As Church Shifts, a Cardinal Welcomes Gays; They Embrace a ‘Miracle’

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at9009 said:
Yeah. Unfortunately in the US at least, many Protestant denominations have seemingly idolatrized marriage and hte nuclear family. Often, marriage isn’t viewed as a vocation but rather a checkbox in life. Not to mention how some have attacked singleness as a sign of lack of spiritual maturity, selfishness, and other things. Some have even gone as far to at least implicitly suggest that marriage is the only/best path to holiness. The whole aspect of purity culture in the 90s furthered this. The view basically lead to do not learn to sublimate desires into God’s Will but rather white knuckle your way through life until you find your spouse and then have fun. Obviously not all Protestant churches are like this, but some of the seemingly more vocal people act like this.

At least with Catholic and the Orthodox Church we have a tradition and understanding of vocations, not to mention many celibate saints to look for inspiration to.
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Fascinating point - thank you for sharing that. I had not seen that explained before although I have seen the attitude you are referring to among Protestant friends. It makes life very difficult for single, celibate Christians - as it is hard enough for find friends and companionship without having to deal with scorn and negativity about the presumed inferior state of non-marriage.

I’ll add this also as perhaps the other view …
It might be, in Catholic circles, that we undervalue the vocation of marriage, in the sense that we have celibate priests leading us and, from my experience, opportunities and encouragement for marriage are lessened as a result.
For a single man, for example, choosing between marriage and priesthood - there will be pressure for the celibate life. This is generally a good thing, we certainly need the vocations to the priesthood! But sometimes God does call to marriage directly and at times, our priests may be disappointed by that and/or not really know or care much about how a single man can find a proper spouse. I know quite a large number of single Catholic men – who probably all would be married by now if they were Protestants (for better or worse … LOL).
 
reggieM said:
Fascinating point - thank you for sharing that. I had not seen that explained before although I have seen the attitude you are referring to among Protestant friends. It makes life very difficult for single, celibate Christians - as it is hard enough for find friends and companionship without having to deal with scorn and negativity about the presumed inferior state of non-marriage.

I’ll add this also as perhaps the other view …
It might be, in Catholic circles, that we undervalue the vocation of marriage, in the sense that we have celibate priests leading us and, from my experience, opportunities and encouragement for marriage are lessened as a result.
For a single man, for example, choosing between marriage and priesthood - there will be pressure for the celibate life. This is generally a good thing, we certainly need the vocations to the priesthood! But sometimes God does call to marriage directly and at times, our priests may be disappointed by that and/or not really know or care much about how a single man can find a proper spouse. I know quite a large number of single Catholic men – who probably all would be married by now if they were Protestants (for better or worse … LOL).
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If there’s any silver lining to being gay/SSA/etc, it’s that your vocation is already decided. No worrying about multiple forks in the road.

Convincing our (Protestant) family may be another matter though… Catholics can point to the catechism and as already mentioned, there’s rich tradition of celibacy in the Church. No such defining authority or tradition in other faith communities…

Is there a way to actually celebrate celibacy instead of it being a “lifestyle” that results from having all other options taken away and it being just a sad default?
 
EIF5A said:
If there’s any silver lining to being gay/SSA/etc, it’s that your vocation is already decided. No worrying about multiple forks in the road.

Convincing our (Protestant) family may be another matter though… Catholics can point to the catechism and as already mentioned, there’s rich tradition of celibacy in the Church. No such defining authority or tradition in other faith communities…

Is there a way to actually celebrate celibacy instead of it being a “lifestyle” that results from having all other options taken away and it being just a sad default?
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Well, I think you’re generally right on the first point. But as Pope Francis teaches, we have a “God of surprises” so sometimes forks can appear in the road that we thought was straight ahead. People think I am lying but I have a close Catholic friend who was in an active gay lifestyle for years and is now been happily married for 10 years. I am not denying any one else’s experience, but just asking for some openness on this matter.

But your question is a good one.

Yes, the best way to celebrate one’s celibacy is to make a definite, formal offering of it to God.
  1. Pray about this. Ask the Lord if He desires you to be celibate for the rest of your life.
  2. Write a vow saying that you will do this. Make as a trial for 6 months.
  3. Do this with a priest or perhaps monk in a religious order near by.
  4. At the end of the discernment - make your vow with the priest or monk present.
  5. Live the celibate life for the 6 months. At the end, renew it for another 6.
  6. Finally, make a final vow of this life to God.
Now, you have committed yourself. This is a positive statement - an offering to God.
You may find others to join you with this and have a community life of some kind.
 
I’ll add this also as perhaps the other view …
It might be, in Catholic circles, that we undervalue the vocation of marriage, in the sense that we have celibate priests leading us and, from my experience, opportunities and encouragement for marriage are lessened as a result.
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Interesting point. Or maybe there’s a little of both, I.e. some Catholics undervalue marriage and some undervalue celibacy.
 
fmchan52 said:
How would someone know if they’re culpable for their sins or not unless they go to confession?
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It’s a good point. For habitual grave sin, for instance masturbation, one should follow the advice of one’s confessor. If he says culpability is lessened, for whatever reason, he may suggest that it is not necessary to confess every single time, lest one fall into despair or scrupolosity, both of which are the devil’s trap and grave dangers to the soul in their own right.

