As Church Shifts, a Cardinal Welcomes Gays; They Embrace a ‘Miracle’

[Rau]

…You guys and gals are heroes to me: bearing an extremely large cross and following Church teaching on sexuality when both sides seem to be against you: too many Church members give off the vibe you’re complaining of, while those in the secular LGBT movement disavow you even exist as a possibility. I highly doubt I could manage it.

Well said.

 

[reggieM]

ReggieM, while I still don’t have time to go over every point you made, I did have one question.

You argue that all gay people should remain closeted, yet you also state you have a friend who is gay or at least used to be gay.

How in the world did you find out about this? Did your friend tell you, or did you find out about it from someone else? If he was the one who told you, did you find that to be a breach of trust?

And would you let your friend alone with your 6 year old son?

Hi Toe - I’m sorry I didn’t follow what you were asking here.

 

[reggieM]

See I think this is the issue you might be having is not coming from my perspective. I have heard multiple conversations from people within the parish that so and so is getting older and not dating and assume same sex attraction or if a person has particular characteristics they think they could be gay. With that possibility, some of they already distance themselves from the possible gay person.

Well, I think you offered a good answer - although it remains difficult - that your vocation is to a single life. That is the same vocation that many people have and sometimes due to hardships of various sorts: divorce, health reasons – and sometimes because that’s what God wants for the person.

It is incredibly deflating, exhausting, and frustrating. Also knowing that if some of them suspected I’d be ostracized is depressing.

Again, as above - I believe you have an answer to this that avoids the negativity you mention. Someone asks if you are dating. You reply: “No, I am serving God in a vocation to the single life”. I have suggested elsewhere that you can make this more formal by making a private vow of celibacy with a priest or even a monk at a monastery. You could then answer to the dating question: “No, I’ve made a private vow of celibacy in order to serve God”. That’s something good.

This thought not your intention reads basically like stop complaining and find others in a similar boat like you because I don’t want to deal with this issue.

I was looking for solutions to your concerns - and I think you’ve found some good support groups as you posted the links. You don’t need to join Courage, as you said there are others. I was just pointing out the reality of how difficult it is for any celibate man to find friends in our culture. A man who is a vowed celibate will be more welcome. Believe it or not, ordinary, good people do not have a natural trust of guys who are batchelors for no apparent reason. That has nothing to do with being gay.

Just because I’m gay/ssa doesn’t mean I’m attracted to every guy I see.

That’s good to know, but which ones are you attracted to? How would I know that?
Of course, I’ve said this to my gay friends and I always get the snide remark “Don’t worry Reggie, I’m not attracted to you”. Clearly, that’s avoiding the point. I’m not just speaking for me - I’m actually trying to help someone who can’t see the problem he has. The average guy doesn’t know who a gay guy is attracted to. That’s where the breakdown of trust is. I think this is important and I understand that it may not be clear as I’ve explained it, but I’m willing to discuss and explain further. You do seem open to what I’m saying and I greatly appreciate that.

In fact, in most cases there isn’t attraction and since most people are straight, it’s quite easy to not worry about attraction issue in many cases.

Again that’s helpful to know, but this assumes that gay guys are only attracted to other gay guys. From my experience, this is not the case. Even if it was true, that would be quite a defining feature. It wouldn’t be a question of SSA, but rather attraction only to other gay men. I’ve had more than one gay guy hit on me, so again I know that’s not the case. It’s an attraction to men, for whatever reason. There is taste, style, interest, physicality – but it’s an interest in having a relation with a man.

This reads like in order to keep everyone else comfortable I have to suck it up and suffer on my own because everyone else matters more and I’m not a part of the group just a problem. So better for me to suffer alone?

Again, you’ve mentioned support groups and that’s why they are needed. The Church separates, for example, religious orders by sexual orientation. Men live with men - for a reason. Virginal women don’t have men living side-by-side in the convent with them - for a reason. The reason has to do with sexual temptation. The reason the term “disordered” is used in terms of gay attraction is that it is an internal conflict. As I said, I have gay friends who will not go to a public gym because showering with men is a temptation. So, should they go in the women’s locker room because there’s no temptation there? Clearly, it’s an isolating problem. As long as a man has a temptation towards sex with another man and it remains a drive within him, then he will have a serious problem in ordinary community life. Yes, that’s obviously a cross, but it’s like an alcoholic living in a culture where drinking is the norm. He will be isolated. So, he has to find a sober community. That’s the kind of community a SSA man needs to find and participate in. Courage, Wesley Hill’s advice - others.

