S
StudentMI
Guest
Which again shows you don’t read messages you reply to, apparently. How about you go back and read what I asked you and reply to that?
As Church Shifts, a Cardinal Welcomes Gays; They Embrace a ‘Miracle’
- Status
C
Catholic13
Guest
I just answered your question. I told you why “pride” parades are sinful. Now why dont you explain how nudity, vulgarity and lewdness are not sinful.
S
StudentMI
Guest
When you reply to my question, let me know, k?
C
Catholic13
Guest
I just answered your question. I told you why “pride” parades are sinful.
R
Rau
Guest
It seems though the other poster took the far less common instance and sough to portray it as rather more common.
This is what he said:
“If a 25 year old tells his dad he’s tempted to cheat on his wife, it will very rarely if ever result in the son being ostracized and told to stay away from his family. But if the same guy told his dad he’s gay? There’s a lot of horror stories out there.”
What happens rarely is not much of a guide to anything.
The better comparison would have been to compare the person who shacks up with a same sex partner with a person who shacks up with an opposite sext partner.
R
Rau
Guest
Who do you feel is obsessed? You have managed to post 24 times (so far) on this thread.
P
Peter_J
Guest
It is certainly very sad, any way you slice it.
This one sentence from Always Our Children: A Pastoral Message To Parents Of Homosexual Children And Suggestions For Pastoral Ministers says so much: “A shocking number of homosexual youth end up on the streets because of rejection by their families.”
This one sentence from Always Our Children: A Pastoral Message To Parents Of Homosexual Children And Suggestions For Pastoral Ministers says so much: “A shocking number of homosexual youth end up on the streets because of rejection by their families.”
Are you denying that threads about any issue slightly related to gays tend to get hundreds of responses on this board?
V
vtomc9930
Guest
My own two cents: Catholicism isn’t a popularity contest. This is not Facebook. I do believe God welcomes all, with repentance. I agree with another poster about having your cross to bear in this life…
R
Rau
Guest
Yes I did, as your post suggested that it is “others” (Catholics?) who are obsessed, and that obsession is to be measured by thread length.
Yes.
The sentence Peter quoted is exactly right. But it doesn’t assert that the children were ostracised just because they confided in their parents about unwanted same sex attractions.
That article offers much excellent advice to parents, including of course not to reject your child. It makes the distinction between rejecting the child and rejecting behavioural choices:
“Do everything possible to continue demonstrating love for your child. However, accepting his or her homosexual orientation does not have to include approving of all related attitudes and behavioral choices. In fact, you may need to challenge certain aspects of a lifestyle that you find objectionable.”
A homosexual orientation itself would never be grounds to eject a child from the home though I’m sure there are instances of it. The graver risk of ejection arises when the child insists on attitudes and behaviours intolerable to parents (eg. where there are other impressionable children in the household). And many children choose to leave home for their own reasons - eg. because they are not willing to live with parents that will not accept attitudes and behaviours that the child wants to choose.
R
Rau
Guest
The point is also that that has not been denied. My statement that some seem to reject was that it is “not usual” (see post #237) and that other scenarios are more prevalent.
A
at9009
Guest
*warning long ramble
So here is the basic flow of these types of conversations.
Gay marriage and gay-related issue has become the canary in the coal mine argument for both extreme sides of the culture war (one side the secularist who want an almost anything goes environment and the other a rigid side that is basically idolatry the nuclear family). They tend to be the most vocal and often the most aggressive and measured Catholic voices in the middle often get silenced or lost in the crowd.
The secular side will unfortunately basically call everything homophobic which leads to a ‘child that cried wolf phenomena’ and I think some on the other side are dismissive of actually abuses towards gay/ssa people for a variety of reasons. For one, when you have this culture war mentality, some wouldn’t like to admit it happens because it ‘hurts their side’ therefore should be avoided at all costs (so instead some will try to rationalize that it’s the gay person’s fault and that if they were better at being closeted they wouldn’t have had any problems). Another thing is some view those situations as not real or not really as pervasive as mentioned (often because they have suspicion of the other side of fabricating those events in order to hurt their side) so they often don’t believe it happens (and when you don’t deal with the situation personally, it is easy to not see the stuff that happens).
