, uncharitably; yet, how is it that a homosexual person is identified as having certain inclinations - by what they are wearing, their body language, is their past private history somehow known, are they holding hands with someone else of the same gender?

This is the last I’m having of this conversation because I seriously need a break from it all.
But these articles should offer some perspective. The author is far more eloquent than I am. I’d also suggest reading Washed and Waiting by Wesley Hill.

spiritualfriendship.org/2013/08/12/chris-this-is-me/
spiritualfriendship.org/2014/01/27/on-coming-out-and-being-known/

 

[Sy_Noe]

*1 Corinthians 6:9 -

“You know perfectly well that people who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God: people of immoral lives, idolaters, adulterers, catamites, sodomites, thieves, usurers, drunkards, slanderers and swindlers will never inherit the Kingdom of God.”*

• also translated as ‘effeminates’ and ‘those who practice homosexuality’.

There is so much that the Bible says including creation being completed in 6 days with the evening and the morning (24 hrs) being a day and women not speaking and so much more. It also says in Ezekiel 16:49 of Sodom’s sins, that they were pride and having too much food and being prosperous but not helping the poor and needy.

 

[Sy_Noe]

Same as with people I know in any other venue: if someone tells me their orientation, then I trust them to be honest. If they don’t then I try not to make unwarranted assumptions.

Other assumptions that I try not to make about people include: not assuming that an engaged couple is sleeping together, not assuming that a married couple is contracepting, and not assuming that a single person who tells me that he or she is straight [resp. gay] is sexually active with people of the opposite [resp. same] gender.

Are sexual assumptions the only assumptions you do not make?

 

[Peter_J]

Are sexual assumptions the only assumptions you do not make?

Of course. Didn’t you ever read the commandment “Let not thy assumptions be sexual”?

 

[Peter_J]

This is the last I’m having of this conversation because I seriously need a break from it all.
But these articles should offer some perspective. The author is far more eloquent than I am. I’d also suggest reading Washed and Waiting by Wesley Hill.

spiritualfriendship.org/2013/08/12/chris-this-is-me/
spiritualfriendship.org/2014/01/27/on-coming-out-and-being-known/

Two thoughts come to mind: first, I’m admittedly someone who spends too much time on CAF and too little on sites like SpiritualFriendship, so I thank you for reminding me about them.

Second, I’ve sometimes pointed out to people (including you, I think, on some occasion or other) that CAF isn’t any worse than other forums out there … but just now I was thinking that perhaps I should be a little more careful, when I do that, to make it clear that I’m not saying that two wrongs make a right or trying to minimize the ills of forums. But anyhow, I will look forward to your return as I think your contributions are very valuable here.

 

[friardchips]

There is so much that the Bible says including creation being completed in 6 days with the evening and the morning (24 hrs) being a day and women not speaking and so much more. It also says in Ezekiel 16:49 of Sodom’s sins, that they were pride and having too much food and being prosperous but not helping the poor and needy.

Scripture is the Word of God. Period. Yes, there are varying contexts, yet this factor doesn’t change their truthfulness.

 

[St_Francis]

This is the last I’m having of this conversation because I seriously need a break from it all.
But these articles should offer some perspective. The author is far more eloquent than I am. I’d also suggest reading Washed and Waiting by Wesley Hill.

spiritualfriendship.org/2013/08/12/chris-this-is-me/
spiritualfriendship.org/2014/01/27/on-coming-out-and-being-known/

Well, I for one appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut and that of the other gay/SSA/lesbian people who post here. All too often, what we hear is about people who actually do have an agenda (I try to carefully make sure that I identify them as homosexual activists, not to be confused with regular SSA people) and thus we heterosexual people do sometimes feel fearful.

However, the contributions of you and others has taught me that the important thing for me to do is to simply be friendly, and keep my eyes open wider for people who may feel a desire for fellowship but be unable to start it off, for whatever reason. I am old enough not to worry too much about making a fool of myself

When we hear about people’s lived realities, we can have more compassion for their situation, so thank you for sharing about some of your reality (and I also thank others, like MIStudent).

 

[at9009]

Well, I for one appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut and that of the other gay/SSA/lesbian people who post here. All too often, what we hear is about people who actually do have an agenda (I try to carefully make sure that I identify them as homosexual activists, not to be confused with regular SSA people) and thus we heterosexual people do sometimes feel fearful.

However, the contributions of you and others has taught me that the important thing for me to do is to simply be friendly, and keep my eyes open wider for people who may feel a desire for fellowship but be unable to start it off, for whatever reason. I am old enough not to worry too much about making a fool of myself

When we hear about people’s lived realities, we can have more compassion for their situation, so thank you for sharing about some of your reality (and I also thank others, like MIStudent).

Thank you. I had let the stress if my step 1 exam get to me and all that contributed to my already normally high stress levels . Now that the exam is no longer on my shoulders, I’m a lot more calm. Until I start my next year lol.

Thanks for your comments as well. I sometimes forget that people who do not deal with this cross on a daily basis are going to need time to process and understand it so I need to work on my patience with that.

 

[abucs]

Scripture is the Word of God. Period. Yes, there are varying contexts, yet this factor doesn’t change their truthfulness.

I believe the Hebrew word used in the creation story of Genesis can mean ‘day’ or it can mean ‘period of time’.

Considering that the Sun was created later in the week and the whole text is written in the form of a song or poem the idea that Genesis talks about a 24 hour day is not credible.

I agree with you that the context needs to be included when reading Scripture.

 

[Rau]

…

That the Mass was open communion. No questions asked.

That the men and women attending were, in many cases, married to their partners. In other words, sexually active men and women attended and received communion.

Well, it’s not usual to “ask questions” of those presenting for communion. But assuming by “married” and “sexually active” you are referring to same sex partners - and if this was manifest and those involved have no intention to desist - then the ministers who offered communion acted contrary to canon law.