For someone forced to do something grave at gunpoint, or a threat of violence that is very real such as have an abortion, I would think it would be fairly obvious.

For most of us though, indeed the confessional is the best place to sort these matters out.

Still it is wrong to say that all grave acts are mortally culpable, and in many cases there may be enough self-awareness to know one didn’t have full freedom of the will, or simply ignorance of the fact something is a sin.

I think having a regular confessor is a great idea, someone willing to work with you and help you configure your life to Christ in a balanced manner that avoids despair or scrupulosity.
 
Sorry if this is a little random, but you know how there are a bunch of Youtube videos with titles like "I’m Christian, but I’m not ________ "?

Well this morning I had the idea to watch the "I’m gay, but I’m not ________ "? video to see if anyone on it said “I’m gay, but I’m celibate” … only it turns out there is no such video. I find that odd. :confused:
 
Peter_J said:
Sorry if this is a little random, but you know how there are a bunch of Youtube videos with titles like "I’m Christian, but I’m not ________ "?

Well this morning I had the idea to watch the "I’m gay, but I’m not ________ "? video to see if anyone on it said “I’m gay, but I’m celibate” … only it turns out there is no such video. I find that odd. :confused:
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I agree that is odd and kind of sad.
It also may be that “gay celibate” is a rare breed – and quite admirable for that, in my view.
But much more support is needed nonetheless.
 
To be fair, they did make one called I’m Bisexual, But I’m Not…

I guess that’s the closest to what I was looking for. (If anyone’s wondering, no there isn’t a “I’m Bisexual, But I’m celibate” among the various statements.)
 
Peter_J said:
Sorry if this is a little random, but you know how there are a bunch of Youtube videos with titles like "I’m Christian, but I’m not ________ "?

Well this morning I had the idea to watch the "I’m gay, but I’m not ________ "? video to see if anyone on it said “I’m gay, but I’m celibate” … only it turns out there is no such video. I find that odd. :confused:
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m.youtube.com/watch?v=aojqsp2rtAY

m.youtube.com/watch?v=aLNt4RS7G10

The first one is kinda like you were looking for and the 2nd is just a good video of Wesley Hill talking from a traditional sexual ethic.

To be fair you won’t see many videos because the pay off is very low. One side will view you ad a traitor equivalent to a Jewish nazi sympathizer and the othwr will view you as a Trojan horse for saying gsy not ssa and being ‘too open.’ So wit seemingly getting attacked on by both sides most of us just don’t really open up because the risk reward ratio isnt worth it.
 
StudentMI said:
Yes, but one must remember the climate towards homosexual people that has long existed and still does. People can go on about how the media is ‘pushing’ gay people on others, and granted many places are welcoming nowadays, but there is still much hatred towards them. I know a number of young people who are still bullied and ostracized by their families for their orientation. The number of young gay people committing suicide is still high. I know a young lady who was part of the Gay Straight Alliance at her high school and the amount of harassment they faced was horrible.

As long as these things exist you can’t blame people for promoting gay pride.
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People, especially women, used to be sentenced to death for adultery and fornication. And in some parts of the world, they still are.

But you still don’t see adultery and fornication day parades.

I am NOT condoning bulling and expressing hatred towards gay people. That is a sin in itself.

But the answer to sin should not be more sin.
 
phil19034 said:
People, especially women, used to be sentenced to death for adultery and fornication. And in some parts of the world, they still are.

But you still don’t see adultery and fornication day parades.

I am NOT condoning bulling and expressing hatred towards gay people. That is a sin in itself.

But the answer to sin should not be more sin.
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So not being ashamed of being gay is a sin? Again, you can’t compare the two because heterosexuals are not shamed for their feelings to the same extent as gay people are in many cases. If a 25 year old tells his dad he’s tempted to cheat on his wife, it will very rarely if ever result in the son being ostracized and told to stay away from his family. But if the same guy told his dad he’s gay? There’s a lot of horror stories out there. I’ve seen some myself.

Again, until the shame and hatred towards gay people ends you will have pride movements.
 
Catholic13 said:
He was talking about the “pride parades” They are sinful.
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Which shows you didn’t read our conversation. The matter was pride and not being ashamed of who one is. He used the example of a parade as just that, an example.

But I’m curious. Why are pride parades sinful? Are they sinful because of how outrageous they’ve become or because of the very idea of gay people not being ashamed for their feelings which even the Church has said is not sinful?
 
StudentMI said:
So not being ashamed of being gay is a sin? Again, you can’t compare the two because heterosexuals are not shamed for their feelings to the same extent as gay people are in many cases. If a 25 year old tells his dad he’s tempted to cheat on his wife, it will very rarely if ever result in the son being ostracized and told to stay away from his family. But if the same guy told his dad he’s gay? There’s a lot of horror stories out there. I’ve seen some myself.

Again, until the shame and hatred towards gay people ends you will have pride movements.
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Those being “ostracized” are not usually treated that way for experiencing unwanted attractions, or temptations, but for announcing they embrace those attractions and will act in accord with them.
 
Rau said:
Those being “ostracized” are not usually treated that way for experiencing unwanted attractions, or temptations, but for announcing they embrace those attractions and will act in accord with them.
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We’ve met different people, I can tell you that. If you think gay people haven’t been thrown out of their families for simply feeling the way they do, then you must live in the nicest city in the world.
 
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