The most frustrating thing (at least for me), is that we are stuck at this superficial level in the debate. You have non-Catholics arguing about the morality/theology around same sex acts. For us gay/ssa Catholics, we already accept Church teaching, we just want some semblence of support in dealing with our cross (something that doesn’t happen much in our society and in all honesty many many Christian circles are not a safe environment for gathering support INCLUDING many Catholic circles). I also find this debate about ssa vs gay to be the most useless waste of time semantical debate that can be discussed but to treat it as this almost gospel level issue is damaging outreach. There is a generational difference often with terms but if you asked me (which in all honestly someone rarely asks me what I think about this issue BUT have absolutely no problem telling me what I should do, how I should talk about myself, and how I should feel ALL THE TIME), it basically means the same thing.
There is a need to help gay/ssa people feel better welcome in the Church. Whether we like it or not, the perception (which often is not the reality) is that the Church does not like gay people. A vast majority do not even know or understand that the church makes the distinction between the acts and the inclination. Many also do not understand the philosophical and theological use of words like intrinsically disordered which are also used elsewhere to describe other sinful tendencies (such as masturbation). Not to mention that a moral disordered inclination (meaning a temptation to something that is not within God’s Will) does not equal mental illness.
Another thing to add is though other Christians are not Catholics. Catholics have been lumped into to bad actions by other Christians. For most of my life growing up, the biggest message I heard about gay people from other Christians was this: they all live a hedonistic aids/drug promiscuous lifestyle, it was a choice (not even attempting to make a distinction between acts/inclination), that if they had ‘enough faith’ they’d be cured (a leftover of gospel of prosperity heresy), they must have had a distant father/overbearing mother/bad at sports/bullied/experimented etc (and if they didn’t have that in their life then they’re either lying or something). The issue with this is that not once did I hear a Catholic correct one of them (and sometimes some of these things were from other Catholics). For example, during the whole boy scout debate a few years back, I remember many people basically insinuating all gay people are pedophiles or threats to children so can’t have them around. So the message at that point (even when I was still in denial about my cross) was this: gay people will aren’t really welcome with us. We may show respect and be cordial however prefer for them to not be around us or in our lives at any point (Not hearing a single Christian offer any charity or compassion to a gay person at that point was pretty damaging to me).
Finally. If I’m honest, I don’t’ often feel welcome in the church communities. I often feel like an outcast watching what I say to avoid the issue of sexuality coming up so that I don’t become a wedge issue. I have heard homophobic comments from fellow parishioners. It can feel like I can never really be free to share my own testimony and makes it very hard for fellowship. The counter is I have had great experiences with priests. Receiving the Eucharist (when able) and confession (as needed) has been graces that have helped me carry on. BUT more often than not, I am actually discouraged by many Christians when talk about this issue (I’m closeted so they are unaware of my personal cross when discussing the issue). The general tone of the conversations always is US vs THEM and gay people are always the THEM. Also for us gay/ssa Christians, the secular world also puts us into the THEM category. So it really is almost like living in this no man’s land where neither side wants you and they are more focused on fighting each other. If those in the no man’s land end up being collateral damage in the greater culture war mentality… neither seemingly cares.
I could add more but had to cut down due to character limits
T
ToeInTheWater
Guest
I have noticed this too. And much as some posters here are essentially stating “it’s so rare for a parent to kick out their child merely for an orientation that it’s not worth discussing”, it seems there is this core assumption, on both sides, that “people who identify as gay/ssa are all unable to control their sexual urges, it’s not a question of IF they act on them, it’s only a question of WHEN. People who identify as gay, but are committed to following Church teaching, are so rare that they’re not worth discussing”.
Of course the difference is that the “gay rights” side thinks there is nothing wrong with that, and the “traditional values” side thinks that gay sex is one of the worst sins imaginable, comparable to murder, rape, etc. There really seems to be this assumption that “the vast majority of gay people have a nonrefundable ticket to Hell”. And, to get back to the actual original topic, “there’s no point to the Church reaching out those reprobates, they’re obviously lost with no chance of redemption”.