 

[Rau]

Thank you for these words. Do you think that when people such as Cardinal Tobin open the doors (and the Table) to our LGBTQ brothers and sisters, it sets a precedence, regardless of teaching? Perhaps next time, Cardinal Cupich will do something similar in Chicago? And then San Diego, and then who knows? Sometimes the law lags behind what is happening in the pews and in our communities.

Do you then contend that:

• The Church is wrong to deem (in Canon Law) that those persisting in grave sin ought not present to communion and that Ministers ought refuse communion to those whose sin is manifest and who obstinately refuse to change;

or do you contend that:

• The Church is wrong to teach the grave sinfulness of same sex sexual relationships?

 

[Rau]

No, but when he went into the homes of tax collectors and lepers and those who were marginalized, he ate and drank with them. He cared for them and loved them. He didn’t say, 'Before you have a single morsel of bread, you have to repent and stop doing what you’re doing.’

The participants were not invited to tea and biscuits either:shrug:

 

[Rau]

The problem arises in what is a gay identity. That is an ideological analysis of what is a very concrete fact: I am sexually attracted to men. Like it or not that is the bare fact of the matter when people call themselves gay or homosexual. No one outside a small subset of Christians uses the term SSA. And thus evangelizing with such a limited term serves no one outside of those already suited to such terminology. In other words, it barely deserves the term evangelizing.

Secular society, holds the view (ably supported and promoted by the media) that those experiencing sexual attractions to the same sex, rather than the opposite sex, act entirely properly when they form committed sexual relationships.

Secular society adopts the descriptor “gay” for these people.

Consequently, if a person describes themselves as gay, then this will often be taken to mean that that individual holds the same view as secular society.

I think that sheds some light on how the word “gay” might be thought to carry a somewhat different meaning than the rather clinical terms “SSA”. The latter represent an inclination experienced, the former extending it to include a positive view about the inclination.

I accept that many people will use gay without intending that extended meaning.

 

[Rau]

The participants were not invited to tea and biscuits either:shrug:

Or reading some later posts…perhaps that’s all they were invited to!

 

[Peter_J]

Secular society, holds the view (ably supported and promoted by the media) that those experiencing sexual attractions to the same sex, rather than the opposite sex, act entirely properly when they form committed sexual relationships.

Secular society adopts the descriptor “gay” for these people.

Consequently, if a person describes themselves as gay, then this will often be taken to mean that that individual holds the same view as secular society.

Yes, it is sometimes taken that way. I’ve also sometimes seen people describe themselves as “formerly gay” or “ex gay” without having had a change of sexual orientation. For both of those reasons I sometimes use the term homosexual rather than gay, in some situations – it’s not I’m that agreeing with the aforementioned usages of the word gay, I’m just trying to avoid giving liberals or “ex gays” an opportunity to spin the conversation.

 

[at9009]

Secular society, holds the view (ably supported and promoted by the media) that those experiencing sexual attractions to the same sex, rather than the opposite sex, act entirely properly when they form committed sexual relationships.

Secular society adopts the descriptor “gay” for these people.

Consequently, if a person describes themselves as gay, then this will often be taken to mean that that individual holds the same view as secular society.

I think that sheds some light on how the word “gay” might be thought to carry a somewhat different meaning than the rather clinical terms “SSA”. The latter represent an inclination experienced, the former extending it to include a positive view about the inclination.

I accept that many people will use gay without intending that extended meaning.

Well then one simple and easy solution is to rather than jump to solutions about one’s behavior, moral outlook, and theological positions, simply ask what a person means by particular words since so many people have different definitions of the words which leads to a ton of confusion.

I can tell talking with many gay people, the term SSA does not convey clinical meaning to them but odes to a past association with reparative therapy where often less than ethical things where done all with a lot of other negative things. So, to them, anyone using that word pushes them away from the faith.

I think people like Wesley Hill who talks on the topic a lot who often uses the terms SSA and gay interchangably has an ability to reach out more.

 

[reggieM]

For me, it’s all about trust, and unfortunately, a lack of it when terms are used to manipulate or cover-up. When a person’s intentions are concealed but at the same time celebrated – that causes a profound breakdown in trust that no legal enforcements of equality can heal.

 

[EIF5A]

Even among the Christian/Catholic circle, there’s stigma with homosexual attractions.

It’s not a sin, but it’s still a malfunction, a psychological/spiritual state of imperfection, not being turned out correctly.

So why would I use the term “same-sex attraction” to point out the stigma I want to avoid?

“Gay” gets the meaning across in a succinct manner without actually spelling everything out.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

Well then one simple and easy solution is to rather than jump to solutions about one’s behavior, moral outlook, and theological positions, simply ask what a person means by particular words since so many people have different definitions of the words which leads to a ton of confusion.

I can tell talking with many gay people, the term SSA does not convey clinical meaning to them but odes to a past association with reparative therapy where often less than ethical things where done all with a lot of other negative things. So, to them, anyone using that word pushes them away from the faith.

Glad to see you back on this topic. at9009.

IMHO I think many people use the “identifying as gay means you must be an unrepentant active homosexual or that you sympathize with the Gay Agenda” to just dismiss all gay people out of hand as hardened unrepentant sinners.

This may be more of a thing in quasi-Calvinist circles that already accept that “God has pre-destined some people to Hell and there is nothing they can do about it”. It’s easy then to write off gay people as the equivalent of vampires, “reprobates” who are damned just for existing.

The brouhaha over “gay” reminds of similar issues with “feminist”. Many MRA types dismiss any woman who doesn’t think women should be completely subservient to men as they supposedly were in the “good old days” as a “feminist” who is automatically an evil enemy of men.