 

[reggieM]

Sexuality is far more encompassing than who I’m attracted to and I really don’t feel like you have any real grasp of understanding of that tbh. It feels like in many cases, people within the chruch want to reduce me down to who I’m attracted to when there is more to my cross then that. an example that is not perfect but helpful is a blind person experience of being blind is a whole heck of a lot more than just not being able to see.

I will admit that if you are saying that your sexuality transcends the fact that you’re sexually attracted to men – then I don’t have a grasp of that. Because for me, that’s the issue. That’s the cross and the problem. As I see it, your sexuality is defined entirely by this characteristic. You want to have this bond with men. I mentioned the bond of brotherhood or the spiritual bond of friendship among men. That is something different. I’m sure that is present in your life as it is in mine. But the movement from that to a desire for a sexual union with a man is where I’m looking at the question of attraction and desire and what that all means, and why good men like yourself are suffering. I’ve encountered this with my own gay friends - some moving away from SSA, one at least considers himself ex-Gay now. Others moving actually towards Militant Gay Pride from a closeted view. So, it’s a spectrum and I care about all of these men. What I just ask for is as much honesty as they can. I mean, if you’re going to express your sexual interests, then please be willing to look at where they are heading, what they might mean, and why they might not be what you think they are.

Not an issue I was talking about …

I assumed you were talking about straight men being girl scout leaders and that you had no problem with that. I was trying to explain that most parents would find your view to be radically dangerous and wrong, and that is why it is frowned upon.

The honest truth would be to say marriage is not in my vocation. If they ask why I should be able to be honest without people wanting to treat me like a social pariah or lecture me for somehow flaunting my sexuality.

On the first point, yes that sounds very good. On the second, if they ask why - you can be honest in many ways, but if you feel the need to divulge everything I don’t know what you would best expect as a response from people, but it’s a matter of trial and error and I would guess after a while nobody would care that much.

So, I should force a marriage that isn’t my vocation to a woman who I could offer nothing more than a sibling type love because I want to appear normal and have family?

As I suggested earlier, a private vow of celibacy would be a good thing. You could post something that like that on your CAF signature. Not all gay celibate men have discerned a calling to the single life. They could find marriage.

Regarding whether that is a “sibling type of love” and that it is merely a question of “appearing normal” - neither of those aspects are necessarily a part of it, but even if they were there’s no sin involved there, and a lot of happiness can result for people who choose that path. True, it’s not your calling but I hope you would be open to other gay men who do find that choice.

I haven’t read the links you provided yet but I will do that later today.

Marriage is not my vocation, that is clear after many hours of prayerful discernment and yes my cross of being gay was a major factor in choosing to be celibate.

Ok, yes - got that. Thanks. I had not know that before so it wasn’t a matter of misunderstanding but rather not knowing about you.

The issue is that by and large though celibacy is more or less unchosen, it is my vocation. Culture and MANY CATHOLICS do a pathetic job at supporting those in celibate vocations (it is one of the reasons many people who are divorced marry anyway despite it being against church teaching.)

I wouldn’t say it’s just Catholics who don’t support celibate vocations (and we do certainly support priests and religious), but much of this comes with a breakdown of extended family life where people who have, let’s say, “minority vocations” (which a celibate single life it) do not have a natural group of people around them, where they would have at one time among cousins, siblings, in-laws, etc.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts at9009.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

If I may offer my thoughts on this - it seems entirely to be expected that a gay person will share that information with people in his life. So I agree that “remaining closeted” (which I take to mean keeping the matter entirely secret) ought not to be necessary and I could imagine that as truly burdensome. The question to my mind is to what extent one should need to, or should feel free to, share this information more widely.

Perhaps those who are arguing gays should be “closeted” are assuming that “of course, coming out to family members and close friends is an exception to the rule”. If that’s the case that doesn’t seem quite as unreasonable.

However, I certainly recall past CAF topics on this issue, where posters have claimed that gays shouldn’t come out to anyone except a priest in a confessional. I even recall directly asking a poster, even using her preferred “SSA” verbiage, what she’d expect her own children to do if they suffer from that cross, and she stated “I’d expect them to keep that to themselves”.

She also was clear on her goal of shielding her children as long as possible from the idea that gay people even exist, and she seemed to long for the “good old days” when “gay people stayed in the closet and good Christian parents didn’t have to explain such a disgusting sin to their children”.

I certainly don’t think it would be prudent for all gay people to be “out and proud” and sadly, many gay people including at9009 even now find it prudent to remain closeted even to their family members, for if they do come out they know they will be shunned.