Even the article Peter J quotes seem to assume “the vast majority of teens who come out to their parents, do so because they see nothing wrong with acting on their inclinations”.
I recall some very nasty comments being posted about the victims of the Pulse nightclub tragedy assuming they were burning in Hell, though thankfully they got deleted, as do the vast majority of frankly hateful comments on gay people that get posted here. But it’s still disturbing that so many on CAF feel comfortable making such statements in the first place.
As I have said many times before, I really respect the gay posters who do put themselves in the line of fire here.
R
reggieM
Guest
Thanks for sharing your experience and reflection at9009. You’ve obviously thought well and a lot on this. I go back to your previous post and it has stayed with me for days, especially this sentence: “The view basically lead to do not learn to sublimate desires into God’s Will but rather white knuckle your way through life until you find your spouse and then have fun.” Wow - I mentally refer to that often and probably will for a long time. And it kind of relates to my comments following …
But getting back to it – what would it mean to “like gay people”? How is that played out in real life? First, I have to know someone is gay. I see a celibate man. I know nothing about him. I have a family with kids. I welcome him, say “hi”? Then what. “Hey, I notice you’re a single guy, unmarried. Are you a homosexual”? Of course, that’s absurd.
But how about this? I welcome the celibate man. Everything is fine. He visits our home and family. A year goes by. Everything is nice. Then one day, he says “Hey, just for the record I want to tell you that I am a homosexual”. Ok, now I have to tell the 6 year old boy that?
Look, it’s a matter of trust. If you’re a celibate man, you can find friends with other celibate men - there are plenty around in parishes. But most of them don’t want to know that you’re sexually attracted to men. In fact, that is a violation of trust among men. It’s essential to know that! What is a man’s identity? How does his sexuality play into that? What does it mean to have brotherly trust among men? How can men share their deepest thoughts and issues with each other without trust?
Added thought – on “white knuckling”. The danger there, of course, is that it’s fragile and it’s easy to slip downhill. That’s why Courage is a 12-step support group.
But also - “attraction”. Why is that such a big deal? We make it as if that’s some kind of sacred thing. You can only care for someone who you have “attraction” to?
In my family, going back generations – the men and women spouses had virtually no “attraction” to each other. This didn’t stop them from having big families and staying married to death. Some of these were arranged marriages where neither had an option.
Yes, I know nobody wants to go back to those bad old days - but something to think about?
I guess this is a big concern. I think honest, generous, kind-hearted Catholics will wonder about this. There are so many issues here, it’s hard to sort them out.
This is a great point and needs to be stressed. But let’s also imagine that many would want to help and provide support in dealing with that cross - but how can we do it?
Yes, I can see that. But it’s also like saying that the perception is that the Church doesn’t like Jews. Or a Jew wouldn’t feel welcome in a Catholic Church? Sure, but there is a process of conversion. Perhaps it’s like an alcoholic or drug addict. We could have some very desperate people standing in the confession line with us. Hey - we’re desperate if it comes down to it. The idea that we all have to be perfect or morally spotless in order to pray at Mass is a problem. The old Catholic fast before Communion actually helped because if someone stayed in the pew and didn’t walk up to receive, you could think they ate something within 3 hours of Mass. Now, people will think (they’re supposed to be thinking about Our Lord who is calling them to receive, but we’re talking about fallen humanity here) – “that guy must be in mortal sin!”
But getting back to it – what would it mean to “like gay people”? How is that played out in real life? First, I have to know someone is gay. I see a celibate man. I know nothing about him. I have a family with kids. I welcome him, say “hi”? Then what. “Hey, I notice you’re a single guy, unmarried. Are you a homosexual”? Of course, that’s absurd.
But how about this? I welcome the celibate man. Everything is fine. He visits our home and family. A year goes by. Everything is nice. Then one day, he says “Hey, just for the record I want to tell you that I am a homosexual”. Ok, now I have to tell the 6 year old boy that?
Look, it’s a matter of trust. If you’re a celibate man, you can find friends with other celibate men - there are plenty around in parishes. But most of them don’t want to know that you’re sexually attracted to men. In fact, that is a violation of trust among men. It’s essential to know that! What is a man’s identity? How does his sexuality play into that? What does it mean to have brotherly trust among men? How can men share their deepest thoughts and issues with each other without trust?