What I do think is an invalid reason for demanding gay people remain silent about their cross, is essentially “Gay people give me the heebie-jeebies, just thinking about the disgusting sin of sodomy makes me retch. Gay people should accommodate my tender sensibilities by staying in the closet”.

That’s another difference between many Christian’s approach to gays and their approach to people with other crosses and thorns when it comes to sin. Sure, adulterers aren’t holding pride parades, but I’ve never come across anyone stating or implying “just thinking about the disgusting sin of adultery makes me retch”. Or “just thinking about the disgusting sin of wife beating makes me retch”.

Hi Toe - I’m sorry I didn’t follow what you were asking here.

It seems we are extremely far apart on this issue, and I really have no idea how to make myself more clear but I will try. Your statements seem contradictory, you argue that gay people should be closeted, yet you also refer to a gay friend in your life. I am just trying to figure out how you came to know your friend had this cross, and as you seem to think it is somehow “wrong” to one man to disclose this to another (hopefully you at least give an exception to a confessor or support group), does that you mean you had to forgive him for his error?

ETA: I read your latest replies to at9009, and I am still confused. So, gays should stay in the closet, so their straight friends don’t have to worry about whether their gay friends are attracted to them? And what is so threatening about that to you? It seems according to the same mindset, men and women shouldn’t be friends either because there is always a risk of an illicit attraction developing.

And yet despite all that you have gay friends…truly puzzling.

 

[reggieM]

Not in exactly the same way as straight Catholics who embrace celibacy, but not in a greater or lesser way.

Yes, and therefore there are other heroes who may not as readily get the recognition and may also find it more difficult to find support groups.

 

[reggieM]

It is abundantly clear that in this forum by and large, gay/ssa people are not really welcome unless they never mention they are gay, suffer in silence, and basically disappear so every else can pretend they don’t exist. It is clear that my acceptance of being a member of the church community to them is completely dependent on my ability to stay closeted and any and all discrimination would be apparently my fault for not being closeted enough.

But is it really the best thing to use the notion of “closeted” when you are fighting against temptations towards a sinful activity? What would “uncloseted” mean for you and how would it play out in real life? Why would you talk about that with people and what would you expect them to say in return? Would you feel the need to tell people about all the temptations you are having at any given moment?
I would think you would want that to just go away.
We don’t flirt with temptations or feed them. Through prayer, (the Lord’s Prayer in fact) we ask that they are driven away. It may be that temptations last a lifetime - sure. But it should never be because we opened ourselves to them, or identified ourselves with them.

 

[reggieM]

It seems we are extremely far apart on this issue, and I really have no idea how to make myself more clear but I will try.

It’s one of the unfortunate consequences of this kind of discussion is that it is difficult to express these things at times, and it is easy to misunderstand one another. So, instead of reaching a better understanding and agreement, sometimes people will move in the other directions away. I knew there was that risk when I offered my thoughts on this and I trusted that people who disagree with me would understand (and that I would understand them). As you point out, that doesn’t always happen and I’m sorry that is the case. It’s not what I intended.

 

[reggieM]

at9009 - I did find those links on the Spiritual Friendship site helpful. Thanks.

I liked this passage:

To live celibacy well requires in some ways a deeper healing, and a more dramatic inner transformation than opposite sex marriage would require. Although our pursuit of chastity—whether in marriage or in single life—begins with difficult self-denial, and often involves ongoing seasons of deep struggle, we shouldn’t think of celibacy primarily as a “booby prize”: the consolation given to the losers whose prayers for “healing” (understood solely in terms of orientation change) go unanswered. Nor should we view the sometimes gradual but resolute approach to Christian perfection in the life of those whose orientation has not changed as evidence that God has not healed. To do so involves a radical misunderstanding of vocation and of the work of the Holy Spirit.

That’s a common idea in Catholic spirituality among the great teachers. It’s not merely that celibacy requires a greater transformation – but it allows for it and can (not necessarily does) facilitate it.

But it’s important to realize that celibacy is a somewhat “unworldly” (or non-worldly) calling. It is a vocation that moves one to a more challenging spiritual path, and as a result, requires more detachment.

A man vowed to celibacy will have more temptations to deal with and no opportunity for a legitimate expression of sexuality (in marriage). This can be transcended with other fruitful activities to replace that, but it is a greater challenge than marriage would be.

 

[Peter_J]

Rau, being short on time I’ll just comment on the idea of some people being disgusted by the mere existence of gay people: my experience suggests that yes that is the case – I mean in the sense that they have disgust toward gay people and not just gay sex.