I don’t think you’re being honest here if you cannot understand why parents do not want adult men to be girl scout leaders.
I know what you mean, but keep in mind - it’s difficult for any celibate man to find a place in society. “Why aren’t you married”? That’s actually a good question. But I think, rather than saying “I’m only sexually attracted to men” (which when you think about it enough, opens up a lot of questions and problems), perhaps “I never found the right woman” would be better and just as true. This then opens up the idea (if anyone cared and usually they don’t) that they will find you the right woman.
Added thought – on “white knuckling”. The danger there, of course, is that it’s fragile and it’s easy to slip downhill. That’s why Courage is a 12-step support group.
But also - “attraction”. Why is that such a big deal? We make it as if that’s some kind of sacred thing. You can only care for someone who you have “attraction” to?
In my family, going back generations – the men and women spouses had virtually no “attraction” to each other. This didn’t stop them from having big families and staying married to death. Some of these were arranged marriages where neither had an option.
Yes, I know nobody wants to go back to those bad old days - but something to think about?
A
at9009
Guest
I can take credit for it, but it has helped me as well. When I was initially dealing with my cross and accepting I had to deal with it rather than just bury it, I had an unhealthy approach of just white knuckle it through life. That works temporarily but eventually you get caught in this cycle of temptations becoming harder to resist (kinda like a rollercoaster mentality). So, I think it is far more important to find ways to redirect desires into to Godly paths (when possible) and determine what is ‘fueling the fire’ of temptations (albeit I do recognize that on some level we do have to white knuckle in the short term through our temptations.
That is a good question and one that we haven’t quite figured out yet to honest. It is a discussion in a safe environment I would like to have, but unfortunately our culture doesn’t seem to want to have that discussion. The reality is that different things work for different people so having different pastoral and support approaches and finding the good/bad (and make adjustments is ideal). In my own personal experience, I found courage less than helpful but have found a support group of other celibate gay/ssa Christians to be pivotal for me. For others, Courage is a huge support. People like Wesley Hill, Eve Tushnet, and Ron Belgau are also good examples of people trying to navigate that issue (link: of related topical articles: spiritualfriendship.org/2016/07/11/ministry-that-helps-part-1/, spiritualfriendship.org/2016/07/12/ministry-that-helps-part-2/, spiritualfriendship.org/2015/09/20/spiritual-friendship-and-courage-on-the-need-for-variety-in-ministry/)
I will also address your other points when I get time today. I’m right now on break during a orientation for my clinical years in school, so kinda limited (the joys of med school lol
). But thank you so much for the engagement and trying to encourage discussion on this often very polarizing issue.
P
Peter_J
Guest
This may or may not be helpful but …
I’m relatively new to threads about orientation, but over the last decade I’ve been in quite a lot of Catholic-Orthodox and Catholic-Protestant discussions on here (and, even before that, on the Byzcath and OrthodoxChristianity forums), and if there’s one thing I’ve learned it’s that there will always be people making comments like “Protestants [resp. Catholics] are led by the Devil” and other *stuff *that’s on par with that example.
And if there’s another thing I’ve learned it’s that the only sensible policy one can have (arguably the only way, for some of us, to even survive a decade of such discussion) is: if someone posts *stuff *like that then don’t “Like, Share, and Subscribe” to him or her – or in the case of CAF, to “Ignore” him or her.
I’m sure you can see where I’m going with this, vis a vis threads about sexual orientation: if someone claims that homosexual people are a myth, or that it should be illegal for them to come out of the closet (yes, those are both real examples from CAF) then the best response is “Sorry, not my kind of thread” and then use the Ignore feature.
It’s like Ronald Reagan’s saying “Vote with your feet”. (He didn’t invent that, but he did popularize it.)
P
Peter_J
Guest
P.S. That thread (“homosexual person” myth or Truth), see the quote below, is particularly interesting to me inasmuch as it received hundreds of replies from presumably well-meaning posters … and thus drove home how badly we all need to reexamine how we decide what to read and respond to.
- Status