P.S. That aside, I like many of the things in your posts here.

 

[at9009]

This sort of discussion always strikes me as incredibly intrusive. Whilst I can understand how a person might innocently stumble into this with you, I am amazed at the directness with which some questions are put by people who have not yet established the suitable close relationship that allows deeply personal matters to be addressed.

It is extremely common and eventually my non-denials or deflections will be a dead give away about my orientation anyway. I can only use the excuse of busy with school for so long before people begin to suspect and I have seen enough people start to treat people differently simply for suspecting. It’s not right but its a little to common.

I suppose the reciprocal of my point above is that I’d have thought this would be a fairly personal thing for you, and thus not the sort of thing you’d share openly with anyone but the closest of friends. [Of course, that thought will be twisted by some to suggest that I am suggesting there is shame attached to SSA. No, that’s not the point. There are many personal things we don’t share.

It is more than sharing. I honestly probably wouldn’t share it with 99% of people. The issue is this almost mandated closeted environment that is out there where I’m expected to act a certain way and the pressure of worrying if someone found out is exhausting. I want to get the point where if it came up I could talk about it and it would be no big deal. I’m tired of being on constant guard and feeling like I’m walking on egg shells.

Our crosses shouldn’t be something we have to hide. Every Christian struggles with something and it would be far better if we could have radical openness and be vulnerable with eachother so that in our time of need, we can support one another. Rather it often feels like we have this culture of keeping up with the Joneses Christian style where everyone tries to act like everything is perfect and put on masks all the time.

Thinking generally - do we have a right to answer any and every question put to us directly and honestly? I’m not sure we do. It does not follow we are forced to lie. What stands out for me is that some people seem to lack the sensitivity to not probe when a person gives an honest answer but without specifics, or which is some other way does not satisfy the questioner. Why should they have a right to know precisely why you are not “pursuing” women, and should you really say exactly why? [Is this a matter where some discreetness is called for? Secular society at large certainly screams “no”. If what’s on TV is a guide, nothing can’t be shared!]

A non-answer in many cases is an answer.

That could be exactly right. But people are different. There is a poster on CAF who experiences SSA, struggles with it, but is able to relate happily and sexually to his wife. Obviously his situation is not one of exclusive

attraction to the same sex.

I agree with your general remarks that living the single life is often not as well accepted as it should be.

That’s definitely something to keep in mind and I view it as part of the process of discernment. It does seem that for the majority of gay/ssa people, marriage isn’t part of their vocation, but for some it is. The problem is trying to force a vocation on someone because that is what is expected rather than what they are called for. I posted in a different thread a series of interviews from gay/ssa people with their spouses in mixed orientation marriages (the links are listed below)

spiritualfriendship.org/2015/02/03/a-simple-reason-to-get-married-we-were-in-love/
spiritualfriendship.org/2015/02/10/brian-what-makes-you-tick/
spiritualfriendship.org/2015/01/26/wait-a-minute-a-mixed-what/
spiritualfriendship.org/2013/09/24/orientation-change-vs-mixed-orientation-marriage/
spiritualfriendship.org/2013/10/04/further-considerations-on-marriage/
[/quote]

 

[at9009]

Let me go on the record as stating that I wish that homosexual people living chaste lives were more prominent in the Church. You guys and gals are heroes to me: bearing an extremely large cross and following Church teaching on sexuality when both sides seem to be against you: too many Church members give off the vibe you’re complaining of, while those in the secular LGBT movement disavow you even exist as a possibility. I highly doubt I could manage it. I hardly ever post in these threads because, well, they don’t usually go well, but this seemed like a good time to state that there are some rather silent folks out here admiring you!

I’ve posted this before, but I’ve long been happy that my diocesan newspaper published a roundtable interview with five people pulling it off: Living with same-sex attraction

Thank you and I appreciate your support, but I wouldn’t want to call myself a hero. I think all CAtholics realize that it’s not easy to follow Christ. We all have trials and tribulations and we all have a cross to carry. I think we need to be more vocal about celebrating those who are in fidelity with the church despite its hardships.

Like for example, give support and praise for the couple who doesn’t use contraception, support the person who lives celibately following a divorce showing them love and support to know they are not alone, support/love/encourage those who are recovering from addition, support those who have come back to the faith after falling away.

We all have our own prodigal son story (and at times we all sometimes feel like the older brother). However, we can all work better at offering genuine fellowship so that we can feel like a family and be vulnerable with each other and grow in faith together. Just my rambling thoughts though.

 

[Peter_J]

^^ I think you both have great thoughts there w.r.t. the whole “coming out of the closet” business.

I don’t want to butt in, but I’ll add that there’s a two-edged sword: that is, sometimes people decide on behalf of the gay person that he/she should come out, and sometimes people decide on behalf of the gay person that he/she should not come out. (Both of which illustrate how prone human nature is towards arrogance IMO.)

 

[Peter_J]

…
support the person who lives celibately following a divorce showing them love and support to know they are not alone
…

Indeed.

And it occurs to me that, out of straight people, the divorced-and-celibate Catholics might be the best able to understand what it’s like for gay people who choose to follow Catholic teaching.

 

[reggieM]

I think we need to be more vocal about celebrating those who are in fidelity with the church despite its hardships.

You may be touching on another complex problem here.

First - the only ones who can be vocal in that celebration are those who share belief in the fidelity. Sadly, that is not all of the parish members these days.

Secondly - and here is where it gets complicated … when we need (sadly often) a minority who do not get enough support as it is, to do the vocal celebrating along with that comes unintended and unwanted problems of fallen human nature, namely …

We celebrate those who keep faithful and are persecuted by those who are not.
Yes, “bless those who persecute you”, but I did mention fallen human nature.

So, we run into situations where in order to truly celebrate those who live by the teachings of Christ, we have to turn against those, in our own parish, who reject, ignore, downplay or or otherwise disobey the teachings.

Can you see where I’m going with this?

Eventually, it becomes more difficult to compromise. Additionally, various outreaches in certain areas can bleed over and become tolerance for infidelity to the teachings and eventually acceptance for a wide range of behaviors in the name of that same tolerance.

I don’t have an answer here - just noting what I’ve actually seen and hoping to offer some perspective that can help.

This is why, for me, I find some things are better left in the confessional, spiritual direction, therapy, self-help group than in a situation where we are trying to rally support from the rank and file.

But it depends also on what one is looking for from your parish community and whether that is a reasonable expectation given the make-up of the people there.

 

[reggieM]

I’ll add that CAF was founded by people who fought against liberalism in the Catholic dioceses back in the days when it was widespread and a serious threat. In my view, it is the same today, but the point is that if you’re encountering friction here, it’s because of the nature of this particular forum where people fought a lonely battle for orthodox teaching and faithful practice - often against what leadership was doing.

Obviously, a more liberal Catholic forum will have a different attitude and response to gay Catholics. As I see it though, that only helps on a surface level of friendliness and not for those who want to live the teachings of the Faith.

 

[Rau]

I think we need to be more vocal about celebrating those who are in fidelity with the church despite its hardships.

Like for example, give support and praise for the couple who doesn’t use contraception, support the person who lives celibately following a divorce showing them love and support to know they are not alone, support/love/encourage those who are recovering from addition, support those who have come back to the faith after falling away.

We all have our own prodigal son story (and at times we all sometimes feel like the older brother). However, we can all work better at offering genuine fellowship so that we can feel like a family and be vulnerable with each other and grow in faith together. Just my rambling thoughts though.

I think these are worthy examples of “love thy neighbor”, rather than a list of celebrations to be put into the parish calendar as Reggie’s response seems to suggest. A public celebration of the state of our souls must wait for heaven. Which is not to say we can’t have Masses for the sick, the single, the married, parents, retreats and so on.

And of course we can address many of these things in Apologetics too.

 

[Rau]

Rau, being short on time I’ll just comment on the idea of some people being disgusted by the mere existence of gay people: my experience suggests that yes that is the case – I mean in the sense that they have disgust toward gay people and not just gay sex.

P.S. That aside, I like many of the things in your posts here.

Is that “disgust” manifest solely on the basis that the persons experience same sex attractions, or that they embrace them and partake? I’ve never witnessed the former and perhaps that’s because secular society understands the notion of gayness to comprise both.

 

[StudentMI]

Is that “disgust” manifest solely on the basis that the persons experience same sex attractions, or that they embrace them and partake? I’ve never witnessed the former and perhaps that’s because secular society understands the notion of gayness to comprise both.

I’ve see both, personally. Including on here.

 

[Peter_J]

Is that “disgust” manifest solely on the basis that the persons experience same sex attractions, or that they embrace them and partake? I’ve never witnessed the former and perhaps that’s because secular society understands the notion of gayness to comprise both.

Okay that’s fair. I suppose there are cases where someone comes out of the closet and simultaneously reveals that he or she is sexually active.

I guess to be clear I should have said “There are people who have disgust not just toward gay sex, but toward gay people just for being gay.”